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Reading the whole thread really fills you with a sense of how slow the bureaucracy on terra might be. I can see both sides of the argument and it is a slippery slope throughout. I personally side with the concept of D6 + 1 means roll the dice then add the modifier unless any rules specify a re roll as adding the modifier would be after the roll/re roll "phase" for lack of a better term. I honestly felt like something in the warp smiled after reading the constant back and forth and couldn't help but picture a multi colored bird stating "just as planned".

 azazel the cat wrote:
After all, if they're not two separate things, then it is impossible to ever auto-fail a WS test, as a D6 roll of 1 + WS will always be greater than 1. Yet the provision that 1 is an auto-fail exists, implying that a D6 roll of 1 is separate from the WS modifier (the base stat) that is added to the D6 roll.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
Oh good than. Than when I roll a 1 to wound it's not really a 1 so it will wound.

Roll to wound D6+Str

OK, I'm curious as to where you get add Str to D6 to Wound, and add the Characteristic to the D6 for Characteristic tests comes from.

Now as to why I believe you can re-roll a modified dice roll:
First: Page 5 of the BRB refers to as the number rolled on the dice as "the roll" and then the modified number as the final result.
Second: Page 7 of the BRB says that a dice roll of X is always a failure, and a dice roll of Y is always a success, regardless of other modifiers. Again this implies at least that the result and the roll are separate.
Third: Page 29 of the Eldar Codex also states that if you roll "Y" that it counts as a failure (with no mention of modifiers). Again this implies that they consider the roll and the final result to be two separate things. Otherwise, with two Autarchs, you could have your entire army successfully come in from reserve on Turn 2 no matter what you rolled as the final result (if you choose to add 1 for each Autarch, and yes per the FAQ they stack), will be a minimum of 3.

I'm sure there are other examples, but I'm too lazy to find them (just got out of work and have to be back in 6 hours).

 azazel the cat wrote:

After all, if they're not two separate things, then it is impossible to ever auto-fail a WS test, as a D6 roll of 1 + WS will always be greater than 1.
Yet the provision that 1 is an auto-fail exists, implying that a D6 roll of 1 is separate from the WS modifier (the base stat) that is added to the D6 roll.

Yet no such provision exists in the Mark of the Wulven rule.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 azazel the cat wrote:

After all, if they're not two separate things, then it is impossible to ever auto-fail a WS test, as a D6 roll of 1 + WS will always be greater than 1.
Yet the provision that 1 is an auto-fail exists, implying that a D6 roll of 1 is separate from the WS modifier (the base stat) that is added to the D6 roll.

Yet no such provision exists in the Mark of the Wulven rule.

So if a to wound roll of 1 auto fails, I never fail because it's 1+Str right?

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 azazel the cat wrote:

After all, if they're not two separate things, then it is impossible to ever auto-fail a WS test, as a D6 roll of 1 + WS will always be greater than 1.
Yet the provision that 1 is an auto-fail exists, implying that a D6 roll of 1 is separate from the WS modifier (the base stat) that is added to the D6 roll.

Yet no such provision exists in the Mark of the Wulven rule.

So if a to wound roll of 1 auto fails, I never fail because it's 1+Str right?

Mark of the Wulven has nothing to do with Str.

 DeathReaper wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 azazel the cat wrote:

After all, if they're not two separate things, then it is impossible to ever auto-fail a WS test, as a D6 roll of 1 + WS will always be greater than 1.
Yet the provision that 1 is an auto-fail exists, implying that a D6 roll of 1 is separate from the WS modifier (the base stat) that is added to the D6 roll.

Yet no such provision exists in the Mark of the Wulven rule.

So if a to wound roll of 1 auto fails, I never fail because it's 1+Str right?

Mark of the Wulven has nothing to do with Str.

However you're saying the Roll for MoTW of a 1 would actually be 2.

So by that logic a roll to wound would be a minimum of 2, hence never auto failing on a 1.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
However you're saying the Roll for MoTW of a 1 would actually be 2.

So by that logic a roll to wound would be a minimum of 2, hence never auto failing on a 1.

What roll to wound?

 DeathReaper wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
However you're saying the Roll for MoTW of a 1 would actually be 2.

So by that logic a roll to wound would be a minimum of 2, hence never auto failing on a 1.

What roll to wound?

Sorry, apparently lost my everloving mind.

Again DR you have chosen not to read the rules on modified dice rolls. It is clear, (a) roll a dice (b) apply modifier to that roll (c) find the final result. Nowhere in that is the final result called a dice roll, the roll is the action and result of the action before applying modifiers.

The final result is the roll. Do not ignore the context.

And as I pointed out, although GW may not outright say it (I think they do, but enough are arguing against it), they definitely imply that roll != final result (see Characteristic tests, and Master Strategist in C:Eldar).

Implication is all well and good but RAW is king and what does RAW say?

Context talks about modifying a roll, applying a modifier to a roll. It doesn't equate a roll with a modified roll. The context shows a clear distinction.

The final result is the roll, as per the section cited.

Pg 5 BRB section re-rolls, last sentence: "note that any modifiers that applied to the first dice roll are also applied to the re-roll."
This for me makes it clear that modifiers are applied after you re-roll. Although this sentence is in context of 2d6 etc, it is clearly a precedent where a modifier is separate to the roll of the dice and subsequent re-rolls

Actually, that wording would mean that the modifier had already applied before the re-roll.
So if you are re-rolling, then you've rolled... and if re-rolling includes modifiers...

 Digriz wrote:
Pg 5 BRB section re-rolls, last sentence: "note that any modifiers that applied to the first dice roll are also applied to the re-roll."
This for me makes it clear that modifiers are applied after you re-roll. Although this sentence is in context of 2d6 etc, it is clearly a precedent where a modifier is separate to the roll of the dice and subsequent re-rolls

So it's saying modifiers are applied to the first roll before re-rolls, as well as the second?
Then you definitely can't roll a 1.

Before I get shouted at for being unable to read previous post which I could not find, the book does cover the subject of rolling double 1's and double 6's in the case of Psyker mishap,
which would at least in this situation give precedence to re-rolling the dice for the Psyhic test, and if this gives precedence to other things well someone else figure that out.


And curse my spelling/grammar. (edit)

You're intentionally trying to obfuscate the meaning here. Please stop trying to play Who's On First.


The point is that it is a floating modifier. As in, the +1 hangs around, to apply to whatever dice roll is final. The dice roll can be re-rolled, but whatever the outcome, the +1 modifier will always be there. However, Mark of the Wulfen does not care about that modifier, it is only concerned with the dice roll, which is a value of between 1 and 6. This point I will not argue. I think a base tenet of EVERYTHING is the acceptance that a D6 roll can offer results ranging from 1 to 6. If this is something that cannot be understood.... then games that involve D6s are not for you.

A D6 roll can offer results ranging from 1 to 6. But we are told the to roll a D6+1, which yields 2-7.

That +1 doesn't come from the D6.

Case closed.

 azazel the cat wrote:
That +1 doesn't come from the D6.

Case closed.

This is true. It did ask for a Die roll. A D6 can only roll a 1-6.

And according to P.5 modifiers are applied to the dice roll, so a D6+1 can never be a 1, as you have a range of 2-7


Pg 5 BRB section re-rolls, last sentence: "note that any modifiers that applied to the first dice roll are also applied to the re-roll."

 DeathReaper wrote:
And according to P.5 modifiers are applied to the dice roll, so a D6+1 can never be a 1, as you have a range of 2-7


Pg 5 BRB section re-rolls, last sentence: "note that any modifiers that applied to the first dice roll are also applied to the re-roll."

Ok applied o the dice roll, and the dice roll are two seperate things.
The Dice roll will always be a 1-6 on a D6.

Pg 5 tells us that if the dice roll was D6+1 that the second reroll will still get the +1.

P.5 tells us that modifiers are applied to the dice roll. So you apply the modifier and the dice roll of D6+1 is never a 1 because you have to apply the modifier.

Basically the modifier modifies the 1 and makes it a 2, so it can never be a 1.

 DeathReaper wrote:

chezzie wrote:


Assuming those quotes were meant to be the other way around:

The rule says any dice rolls of a 1. For the mark of the wulfen I roll one die, and I get a 1. Is that or is that not a dice roll of a 1?

Edit for stupid wierd quoting

No it would not, as the Dice roll is a 2 in that case (D6 +1)

You have to add the +1 to get the result of the die roll, as you have not rolled a 1, you have rolled a 2.

It is the same with LD tests, you cant ever roll a 1, even if both dice come up ones, the lowest you can get is a two on two D6, just like the lowest you can get on the mark of the wulfen roll is a 2

The die roll would be a 1, the result would be a 2.

It's not the same as a Leadership test.
2D6 vs 1D6

With leadership you can have a pair of 1s which is 2 and that's the dice roll.

However with the MoTW it's a 1 that's the roll


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:
P.5 tells us that modifiers are applied to the dice roll. So you apply the modifier and the dice roll of D6+1 is never a 1 because you have to apply the modifier.

Basically the modifier modifies the 1 and makes it a 2, so it can never be a 1.

My dice must be lying than I always get a 1 for those ...

Modifying dice rolls defines a 2d6 roll as a modified dice roll.
If you agree that you cannot roll an individual d6 out of a 2d6 roll, then you also agree that modifiers are applied before evaluating if you're able to roll or not.

rigeld2 wrote:
Modifying dice rolls defines a 2d6 roll as a modified dice roll.
If you agree that you cannot roll an individual d6 out of a 2d6 roll, then you also agree that modifiers are applied before evaluating if you're able to roll or not.

Guess I don't agree than

I'm going back to work, play with you kiddos later.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Modifying dice rolls defines a 2d6 roll as a modified dice roll.
If you agree that you cannot roll an individual d6 out of a 2d6 roll, then you also agree that modifiers are applied before evaluating if you're able to roll or not.

Guess I don't agree than

I'm going back to work, play with you kiddos later.

So you are allowed to re-roll 1d6 out of the 2d6 roll?

The rules disagree with you.

 DeathReaper wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Modifying dice rolls defines a 2d6 roll as a modified dice roll.
If you agree that you cannot roll an individual d6 out of a 2d6 roll, then you also agree that modifiers are applied before evaluating if you're able to roll or not.

Guess I don't agree than

I'm going back to work, play with you kiddos later.

So you are allowed to re-roll 1d6 out of the 2d6 roll?

The rules disagree with you.

There is a difference between a re-roll of 2d6 and re-rolling a dice out of the 2d6. The rules even say this.. There is a specific restriction on re-rolls of 2d6, 3d6 etc that you must re-roll all of the dice unless otherwise stated.

That is why I said rules disagree with him.