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 grendel083 wrote:

Sometimes you may have to modify the number rolled on the dice ( or 'the roll').

It's right there. The roll is modified. Not the result.
So D6+1 is a roll. It's a modified roll certainly, but still the roll.

No its the exact opposite.

"Sometimes you may have to modify the number rolled...." Number.
You modify the number rolled, not the roll.


So you roll a one and get number one. Then you modify the number one to number two, but the roll is still one.

Indeed.

Sometimes you may have to modify the number rolled on the dice ( or 'the roll'). This is noted as d6 plus or minus a number, such as D6+1. Roll the dice and add or subtract the number given to or from the roll (as appropriate) to get the final result.

The number rolled on the dice is the roll. We are told in the third sentence that the number rolled on the dice is still considered the roll. When it is adjusted by the modifier it is the final result.

Sadly I'm at work now, so have no rulebook here, but the part about re-rolling dice (the next paragraph on p5 for those who can give us the exact quote) tells us that whatever modifiers apply to the original dice roll apply to the reroll.

 DeathReaper wrote:
We are not told any unmodified rolls of a 1 are re-rolled, so you must add in the modifier to comply with the rules.

Permissive ruleset wins here.

And the book says to reroll a dice roll of a 1. So, you'll have to show me where it says you can't or your house ruling it.

Thanks guys for the feedback. So the answer to the original question is "no, I can not use the wolf standard to modify my charge distance if I roll a 1 on the dice because ALL 2D6 rolls are thrown together and the result can never be a 1.

A new question has emerged regarding the wolf standard and mark of the wolfen that someone else brought up. After reading the rules in the codex, FAQ, and MRB, I will be rerolling ANY dice roll of a one when I roll for my attacks for mark of the wolfen (I have rolled ones before) if I used my banner. The reason is because there is a distinct difference between the roll and final result when adding modifiers per raw.

Thank you again for the feedback.

Polecat wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

Sometimes you may have to modify the number rolled on the dice ( or 'the roll').

It's right there. The roll is modified. Not the result.
So D6+1 is a roll. It's a modified roll certainly, but still the roll.

No its the exact opposite.

"Sometimes you may have to modify the number rolled...." Number.
You modify the number rolled, not the roll.

So you roll a one and get number one. Then you modify the number one to number two, but the roll is still one.

The number rolled IS the roll, says right there in the bracketed part of the rule.
The modifier is applied to the roll itself. You roll a one, its modified to two. You now have a roll of two. NOT a result of two, but a roll of two.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
The roll of a die would not add in a modifier. The result is modified, not the roll.
The rules say make a roll then add the modifiers to get a total not a roll.

The result is NOT what is modified, the roll is. It's right there in the quoted rule "modify the number rolled" (aka "the role"). Result isn't mentioned. Not once.

 grendel083 wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
The roll of a die would not add in a modifier. The result is modified, not the roll.
The rules say make a roll then add the modifiers to get a total not a roll.

The result is NOT what is modified, the roll is. It's right there in the quoted rule "modify the number rolled" (aka "the role"). Result isn't mentioned. Not once.

Oh good than. Than when I roll a 1 to wound it's not really a 1 so it will wound.

Roll to wound D6+Str

Kal-El wrote:
Thanks guys for the feedback. So the answer to the original question is "no, I can not use the wolf standard to modify my charge distance if I roll a 1 on the dice because ALL 2D6 rolls are thrown together and the result can never be a 1.

A new question has emerged regarding the wolf standard and mark of the wolfen that someone else brought up. After reading the rules in the codex, FAQ, and MRB, I will be rerolling ANY dice roll of a one when I roll for my attacks for mark of the wolfen (I have rolled ones before) if I used my banner. The reason is because there is a distinct difference between the roll and final result when adding modifiers per raw.

Thank you again for the feedback.

Yes, I believe you're correct on both points - and apologies for the explosion of posts in the thread.

 grendel083 wrote:

Polecat wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

Sometimes you may have to modify the number rolled on the dice ( or 'the roll').

It's right there. The roll is modified. Not the result.
So D6+1 is a roll. It's a modified roll certainly, but still the roll.

No its the exact opposite.

"Sometimes you may have to modify the number rolled...." Number.
You modify the number rolled, not the roll.

So you roll a one and get number one. Then you modify the number one to number two, but the roll is still one.

The number rolled IS the roll, says right there in the bracketed part of the rule.
The modifier is applied to the roll itself. You roll a one, its modified to two. You now have a roll of two. NOT a result of two, but a roll of two.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
The roll of a die would not add in a modifier. The result is modified, not the roll.
The rules say make a roll then add the modifiers to get a total not a roll.

The result is NOT what is modified, the roll is. It's right there in the quoted rule "modify the number rolled" (aka "the role"). Result isn't mentioned. Not once.

The roll is modified but the result is 2, not the roll. Look at the words the brb uses carefully. Look at the whole of the paragraph, you and DR seem to think that the only line that matters in a paragraph is the first one. The number rolled is the roll, that is then modified to give a result.
The roll or making a roll is the physical action you take. The rules differentiate between that and the result of a modified roll.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
The roll is modified but the result is 2, not the roll. Look at the words the brb uses carefully. Look at the whole of the paragraph, you and DR seem to think that the only line that matters in a paragraph is the first one. The number rolled is the roll, that is then modified to give a result.
The roll or making a roll is the physical action you take. The rules differentiate between that and the result of a modified roll.

Totally wrong, I'm sorry but it's right there in black and white.
You even say it right there, the roll is modified.
You now have a modified roll.
The result doesn't come into it, the whole idea that there must be a "result" (something that is NOT in the rule) is the problem many people are clearly having. Talking about a need for a result, is the part being made up, and is not in the rule at all.
There is no result.
There is a roll.
This is then modified.
The number of attacks is your modified roll, and you move on to rolling to hit.
The number of attacks is never the RESULT of a modified roll, that is a made up concept.

 grendel083 wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
The roll is modified but the result is 2, not the roll. Look at the words the brb uses carefully. Look at the whole of the paragraph, you and DR seem to think that the only line that matters in a paragraph is the first one. The number rolled is the roll, that is then modified to give a result.
The roll or making a roll is the physical action you take. The rules differentiate between that and the result of a modified roll.

Totally wrong, I'm sorry but it's right there in black and white.
You even say it right there, the roll is modified.
You now have a modified roll.
The result doesn't come into it, the whole idea that there must be a "result" (something that is NOT in the rule) is the problem many people are clearly having. Talking about a need for a result, is the part being made up, and is not in the rule at all.
There is no result.
There is a roll.
This is then modified.
The number of attacks is your modified roll, and you move on to rolling to hit.
The number of attacks is never the RESULT of a modified roll, that is a made up concept.

Sometimes you may have to modify the number rolled on the dice ( or 'the roll'). This is noted as d6 plus or minus a number, such as D6+1. Roll the dice and add or subtract the number given to or from the roll (as appropriate) to get the final result.

That's the exact wording of the rule in question. Note the existence of the final three words "the final result". The final result exists in the rule. Please clarify how the "result" is not in the rule when it's there in black and white.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also note that it states "to get the final result" not "to get the modified roll"

Fair enough, I stand corrected. I do apologise.
In any event, whether the modified roll or the result of a modified roll is used, makes not difference.
The Wolf Standard does not call for Unmodified Rolls (as things like Characteristic Test do).

I'm sorry if my post came across a tad agressive :|

I'm at work so can't look the wording of the characteristic tests up. Could you post it so I can see what you're saying is the difference between it and the Wolf Standard one?

 grendel083 wrote:
Fair enough, I stand corrected. I do apologise.
In any event, whether the modified roll or the result of a modified roll is used, makes not difference.
The Wolf Standard does not call for Unmodified Rolls (as things like Characteristic Test do).

No worries, I'm not touchy about these things.
Since the result and the roll are seen to be different in the rulebook do you at least see where we are coming from?

 liturgies of blood wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
Fair enough, I stand corrected. I do apologise.
In any event, whether the modified roll or the result of a modified roll is used, makes not difference.
The Wolf Standard does not call for Unmodified Rolls (as things like Characteristic Test do).

No worries, I'm not touchy about these things.
Since the result and the roll are seen to be different in the rulebook do you at least see where we are coming from?

Yes, totally see where you're coming from.
But the way I'm seeing it, is the rule says the roll itself is modified, and the Wolf Standard asks for neither an unmodified roll, nor the result of a roll. I can see no reason why a modifier shouldn't be applied, and there are examples of rules what actuall call for unmodified rolls.

 grendel083 wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
Fair enough, I stand corrected. I do apologise.
In any event, whether the modified roll or the result of a modified roll is used, makes not difference.
The Wolf Standard does not call for Unmodified Rolls (as things like Characteristic Test do).

No worries, I'm not touchy about these things.
Since the result and the roll are seen to be different in the rulebook do you at least see where we are coming from?

Yes, totally see where you're coming from.
But the way I'm seeing it, is the rule says the roll itself is modified, and the Wolf Standard asks for neither an unmodified roll, nor the result of a roll. I can see no reason why a modifier shouldn't be applied, and there are examples of rules what actuall call for unmodified rolls.

I'm not trying to be awkward, just have no means to get to a rulebook atm, could you post an example of one of those rules so I can see how it differs from the wolf standard one?

"...a dice roll of 6 is always a failure, and a dice roll of 1 is always a success, regardless of any other modifiers..."
From Characteristic Tests.

 grendel083 wrote:
"...a dice roll of 6 is always a failure, and a dice roll of 1 is always a success, regardless of any other modifiers..."
From Characteristic Tests.

Thank you, but doesn't that support the idea that the roll and the result are two different things?

I'm not quite seeing your logic here, apologies if I'm being slow?

It's asking for a roll that hasn't been modified, ie an unmodified roll.
The Wolf Standard doesn't ask for this.

 grendel083 wrote:
It's asking for a roll that hasn't been modified, ie an unmodified roll.
The Wolf Standard doesn't ask for this.

I can sort of see where you're coming from, but I still don't believe that a dice roll of 1 means anything other than a dice that displays one when rolled... Even by that rule.

I see it as providing an extra restriction in these cases - no matter what the result of modifying the dice roll is (if there are modifiers) then a dice roll of a 1 is an auto pass and a dice roll of a 6 is an auto fail.

I see it as providing more clarity that the result and the roll are two different things when a modifier is involved.

I think that quote of yours grendel is introducing "natural" rolls into the characteristic rolls to ensure that there is always an option of failure. Otherwise there would be tests that could not be failed, similar to armour saves that cannot be failed break the game.

From the RE-ROLL Paragraph on p5. Note that any modifiers that applied to the first dice roll are also applied to the re-roll

I think that's quite clear. Modifiers are applied to a dice roll. Hence the dice that is an input to the equation of dice roll +/- modfier is a dice roll.

chezzie wrote:

From the RE-ROLL Paragraph on p5. Note that any modifiers that applied to the first dice roll are also applied to the re-roll

I think that's quite clear. Modifiers are applied to a dice roll. Hence the dice that is an input to the equation of dice roll +/- modfier is a dice roll.

Die Roll + Modifier ='s Result Is there anything I'm missing?

 grendel083 wrote:
It's asking for a roll that hasn't been modified, ie an unmodified roll.
The Wolf Standard doesn't ask for this.

Characteristic Tests actually are a third thing. They're not an unmodified test; they just have special exceptions for natural rolls of 1 or 6.

You can't use the wolf banner cause the dice rolled for charge are done in the charge sub phase not the fight sub phase.

 cgage00 wrote:
You can't use the wolf banner cause the dice rolled for charge are done in the charge sub phase not the fight sub phase.

Both of those are in the assault phase, which is what the wolf banner refers to (reroll all rolls of 1 during the ensuing assault phase)

Are people seriously trying to argue that 1D6 can offer results of 2-7? YMDC's mental gymnastics team is really going for the gold on this one.

Wolf Standard says to re-roll all 1s.

Mark of the Wulfen gives D6 + 1 attacks.

The dice roll is 1-6

Mark of the Wulfen is 2-7

The Wolf Standard doesn't care about the circumstance beyond its listed restrictions: D6 rolls in assault phase, no leadership tests. Nothing else matters. The D6 values are 1-6; it is only the Mark of the Wulfen values that are 2-7. Therefore, the Wolf Standard's effect kicks in before the Mark of the Wulfens' effect does; meaning you re-roll the 1 before you add Mark of the Wulfen's +1 attack.

 azazel the cat wrote:
Are people seriously trying to argue that 1D6 can offer results of 2-7?

No, but a D6+1 does.

 azazel the cat wrote:

YMDC's mental gymnastics team is really going for the gold on this one.

Wolf Standard says to re-roll all 1s.

Mark of the Wulfen gives D6 + 1 attacks.

The dice roll is 1-6

Mark of the Wulfen is 2-7

The Wolf Standard doesn't care about the circumstance beyond its listed restrictions: D6 rolls in assault phase, no leadership tests. Nothing else matters. The D6 values are 1-6; it is only the Mark of the Wulfen values that are 2-7. Therefore, the Wolf Standard's effect kicks in before the Mark of the Wulfens' effect does; meaning you re-roll the 1 before you add Mark of the Wulfen's +1 attack.

Citation needed for the underlined, as I can not find where it says that.


The dice roll is not a 1-6 as you have to add a +1 modifier to it. (It meaning the roll).

So the roll is a 2-7, and is never a 1 because of the modifier. Modifiers are applied to a dice roll. The equation of dice roll +/- modfier is a dice roll.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 azazel the cat wrote:
Are people seriously trying to argue that 1D6 can offer results of 2-7?

No, but a D6+1 does.

 azazel the cat wrote:

YMDC's mental gymnastics team is really going for the gold on this one.

Wolf Standard says to re-roll all 1s.

Mark of the Wulfen gives D6 + 1 attacks.

The dice roll is 1-6

Mark of the Wulfen is 2-7

The Wolf Standard doesn't care about the circumstance beyond its listed restrictions: D6 rolls in assault phase, no leadership tests. Nothing else matters. The D6 values are 1-6; it is only the Mark of the Wulfen values that are 2-7. Therefore, the Wolf Standard's effect kicks in before the Mark of the Wulfens' effect does; meaning you re-roll the 1 before you add Mark of the Wulfen's +1 attack.

Citation needed for the underlined, as I can not find where it says that.


The dice roll is not a 1-6 as you have to add a +1 modifier to it. (It meaning the roll).

So the roll is a 2-7, and is never a 1 because of the modifier. Modifiers are applied to a dice roll. The equation of dice roll +/- modfier is a dice roll.

Actually a D6 can only roll a 1-6. Adding in a modifier would be the result of the Modifier + Die roll.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 azazel the cat wrote:
Are people seriously trying to argue that 1D6 can offer results of 2-7?

No, but a D6+1 does.

 azazel the cat wrote:

YMDC's mental gymnastics team is really going for the gold on this one.

Wolf Standard says to re-roll all 1s.

Mark of the Wulfen gives D6 + 1 attacks.

The dice roll is 1-6

Mark of the Wulfen is 2-7

The Wolf Standard doesn't care about the circumstance beyond its listed restrictions: D6 rolls in assault phase, no leadership tests. Nothing else matters. The D6 values are 1-6; it is only the Mark of the Wulfen values that are 2-7. Therefore, the Wolf Standard's effect kicks in before the Mark of the Wulfens' effect does; meaning you re-roll the 1 before you add Mark of the Wulfen's +1 attack.

Citation needed for the underlined, as I can not find where it says that.


The dice roll is not a 1-6 as you have to add a +1 modifier to it. (It meaning the roll).

So the roll is a 2-7, and is never a 1 because of the modifier. Modifiers are applied to a dice roll. The equation of dice roll +/- modfier is a dice roll.

Actually a D6 can only roll a 1-6. Adding in a modifier would be the result of the Modifier + Die roll.

Also known as a modified D6 roll; which is different than a D6 roll, which is what the Wolf Standard applies to.

After all, if they're not two separate things, then it is impossible to ever auto-fail a WS test, as a D6 roll of 1 + WS will always be greater than 1. Yet the provision that 1 is an auto-fail exists, implying that a D6 roll of 1 is separate from the WS modifier (the base stat) that is added to the D6 roll.

A 2d6 roll is not a 1d6 roll. Anything allowing reroll of a d6 roll does not apply to a 2d6 roll.

Modifying the roll is basically irrelevant.