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 Hulksmash wrote:
@red Corsair

Or, since he know what a Rail Gun looks like he could have assumed a TL-Railgun (which it was modelled as) for a FW unit. That would be reasonable right? Then it turns out it's plasma. The point is that if it had been modeled correctly he wouldn't have made the assumption he did. As it was it fired a weapon that the model in no way represented.

Agreed. I actually saw this player's (beautiful) display board prior to the event, but I was very confused by it since it seemed to have several units that were not legal options (Hammerhead with twin-linked railgun and three burst cannons) or weren't on his army list. I actually assumed he was playing in the Narrative event for this reason-- the twin-linked railgun turret seems to clearly violate the WYSIWYG rules from the 40k championship tournament packet: "If you are using converted or scratch built models with Forge World rules, this is acceptable so long as your model is as close to the represented model as possible in terms of equipment, size and shape. We will not be lenient with this." Further it could be construed as modeling for advantage too because the railguns are much longer than the plasma cannons.

I obviously don't think this player was trying to model for advantage but rather for things that looked cool, but I was very confused at a glance and think models like that shouldn't be used in tournament play. I also actually think having units on your display board that aren't in your army shouldn't be allowed either, but that's a different story and IMO a more ambiguous one.

Necrons and msu were definitely popular. I played blood angels and actually had a nice variety of armies to go against. Ork, daemon with csm, grey knights, elder, 3 marine players.

15 armies with Space Marines, none in the top 15. They ain't that bad right now IMO?

 Reecius wrote:

 Blood Lord Soldado wrote:

Now to not sound like I am pure brown nosing, the other thing I want to bring up, and I know it wasn't your fault was the food. Pizza is not that awesome 2 days in a row, and running out of drinks on Saturday was just bunk. I was sooo thirsty on Saturday night and I can't drink beer so I was basically boned for hydration. Again, they hotel will fix this, but this is the only thing that I found less than awesome. If you don't get the hotel for whatever reason, please let me know and I will come up and volunteer for the event and I will bring my taco stand. TACOS FOR THE TACO GOD!

That would be awesome! Providing food for the BAO has always been such a headache. On top of all the other responsibilities we have, ordering, picking up and selling the food is always such a PITA. We tried to get lunch trucks this year, but they all fell through. I seriously hate dealing with food and going to a hotel it will be such a relief to not deal with that crap again! if for whatever reason we do need help, I will be calling on the aid of the Taco Gods! haha

Reece,

I dont want to seem like I am telling you guys how to do this but at The Indy Open we used a private caterer the first year telling him he could charge cash and the price point should be from $5 to $8 per meal. It worked very well. This year we had the event in a hotel and it made the logistics so much easier. I gave the same deal to the hotel instead of us paying a certain amount per person and they agreed. They made money, it was something I didn't have to worry about, and the players loved the options. Just a thought.

Spaguatyrine

Spaguatyrine


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 hippesthippo wrote:
//begin rambling

I played Chaos/Necrons and, scared about FW skyfire/interceptor units, decided going into the event that I was going to have to take less flyers in order to survive. It was definitely the right call.

I had two games where I would have lost had I not traded in my 3rd flyer, a Night Scythe, for a Veiltek. A third game (one of my two losses) would've been a complete massacre, but instead came down to the wire. That Night Scythe would've gone POOF the second it came into play, and gone with it would be the mobile scoring units which were the main reason I was allying in Necrons in the first place.

I highly doubt I'm the only player that realized taking more than a couple flyers in a competitive FW-inclusive environment would be a bad idea. It's impossible for those armies to place in the top 10 if nobody is playing them.

Yes, there were a lot of Necron armies there. It should also be noted that 90% of them were piloted by less than stellar generals.

Did the inclusion of FW change the environment? Absolutely, it did.

Was that a bad thing? I'm not sure I'd say it was good or bad. Just different.

//end rambling

I am positive if FW wasn't allowed you would see more Necron flyers in the top tables! Guaranteed

I almost brought my wraithwing scythe-crons. I ended up bringing my bugs not because I was concerned about FW or anything (I wasn't), but because both the dakka readers and I wanted to see what my bugs could do in the tournament.

@Darth

Sorry for coming at you a bit harsh, it just felt like you were implying that we chose to make things unfun for people, which irked me.

@Hippest

I agree FW did change the meta, no doubt. That was one of the main points! As for better or worse, that is up to each individual to decide. I am putting out the poll today, and I will post results, so we will be able to see how most folks felt about it.

We aren't married to FW, I personally feel lit makes the game more fun, but we will see what the majority of people felt about it.

And you said it, the caliber of the player playing Crons, their luck, match-ups, etc. are more indicative of how they finished than the armies themselves.

@Blackmoor and Kingsley

I will talk to Israel about his Tau army, he comes into the shop most days. I can tell you for 100% certain he modeled his army to look cool as he is a painter first, player second. I will tell him people were confused by his army and I will bet money he not only feels bad about (as it was unintended) but also changes it.

@niviglobina

Vanilla marines right now are excellent, and I think those big numbers prove it. I think it just wasn't their day this event. Plus with all the dang Hell Turkies flying around, MEQs were having a rough day.

@Overwatch

Thanks for the offer! We actually tried to get a group of guys to bar-b-que, but they chose not to, also. We seriously could not catch a flipping break on the stupid food. I had 3 people working on getting food sorted out and everyone came up empty, it was so annoying.

@spaguatyrine

No worries man, I am very open to any advice. You run a good event too, and any experiences you have can only serve as good advice for us.

We tried the lunch trucks but they all fell through last minute. A private caterer is not a bad idea and we actually did not explore that option, which in retrospect we should have.

Thanks for the tip, I will hold on to that one for next year.

@Jy2

I share your attitude. FW doesn't scare me at all, but then, we use it all the time and I have played with it for years. So to me it just feels normal and not something to even make a fuss about. But that comes largely as a result of exposure to it.

@Defeatmyarmy

Glad you had a fun time, Dan!

 Nivoglibina wrote:
15 armies with Space Marines, none in the top 15. They ain't that bad right now IMO?

A lot of marine players are very skilled. I wasn't one of them lol. Daniel Katz I placed 132. Due to work I originally thought I would have to drop out. I literally made my list after being drunk after bowling 1 hour before the tournament. Reece and I discussed viable competitive lists using most marine models I already owned. I'll definitely be ready next year knowing the rules. It can literally take on almost any list after I told him what I wanted to deal with and it took him less than 30 minutes to figure out what I needed to add! Frontline gaming is a great source to submit army lists to, with 2+ top players in the country working there. Even though I lost 5 games it was a lot of fun.

I am not as anti-forge world as I use to be, but I am still not pro-forge world.

I would not mind some limits to FW, like limiting the books that you can use. Something like only being about to use the IA Apocalypse books.

Or you can do what a lot of tournaments in the UK are doing and limit it to one FW unit.

Well, that is some progress!

Like I said, I personally love using FW and really believe it makes for a more enjoyable game, but ultimately we do what our attendees want. If when we get feedback folks say they would prefer an event without FW, then so be it. At worst it was a great experiment, at best we open minds and go forward with more cool toys to use.

We included it this year as we had an overwhelmingly positive reaction to using it. Like 90% of the people we asked said go for it. We had a few, very vocal opponents though, which everyone saw. I will be very curious to see the reaction now after the fact.

My take on my time at the BAO this year http://www.3forint.com/2013/03/doks-bao.html

I liked the inclusion of the forgeworld as it gave me any shot against the ubiquitous helldrake. I would be interested to see the actual breakdown of people who used forgeworld and what they used though. It might give a clearer picture of what that meta looks like.

 Reecius wrote:
We included it this year as we had an overwhelmingly positive reaction to using it. Like 90% of the people we asked said go for it. We had a few, very vocal opponents though, which everyone saw. I will be very curious to see the reaction now after the fact.

I was a big opponent of FW prior to this event. Having played in it, my opinion changed-- most of the FW stuff doesn't concern me too much. I will however say that on tables with inferior terrain I would not be very happy with it. The great terrain you guys provided mitigated many of the potential issues.

Yeah, each table had an amount of terrain. Most of the ones I played on were consistent, having ruins in each corner, a few area terrain equally distributed, and LOS blocking terrain in the middle. The LOS blocking terrain was a bit annoying for my Broadsides, but I guess it's fair against pure gunline armies.

I didn't play against a single FW model. I did however hear complaint about one player bringing 3 Quad-Launchers (IA5). A single quad-launcher shoots 4 Strt5 AP5 blasts with barrage. Resolving multiple blasts with barrage is very time consuming. Non-FW is also capable of spamming multiple barrage. Biovores and IG Heavy Weapons squad w/ Mortars is a great example. I thought it was an unspoken rule or unsporting to field heavy amounts of multiple barrage shooting. I guess a lot of players don't realize that.

Reecius' chess clock idea in another thread would deter army builds that threatens time limit. However, it costs $20 - $22 per a clock. Times that by half the total of players and the cost is enormous. Perhaps those who find chess clocks appealing and provides fairness to turn-based table top games wouldn't mind donating money to fund chess clocks for the next BAO.

I would say that is a very wrong assumption.

Yeah, multiple barrage is a pain. But there is no unspoken rule that you don't bring tons of it.

And its no more unsporting than bringing 5 Tervigons and putting 15D6 gants on the board each turn.

The idea of chess clocks is interesting, I suppose, but try it out. I assure you, beyond a shadow of doubt, that it would not work. There are too many changes of possession, if you will, and it will a) slow things down even more with people messing around with it and b) be grossly inaccurate with people just not using it right (or at all).

 Kingsley wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
@red Corsair

Or, since he know what a Rail Gun looks like he could have assumed a TL-Railgun (which it was modelled as) for a FW unit. That would be reasonable right? Then it turns out it's plasma. The point is that if it had been modeled correctly he wouldn't have made the assumption he did. As it was it fired a weapon that the model in no way represented.

Agreed. I actually saw this player's (beautiful) display board prior to the event, but I was very confused by it since it seemed to have several units that were not legal options (Hammerhead with twin-linked railgun and three burst cannons) or weren't on his army list. I actually assumed he was playing in the Narrative event for this reason-- the twin-linked railgun turret seems to clearly violate the WYSIWYG rules from the 40k championship tournament packet: "If you are using converted or scratch built models with Forge World rules, this is acceptable so long as your model is as close to the represented model as possible in terms of equipment, size and shape. We will not be lenient with this." Further it could be construed as modeling for advantage too because the railguns are much longer than the plasma cannons.

I obviously don't think this player was trying to model for advantage but rather for things that looked cool, but I was very confused at a glance and think models like that shouldn't be used in tournament play. I also actually think having units on your display board that aren't in your army shouldn't be allowed either, but that's a different story and IMO a more ambiguous one.

Again my point is missed. He never even asked the player anything about the model that apparently was strange so how can he bitch when he finds out during his shooting phase? Certainly is isn't plasma on the model, but what if it shot 2-3 times with the rail gun? He still would have been screwed. Here's a perfect example for you, at the recent event that included FW that I attended I faced an Avenger Fighter from Aeronautica. The model has two las canon barrels and two auto canon barrels mounted on its wings similar to a dakka jet. I assumed it was twin linked weaponry YET I STILL ASKED.... Low and behold the G-damm thing had 2 auto canons 2 las canons and an avenger bolt canon... Oh wait and a heavy stubber out the rear! It pays to ask when someth9ing doesn't ;look right and I bet you Allen will not make the same mistake ever again. This also would have given him an opportunity at the event to voice his opposition to his none WYSYWIG model before it was a major issue in game.

Conclusion: Both players share blame here.


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 tomjoad wrote:
The idea of chess clocks is interesting, I suppose, but try it out. I assure you, beyond a shadow of doubt, that it would not work. There are too many changes of possession, if you will, and it will a) slow things down even more with people messing around with it and b) be grossly inaccurate with people just not using it right (or at all).

True, fortuned units for eldar get a reroll to saves. Tanking with a harley star requires lots of single rerolls on shadowfields to be done one at a time. Mind you this would drain the opponents clock as it was his turn.

 SabrX wrote:

Reecius' chess clock idea in another thread would deter army builds that threatens time limit. However, it costs $20 - $22 per a clock. Times that by half the total of players and the cost is enormous. Perhaps those who find chess clocks appealing and provides fairness to turn-based table top games wouldn't mind donating money to fund chess clocks for the next BAO.

You can also have players buy there own chess clocks if they want to use them.

As mentioned many times before, you have both players interacting at the same time that does not make chess clocks ideal.

 Reecius wrote:
@Darth

Well, thanks for the input. I think you are grossly overestimating the ability of the TO to control what is going on. We of course want people to have fun and it is regrettable when things go badly, but come on here, we aren't purposefully trying to make things bad which is the implication you were making. Your tone suggests we intentionally slighted Blackmoor which is asinine. For one, he is my friend personally, for two, what would that gain us?

We gain nothing by packing the event on purpose to the point we can't manage it, that only hurts us long term. This is our profession, this is how we pay the bills. We are in this for the long haul. We want people to walk away form our events stoked, not bummed out.

And yeah, I did know Alan said that FW would keep flyers away, hahaha, he is on Team Zero Comp, and crashed at my house while he was here! We talk often, he is a good friend of mine. He did predict that Forgeworld would dominate Flyers but he also doesn't play FW, he will tell you so himself. That was his guess. 2 of the top 4 armies had fliers though, so what should we infer from that?

Necrons were the 5th most represented army there, so they hardly got scared away. The fact that they didn't make the top 10% could be due to any number of reasons. Saying it was only FW is silly as most of the top armies (7 of them) had flyers, and only 1/3 of them (IRRC) used FW.

So there you go, more flyers than FW in the top 10%. Necrons would have fared no differently.

Reece my tone was somewhat playfull and not mean. What happened to Allan can happen to anybody, but is increased when you try and get to many people in a tourney. You advertised it as this big tourney. You boasted about the size. Or did I get that all wrong?

It is easier to manage less people. It is easier to control less people. It is easier to provide a better experince with less people. Try 64 instead of 144. Heck try two brackets of 48 for a total of 96 people. You;ll have more space, more control and more freedom. Quality over Quantity.

I've been having this debate with Adepticon on and off for years dating back to when I ran the Gladiator. It's just my pet peeve.

As for Alan, don't let him fool you. He might have hung out with you and stuff, but I play him every month here in Chicago for the last 3 years. He does indeed play FW and has tried to get it into our monthly event for a while. He loves the Ork Lifta Droppa and has used it for years. He wanted to bring bugs, but thought the Sabre Platforms would kill him. This was about a month ago.

No sense buttin' heads. You like your format and I like mine. Just agree to disagree.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Here's a perfect example for you, at the recent event that included FW that I attended I faced an Avenger Fighter from Aeronautica. The model has two las canon barrels and two auto canon barrels mounted on its wings similar to a dakka jet. I assumed it was twin linked weaponry YET I STILL ASKED.... Low and behold the G-damm thing had 2 auto canons 2 las canons and an avenger bolt canon... Oh wait and a heavy stubber out the rear! It pays to ask when someth9ing doesn't ;look right and I bet you Allen will not make the same mistake ever again. This also would have given him an opportunity at the event to voice his opposition to his none WYSYWIG model before it was a major issue in game.

Conclusion: Both players share blame here.
.

You mean your opponents model was WYSIWYG? It is a good thing you got to the bottom of that!

DarthDiggler wrote:
As for Alan, don't let him fool you. He might have hung out with you and stuff, but I play him every month here in Chicago for the last 3 years. He does indeed play FW and has tried to get it into our monthly event for a while. He loves the Ork Lifta Droppa and has used it for years. He wanted to bring bugs, but thought the Sabre Platforms would kill him. This was about a month ago.

Sabres did do unpleasant things to my bugs.

I havee to say, as my first GT i enjoyed it. You team made it easy enough to get in and play. There where some problems but they where minor.
You are definitly going to see me there again and at your store aswell.
You guys did a great job.

One interesting concept might be running a FW-legal event with a banned/restricted list. Not sure if people want to go that route, but it should stifle the issues with some FW units (Sabres, Sevrin Loth, all Heavy Artillery, perhaps the Hyperios Missile Battery) and provide an environment that's easier for people unfamiliar with FW to play in.

Reecius -- About the prizes, the confusion came from Frontline's sight where it list, "We're also working on a Super Secret Squirrel Prize..."

And the word "trophies" was used multiple times for the Best Of Armies.

No worries.

In a World of HellDrakes, Forgeworld is the list of my concern. Now with Spammable Flying Monstrous Creatures from Daemons, I reiterate the previous statement.

Most armies don't have access to enough anti flyer solutions and FW provides that need. Everytime I hear someone complain about lack of FW rules knowledge, I ask people to remember that the situation is the same when a new Codex comes out. This Fear of FW is based on an old environment and some stigma which are now finding their foundations eaten away.

I had a splendid time at BAO and will make the same monetary investment next year to return but this time I will be more in-line with some of the mentality of the players I have played over the weekend. I was taken aback over the weekend at the unwillingness of some players to even participate in playing certain rules properly but that is what happens when you drag so many new gaming regions into 1 event. Finally they are starting to communicate and perhaps slowly overtime rules understanding will be more homogeneous.

This BAO felt to me like a teenager moving out his college dorm to his first apartment in terms of logistic issues and space. I still think that Hammer and Anvil is the worse deployment ever written for large tournaments.

I was also taken aback at some of the amount of time people took during their turn when they were essentially playing static armies or just the inability to quick-roll but that is perhaps the crowd is not used to tournament play. I have timed some of my opponents and I was amazed we got to turn 5.

The Noise level was really high and was really hard to hear what my opponents were mumbling under their breath sometimes.

Now that I got done with that, let me talk about the highlights!!!

- Terrain was stellar!
- Once the scoring walk up was fixed, Round Turns around were super quick!
- Beer!
- Love the Missions Scenarios (Minus Hammer and Anvil).

Suggestion for next year, and I have already expressed those to Reece,

- Both Players need to turn in their scores, not 1.
- Sportsmanship needs to be turned in at the end of days not at end of rounds.


Looking forward to next year!

@the Lord Call

Ahhhhh, that is what you meant! Yeah, we were going to work on a prize like the Belt of Russ for Fantasy but we ran out of time. We were thinking another belt or a Sword with the winner's names on it, but the project got rolled over into next year. The Belt was expensive, cost us just shy of $400 to make.

@thread

Thanks for the ongoing constructive feedback, we really appreciate it.

 MikhailLenin wrote:
Most armies don't have access to enough anti flyer solutions and FW provides that need.

I hear that a lot, but if you think about it it really only helps out is IG who do not need any anti-flyer help. Maybe SM a little too.

Everyone else is SOL.

Only Tyranids are really lacking anti-flyer including FW. There are options for everyone else. Flyers are an excellent counter to flyers.

 Reecius wrote:
We seriously could not catch a flipping break on the stupid food. I had 3 people working on getting food sorted out and everyone came up empty, it was so annoying.

I honestly don't see the problem. Barley pop packs like 140 calories per, so you know, after 5 or 6, you've got your FDA recommended caloric intake for lunch. I got my fill.



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 MikhailLenin wrote:

Now that I got done with that, let me talk about the highlights!!!

- Terrain was stellar!
- Once the scoring walk up was fixed, Round Turns around were super quick!
- Beer!
- Love the Missions Scenarios (Minus Hammer and Anvil).

The event is large enough a food truck can probably be talked into giving it a try.

HOWL Reece! Great Job! Wolfbrothers loved it all and want more!

 schadenfreude wrote:
The event is large enough a food truck can probably be talked into giving it a try.

You'd think so, wouldn't you! hahaha, we couldn't get one out there!

We got cancelled on by like, 4 companies. We should have gone to a caterer. That was a good idea that we didn't think of.

@Yenhoi

Thanks!

@Thread

The poll is out and the results so far are really interesting! I won't say anything as I don't want to skew the results, but check your email if you went to the BAO, you should have a feedback questionnaire. The data helps us out a LOT, so please take the quick second it takes to fill it out (multiple choice, super fast).

Some of the results are not what I expected.