Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
Zooming is irrelevant.

The Codex says "if the Stormraven explodes" while Zooming or Hovering, it doesn't matter, the Stormraven is exploding and thus the Codex should overrule the BRB.

However if folks want to play it the "Crash and Burn" rule way, then also consider this. The Dreadnaught is NOT "within" the transport but is actually on the outside held by the rear grapples. So the Str10 hit should not apply to him as the rule says, "If the Flyer is also a Transport,
any models within suffer a Strength l0 hit with no armour saves allowed."

Guess it cannot use the assault ramp than.

In relation to the question at hand, your point being is?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The S4 and S10 hits aren't mutually exclusive. You're told by the BA (or GK) Codex to take an S4 hit to your Dreadnought's Rear Armour. You're told by the BRB to take an S10 hit to everyone embarked on the transport. Where, in the Blood Angels (or GK) Codex does it say that the S4 overrides the S10? It isn't a conflict, so there's no Codex>BRB to apply. You take both hits.

Again, a vehicle doesn't explode twice as far the game is concerned.

The Codex tells you what damage is dealt to the DN if the Stormraven explodes and the BRB tells you what damage is dealt if a zooming flyer (transport) explodes. Being that the codex is specific to the Stormraven, irrespective of status (zooming or hovering) there exists a conflict with respect to what damage should a DN embarked on a Stormraven take if the Stormraven explodes while zooming.

40k-noob wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
Zooming is irrelevant.

The Codex says "if the Stormraven explodes" while Zooming or Hovering, it doesn't matter, the Stormraven is exploding and thus the Codex should overrule the BRB.

However if folks want to play it the "Crash and Burn" rule way, then also consider this. The Dreadnaught is NOT "within" the transport but is actually on the outside held by the rear grapples. So the Str10 hit should not apply to him as the rule says, "If the Flyer is also a Transport,
any models within suffer a Strength l0 hit with no armour saves allowed."

Guess it cannot use the assault ramp than.

In relation to the question at hand, your point being is?

That your statement is ludicrous? The dreadnought is embarked on the Storm Raven. The fluff of how it's carried is irrelevant.

So Dreadnoughts are not embarked in Stormravens, Necrons are not embarked in Nightscythes, is there anything else where a unit is embarked, but not really because the fluff says otherwise?

If we are going to argue one may as well get them all out in the open and argue them all.

Actually Firewarriors aren't embarked in Devilfish either. There is nothing saying so, but I really don't want them to die in an explosion.

Also DE aren't actually in any of their vehicles, they're quite clearly modeled hanging on the outside, so they should only take a S3 hit for explodes like everyone else outside.

40k-noob wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The S4 and S10 hits aren't mutually exclusive. You're told by the BA (or GK) Codex to take an S4 hit to your Dreadnought's Rear Armour. You're told by the BRB to take an S10 hit to everyone embarked on the transport. Where, in the Blood Angels (or GK) Codex does it say that the S4 overrides the S10? It isn't a conflict, so there's no Codex>BRB to apply. You take both hits.

Again, a vehicle doesn't explode twice as far the game is concerned.

The Codex tells you what damage is dealt to the DN if the Stormraven explodes and the BRB tells you what damage is dealt if a zooming flyer (transport) explodes. Being that the codex is specific to the Stormraven, irrespective of status (zooming or hovering) there exists a conflict with respect to what damage should a DN embarked on a Stormraven take if the Stormraven explodes while zooming.

It doesn't have to explode twice. One rule says you take an S4 hit to the Rear Armour. One rule says you take an S10 hit. How are they in conflict?

40k-noob wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
Zooming is irrelevant.

The Codex says "if the Stormraven explodes" while Zooming or Hovering, it doesn't matter, the Stormraven is exploding and thus the Codex should overrule the BRB.

However if folks want to play it the "Crash and Burn" rule way, then also consider this. The Dreadnaught is NOT "within" the transport but is actually on the outside held by the rear grapples. So the Str10 hit should not apply to him as the rule says, "If the Flyer is also a Transport,
any models within suffer a Strength l0 hit with no armour saves allowed."

Guess it cannot use the assault ramp than.

In relation to the question at hand, your point being is?

Sorry I thought it was obvious, I was just saying you're wrong.

It's embarked in the transport. The fluff doesn't matter. It takes a str 10 hit if zooming/explosion

Happyjew wrote:
So Dreadnoughts are not embarked in Stormravens, Necrons are not embarked in Nightscythes, is there anything else where a unit is embarked, but not really because the fluff says otherwise?

If we are going to argue one may as well get them all out in the open and argue them all.

Nonono - they're both outside and embarked at the same time. The state just depends on the circumstance of the observation.

Even if the fluff is rules it carries the "Dreadnought in its rear grapples".
I think that qualifies it to be within the transport as far as Crash and Burn are concerned.

As far as I'm concerned there's no codex/rules conflict, so there's no reason not to have both rules come into effect, if a zooming flyer crashes with the Dread on board it takes a Str 10 hit, furthermore, if a Stormraven explodes with the Dread on board it takes a Str 4 hit to it's rear armour.

Why can't a single event trigger two similar conditional actions?

If a rule from the core rules inflicted a penalty when a certain event happened, but a rule from the codex grants a bonus when that same event happens, do you cite codex > core and just totally ignore the penalty, merely because another event has triggered?

The RAW here seems abundantly clear that the dreadnought suffers both results.

If it explodes Str 4 hit to back of armour happens.

If it explodes Str 10 hit to somewhere happens.

How are these not in conflict?

 DeathReaper wrote:
If it explodes Str 4 hit to back of armour happens.

If it explodes Str 10 hit to somewhere happens.

How are these not in conflict?

Because they aren't exclusive. The S10 hit doesn't cancel out the S4 hit. If you got hit with a Melta gun and a Plasma gun in the same shooting phase, you don't just ignore one of them.

And the S10 is assumed to hit rear (weak) armor because the Dread is facing away and the direction from the codex on where the Dread takes hits, even though it's a different hit entirely. Personally I'd argue that if the top of a tank/walker is the front armor, then the bottom would be rear.

You take a hit because of the explodes result. The BRB says this hit is Str 10, the Codex says this hit is Str 4...

 DeathReaper wrote:
You take a hit because of the explodes result. The BRB says this hit is Str 10, the Codex says this hit is Str 4...

You take a S10 because the BRB says you take a S10 hit from being in a flying transport that crashes.
The Codex says you take a S4 hit from being in an exploding Storm raven.
The Dex doesn't say "Take a S4 hit instead"
It doesn't say "Ignore other effects of an explosion result"
It doesn't say "This is the only hit the Dread will take"

I will agree that it definately needs an FAQ to clear the whole mess up, but you can't ignore an entire rule because you have something very similar in the codex.

 DeathReaper wrote:
You take a hit because of the explodes result. The BRB says this hit is Str 10, the Codex says this hit is Str 4...

Yep Codex says str 4 when SR pops
BGB says str 10 when a Zoomer pops

Not really a conflict as both can apply.

Seeing as how the codex doesn't state the Stormraven is a flier, its kind of pointless to keep saying "Codex overrides BRB". If that's your argument, then the Stormraven can only hover.

But I agree with the majority here, S10 hit if zooming (maybe to a random facing?), S4 hit to the rear if in Hover mode.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
Seeing as how the codex doesn't state the Stormraven is a flier, its kind of pointless to keep saying "Codex overrides BRB". If that's your argument, then the Stormraven can only hover.

But I agree with the majority here, S10 hit if zooming (maybe to a random facing?), S4 hit to the rear if in Hover mode.

How about we roll for which side? Not dice, I mean literally roll the dreadnought. Whichever side in ends on takes the hit.
Treat top armor as side armor value (barrage rule), and bottom armor as rear armor value (clustermine rule)
Sure, you could just use a D6 (1 front, 2 top, 3 left side, 4 right side, 5 bottom, 6 rear) but what's the fun in that?

Oh, and just to poke the dog, since the S10 hit isn't from a weapon, you don't add the strength to the D6 for armor pen. Now, argue for 20 pages and lock the thread.


-Matt

I like your style.

That said, Correlation does not imply causation.