Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Got curious reading about "Reign of Blood " of Goge Vandire.
He is accused of being paranoid megalomaniac, who engaged in power grabbing, mass executions and torturing people for fun.
But hey, all those things are routinely exhibited by respected imperial officials with enough power.
Megalomania and power grabbing seems to be a standard issue among 50% of Imperial governors, Navy admirals and Ecclesiarchy leaders;
Paranoia is actually praised (“suspicious mind is a healthy mind”);
Mass executions seem to be a daily occurrence on imperial worlds, performed alternately by Arbiters, Governmental forces and Inquisition;
Torturing is also seems to be routinely engaged everyone with power to do so, for a mix of information/punishment/LuLz in varying proportions.
So, was the main reason for Vandire’s villainous reputation (when compared to “respectable” people who engage in similar activities) is that he was deposed?
Like in real life, its always the loosing side that gets judged for War Crimes, irrespectively of who actually bombed more civilians and committed more atrocities?
And nation leaders being declared “murderous tyrants” if deposed but remain respectable “dear leaders” if manage to hold in power.
As old Russian saying goes “Rebellions never succeed, because if they do they are called revolutions”.

He was always to busy, even to die apparently

Vandire was a High Lord of Terra and claimed the Firt position among them, and then he killed the leader of the Ecclesiarchy and took command of them.

I suppose it is a matter of how the majority perceives the leadership. The aforementioned mass executions, torture, etc that occur daily throughout the Imperium are accepted, even praised by the general populace because they are directed against disenfranchised minorities such as heretics and mutants. The problem with Vandire was that his actions pushed more and more people "over the edge". Everyone has their breaking point, and with the decades of ever-escalating measures of oppression I suppose a subtle shift went through the abused population that caused acceptance and acquiescence to slowly turn into resentment and finally - after an antipole arised in the person of charismatic preacher Sebastian Thor - resistance.

You can probably witness this development in most draconic regimes of our real world, too. Few of them start out as oppressive as they appear in their final years; it is a battle of wills between a despot and his people. It may have even started out with very minor mistakes on part of a sometimes benign government, but once the fuse is lightened it is difficult to impossible to extinguish it again, especially once a tyrant exerts martial force rather than seeking to compromise and the people start to see insurgents as freedom fighters.

So, I'd say that in Vandire's case it is a combination of things:
- megalomanic construction projects, bloody military campaigns and wasteful management imposing more and more hardships on the population
- draconic measures taken to suppress or punish the people whenever they do not meet the demands
- charismatic opponent manages to convince said people to rise up in arms

On a smaller scale, I wouldn't be surprised if stuff like this happens every single year on some isolated world in the Imperium. The oppressed cult that had spread through the lower castes attempting to gain control, impoverished workers rebelling against draconic taxes, enslaved mutants escaping from their work camps and vowing revenge. The list goes on.

If I shall draw any comparison to Goge I would go for Ivan the Terrible. The first part of both men's reign were not terrible by any means. But later things happened, and things got rather bad. For Ivan's case it was the death of his beloved wife, for Goge, the case is murky.

Also the corruption slowly crept into the holy Scholas that raised the orphan of the Emperor. The pretty ended up as entertainment for the nobility and the strong as slaves and so on.

For some reason, because of this thread, I'm thankful I got into 40k through the Horus Heresy novels, otherwise I might have ended up backing a non-Imperial faction.

Vandire himself seems to be based heavily off dramatized versions of Caligula/Nero.

Goge Vandire is one of the funnyest cahracters in 40k universe because of this:

"The Adeptus Astartes and the Adeptus Mechanicus, both of which had avoided interfering with Vandire's reign, began voicing support for Thor's movement, and demanded that the High Lords indict Vandire as a traitor. In response, Vandire dissolved the council of High Lords, and ordered his Ecclesiarchy forces to attack these new threats. However, this was a suicidal prospect, as the Space Marines and Adeptus Mechanicus were simply too powerful; many officers refused to obey, only to be executed by Vandire. When the Ecclesiarchal forces finally attacked, it became clear to all that Vandire had betrayed the Imperium and would need to be removed by force."

The only guy I know that have officially declared war on both Adeptus Astartes and Adeptus Mechanicus. You have to be suicidal brave to do this.

Brother Captain Alexander wrote:The only guy I know that have officially declared war on both Adeptus Astartes and Adeptus Mechanicus. You have to be suicidal brave to do this.

Technically, the Imperial Navy should be able to wipe the floor with both organisations. On ground, though, a massed team-up of genetically engineered shock troops and giant Titans would be nigh-impossible to stop without orbital bombardment, chiefly because they complement each other so nicely. It is probably only due to the impressive defenses of the Imperial Palace that Vandire's bodyguard managed to hold that place for several months against multiple Chapters and the Martian Tech-Guard.

The tricky thing about fighting the AdMech is that, by this point, the Imperium is as dependent on the Tech-Priests as they depend on the Imperium. When all vehicle, weapons and ammunition production as well as maintenance is handled by people loyal to your enemy and you have no way to replace them, I imagine it's a pretty bad basis for a military campaign. Surely, some Tech-Priests would cave in to bribery and brute force in order to preserve their own lives, but I would expect lots of sabotage in the Imperial war machinery.

Yeah the Imperial part really got the short end of the stick there Lynata. Thinking on it. The AdMech could probably function better without the IOM.

 Lynata wrote:

Brother Captain Alexander wrote:The only guy I know that have officially declared war on both Adeptus Astartes and Adeptus Mechanicus. You have to be suicidal brave to do this.

Technically, the Imperial Navy should be able to wipe the floor with both organisations. On ground, though, a massed team-up of genetically engineered shock troops and giant Titans would be nigh-impossible to stop without orbital bombardment, chiefly because they complement each other so nicely. It is probably only due to the impressive defenses of the Imperial Palace that Vandire's bodyguard managed to hold that place for several months against multiple Chapters and the Martian Tech-Guard.

The tricky thing about fighting the AdMech is that, by this point, the Imperium is as dependent on the Tech-Priests as they depend on the Imperium. When all vehicle, weapons and ammunition production as well as maintenance is handled by people loyal to your enemy and you have no way to replace them, I imagine it's a pretty bad basis for a military campaign. Surely, some Tech-Priests would cave in to bribery and brute force in order to preserve their own lives, but I would expect lots of sabotage in the Imperial war machinery.

Few battles in 40K are won by naval power alone. It's always been a setting where it comes down to the infantry man to win it.

Naval power wasn't going to be very relevant in the Terran Crusade. Nobody was going to bombard the soil of Terra....

The problem is that the Imperial navy as we know it doesn't exist in this time period. In throry it does, but not in application.

Vandire is the hig lord or the administratum and Ecclesiarchy. His word is law, if you defy him you simultaneously defy the Imperium and the Emperor.

H also has military forces loyal only to him, in the frateris militia ang with their own naval assets loyal to him.

Even if you were a disenchanted naval captain or Admiral, you are expendable and you could still be executed on trumped up charges. To further complicate things your not really sure who you can count on support and who hopes to further the positions by supporting those on Terra.

Its not a clear cut case, especially since Vandire's lackeys had their own fleets.

Vandire was even more Paranoid and power grabbing them the average Imperial official. Just shows how extreme he was.

 Eetion wrote:
The problem is that the Imperial navy as we know it doesn't exist in this time period. In throry it does, but not in application.

Vandire is the hig lord or the administratum and Ecclesiarchy. His word is law, if you defy him you simultaneously defy the Imperium and the Emperor.

H also has military forces loyal only to him, in the frateris militia ang with their own naval assets loyal to him.

Even if you were a disenchanted naval captain or Admiral, you are expendable and you could still be executed on trumped up charges. To further complicate things your not really sure who you can count on support and who hopes to further the positions by supporting those on Terra.

Its not a clear cut case, especially since Vandire's lackeys had their own fleets.

Wasn't this around M36? Imperial Navy was the same around then as M41 afaik.

The issue was that he was head of the Ecclesiarchy and a bunch of other things.

And that the Excclesiarchy had its own army and navy, so he was getting around the seperation of powers.


Thats what led to the Ecclesiarchy losing the ability to maintain men at arms. And they got around it with the Sisters of Battle.

Vandire alienated the Departmento Munitorum and thus the IG/Navy through his craziness. His powerbase was the Ecclesiarchy, Officio Assassinorum, Astra Telepathica, Brides of the Emperor, and Frateris Templars.

 Grey Templar wrote:
The issue was that he was head of the Ecclesiarchy and a bunch of other things.

And that the Excclesiarchy had its own army and navy, so he was getting around the seperation of powers.


Thats what led to the Ecclesiarchy losing the ability to maintain men at arms. And they got around it with the Sisters of Battle.

I thought there was no seperation of powers before this. This is what caused the Church to not be allowed to have men under arms.

In my opinion, Vandire wasn't killed because he was a poor leader. By the Imperium's standards, he was a great leader. He was killed because on the way to the top, he made enemies of some very important and very powerful people.

It's all about scale.


That, and I think you're over-grimdarking it with the suggestion that those things are "normal" in 40K.

Yeah, they happen, but the accepted social norms in 40K aren't really that bad, lol. I mean, sometimes it's hard to see when Inquisitors and Space Marines run around nuking entire planets from orbit (since that's the only way to be sure), and the individual human life isn't worth all that much, but in nearly all stories that feature characters or events where they are murdercizing people, it's usually pointed out as being out of the ordinary, and bad. Mass-executions being commonplace is pretty unsupported, and while torture is certainly endorsed as an interrogation method, taking pleasure in it is still an aberration.

It's just that the power hungry murderous bastard is an easy stock archetype for these stories, so it gets used somewhat often in settings like 40K.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
The issue was that he was head of the Ecclesiarchy and a bunch of other things.

And that the Excclesiarchy had its own army and navy, so he was getting around the seperation of powers.


Thats what led to the Ecclesiarchy losing the ability to maintain men at arms. And they got around it with the Sisters of Battle.

I thought there was no seperation of powers before this. This is what caused the Church to not be allowed to have men under arms.

There had been seperation of powers. The Imperial Army was split into the Navy and Guard. Previously, the Army and Navy had been one entity.

The Adeptus Astartes were also split into Chapters, and some debate as to the limits of Astartes Navel assets.


The Church didn't exist for quite a while after this seperation, thus there were no rules on it.

After Vandire, they were forbidden from maintaining Men under arms. Which they kinda work around by having their armed forces be female. Plus not anywhere near the extent the Frateris Templarus were in size.

Beaviz81 wrote:Thinking on it. The AdMech could probably function better without the IOM.

If the AdMech would have its own resource income, yeah. But given that the Mechanicus territories are all just a bunch of isolated Forge Worlds, I assume they would break down quickly if regular shipments of food and raw materials would cease to arrive, not to mention the military protection of the much greater Imperial armed forces.

They could probably work around this with treaties, but then again I think that is pretty much what they already do - trading tech for resources, engaging in "barter" like all Imperial worlds. Their integration into the Imperium at least gives the Fabricator General a seat on the Council of High Lords, whilst in return they still retain much of their original independence.

The Imperium would always have the ability to simply cut off the Forge Worlds from trade and see them starve, but as mentioned above there would be delayed repercussions in the form of sabotage, reduced maintenance and the loss of Mechanicus-supplied technology.
In the end, both realms need each other, so I'd say it makes sense that they stick together, even with the existing tension.

Harriticus wrote:Naval power wasn't going to be very relevant in the Terran Crusade. Nobody was going to bombard the soil of Terra....

Which is kind of weird, isn't it? I can understand the Emperor shying away from it, but Horus?
I can only assume the Traitors were hoping for a quick victory, and unleashing the full power of the orbiting fleets would have interfered with the conflict on the ground...

Harriticus wrote:Vandire alienated the Departmento Munitorum and thus the IG/Navy through his craziness. His powerbase was the Ecclesiarchy, Officio Assassinorum, Astra Telepathica, Brides of the Emperor, and Frateris Templars.

Hmm, those were his means of enforcement, but his influence did stretch much further:

"The Reign of Blood affected the whole Imperium. Sycophantic Army and Navy officers were only too ready to execute Vandire's orders: virus ombing the hive world of Calana VII without reason, invading the farmlands of Boras Minor and enslaving every female child under twelve years of age, using the orbital batteries of Jhanna to melt the planet's ice caps and drowning nearly 4 billion people in the resultant floods. The list goes on and on, meticulously recorded by Vandire's scribes. Vandire would dictate long speeches bemoaning the wretched state of the Imperium, demanding justice against the cross section of humanity that was his current object of hate."
- 2E C:SoB

Grey Templar wrote:After Vandire, they were forbidden from maintaining Men under arms. Which they kinda work around by having their armed forces be female. Plus not anywhere near the extent the Frateris Templarus were in size.

*nods* Plus, the Ordo Hereticus gaining limited control over these forces as per the Convocation of Nephilim. It is said that Inquisitorial concerns were part of the reason as to why the Sisters assumed the double-role as Ecclesiarchal guardians as well as the part-time job of forming the Ordo Hereticus' Chamber Militant.

Vandire was a paranoid megalomaniac who didn't have the restraint, subtlety, ability to pretend not to be a paranoid megalomaniac, or limited power of your average megalomaniacal governor. This led to him stepping on entirely too many toes and the rest of the paranoid megalomaniacs teamed up to take him down.

The AdMech has the most advanced method of producing food Lynata, so they could many-double the production of food. Of course the reason for the AdMech to not break off it's ties with the IOM is that it simply ain't doable, but despite everything the AdMech with the IOM would work very fine, the IOM without the AdMech would be even more rapidly torn apart than if they lost the Imperial Guard,

You need resources to produce anything, and I'd wager that - just like with hive worlds - the vast majority of Forge Worlds have long since exhausted their own. Millennia of coexistence with the Imperium and a steady influx of raw materials have "jaded" the AdMech into gearing the entirety of their worlds for production and trade.

Personally, I would expect the average Forge World to be extremely well-defended. The Skitaari Tech-Guard would, or so I assume, have equipment far superior to their Munitorum counterparts, and I'd not be surprised if the planet would sport the most impressive guns and shields in all of the Imperium.

No, I'd say the AdMech would crumble from its inability to independently supply its massive workforce, power stations and factories much earlier than they'd even be threatened by alien invasion.

The Imperium is like a well-oiled slow but powerful machine. Take one of its cogs (hah, get it? cogs! ) out and everything will break down.

 Ratliker wrote:
Got curious reading about "Reign of Blood " of Goge Vandire.
He is accused of being paranoid megalomaniac, who engaged in power grabbing, mass executions and torturing people for fun.
But hey, all those things are routinely exhibited by respected imperial officials with enough power.
Megalomania and power grabbing seems to be a standard issue among 50% of Imperial governors, Navy admirals and Ecclesiarchy leaders;
Paranoia is actually praised (“suspicious mind is a healthy mind”);
Mass executions seem to be a daily occurrence on imperial worlds, performed alternately by Arbiters, Governmental forces and Inquisition;
Torturing is also seems to be routinely engaged everyone with power to do so, for a mix of information/punishment/LuLz in varying proportions.
So, was the main reason for Vandire’s villainous reputation (when compared to “respectable” people who engage in similar activities) is that he was deposed?
Like in real life, its always the loosing side that gets judged for War Crimes, irrespectively of who actually bombed more civilians and committed more atrocities?
And nation leaders being declared “murderous tyrants” if deposed but remain respectable “dear leaders” if manage to hold in power.
As old Russian saying goes “Rebellions never succeed, because if they do they are called revolutions”.

Just so... History is written by the winners. Goge Vandire lost. End of story.

Valete,

JohnS

The Mechanicum existed long before the Imperium so they could be independant. The point is they have a mutually beneficial relationship.

My 2 cents.

Vandire died because he grabbed too much power and ousted too many people for it. Not complaining though, the SoB would never have arisen if it wasn't for his madness. Nor would have 2/3's of the Inquisition. I find it interesting how every time there's a rebellion, the Union (er..) Imperium grows vastly in its bureaucracy... It's like an automatic happening.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
The Mechanicum existed long before the Imperium so they could be independant. The point is they have a mutually beneficial relationship.

They could survive, but not in their current form. They would basically have to take over resource gathering themselves.

The system would collapse. The survivors would have to rebuild from the ground up.

 Lynata wrote:

Harriticus wrote:Naval power wasn't going to be very relevant in the Terran Crusade. Nobody was going to bombard the soil of Terra....

Which is kind of weird, isn't it? I can understand the Emperor shying away from it, but Horus?
I can only assume the Traitors were hoping for a quick victory, and unleashing the full power of the orbiting fleets would have interfered with the conflict on the ground....

Well there was a very intense orbital bombardment of Terra by Horus' fleet according to the Collected Visions series. Apparently it was so intense that it made even veteran Space Marines shell-shocked.

That being said, as to why he simply didn't exterminatus the entire planet, Horus had a vision that he was always following throughout the Heresy. Part of that was preserving the Imperium but replacing the Emperor with himself. And there can be no Imperium without Terra.