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Made in us
Lesser Daemon of Chaos




Olympia, WA

 Seaward wrote:
 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

I wouldn't recommend guns at all for home defence, and that not because I work for the UN or anything like that but other posters have pointed out that a shotgun going off in a confined space is likely to mess up your eardrums and leave you dazed. Show of hands: how many people think leaping out the dark with a knife would probably be more effeective i.e less to think about, instinct, fear, not used to violent situations etc etc

Too look somebody square in the eye and pull the trigger...well...it's not for everybody.

I'm curious how many of said posters have actually had to fire a shotgun or a pistol in confined spaces without earpro before.

I have. It's loud. Tweety Bird doesn't appear and start circling around your head. You can still function.


I have done it at an indoor range on accident, it wasnt pleasent, but I wasnt dazed to the point I lost function, I was still able to curse and reach up to put my ear plug back in. If its dark and you shoot inside then you can experience a short blindness from the muzzle flash but it seems people think that the concussion of a shotgun will give you shell shock if fired indoors. With this logic shooting a shotgun at an indoor range would be a painful experience for all involved and no one would do it.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Leerstetten, Germany

If it is slightly disorienting from your end of the gun, at least the bad guy will feel the same disorientation (if you missed).
   
Made in us
Infiltrating Hawwa'





Through the looking glass

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Show of hands: how many people think leaping out the dark with a knife would probably be more effeective i.e less to think about, instinct, fear, not used to violent situations etc etc

Too look somebody square in the eye and pull the trigger...well...it's not for everybody.


Not sure if serious. I'd much rather have a boomstick than a knife in a home invasion situation. People manage to cut themselves with a knife just bumbling around a kitchen. I'm pretty sure bumbling around in the darkness would be worse.

Besides, I'm pretty sure it takes a lot less to shoot someone than carve them up. I'd also wager it takes less to shoot someone than beat them up. Why do you think kids these days resort to guns instead of just knocking each others lights out?
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Leerstetten, Germany

All this silly knife talk.

At least get a sword like a real man.
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 d-usa wrote:
All this silly knife talk.

At least get a sword like a real man.

Hey... I have my Katana on my Fireplace mantle!

Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: Show of hands: how many people think leaping out the dark with a knife would probably be more effeective i.e less to think about, instinct, fear, not used to violent situations etc etc.

It's among the most foolish things ITT, twice.

Too look somebody square in the eye and pull the trigger...well...it's not for everybody.

And well it should not be, and if that's your argument viciously inserting a blade through skin and bone from inches away seems somehow more likely?

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:Instead of buying a gun for home defence, wouldn't it be better for people to lobby their politicians to tackle the socio-economic problems that result in house-breaking, or is that just wishful thinking?

Crime is at an all time low and it's still not uncommon. If there was an easy solution to poverty don't you think someone would have found it by now?
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

 whembly wrote:
 d-usa wrote:
All this silly knife talk.

At least get a sword like a real man.

Hey... I have my Katana on my Fireplace mantle!


I have a warhammer, machete, and gladius all within a couple seconds access.

If someone ever breaks in, I'm going to come out swinging screaming "THIS IS SPARTA!!!"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 d-usa wrote:
If it is slightly disorienting from your end of the gun, at least the bad guy will feel the same disorientation (if you missed).


I imagine he'll be disorientated if you hit him too.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/07 18:33:43


Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






You are all wierdo's.
I do want a full set of gothic armor at some point, for display. But a German styled mounted warhammer and a full metal mace for display/fething around with/ post apocalyptic beat stick.

 Avatar 720 wrote:
You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.

Come check out my Blood Angels,Crimson Fists, and coming soon Eldar
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/391013.page
I have conceded that the Eldar page I started in P&M is their legitimate home. Free Candy! Updated 10/19.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/391553.page
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
 
   
Made in ca
Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord





d-usa wrote:All this silly knife talk.

At least get a sword like a real man.

Not a good idea in confined spaces like hallways.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






http://m.click2houston.com/news/Man-pulls-gun-on-rowdy-line-cutting-shopper/-/16714936/17527734/-/1460fta/-/index.html
Some Fething people

 Avatar 720 wrote:
You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.

Come check out my Blood Angels,Crimson Fists, and coming soon Eldar
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/391013.page
I have conceded that the Eldar page I started in P&M is their legitimate home. Free Candy! Updated 10/19.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/391553.page
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
 
   
Made in us
Infiltrating Hawwa'





Through the looking glass

I'm surrounded by weak men of the tender lands. A true man defends his home with an Axe.

Axe+lighter flamer thrower is acceptable too. Has axe in the name. Still counts.

“Sometimes I can hear my bones straining under the weight of all the lives I'm not living.”

― Jonathan Safran Foer 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






 Necroshea wrote:
I'm surrounded by weak men of the tender lands. A true man defends his home with an Axe.

Axe+lighter flamer thrower is acceptable too. Has axe in the name. Still counts.

Do you cast Brambles first or are you solely a missile spell-caster?

 Avatar 720 wrote:
You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.

Come check out my Blood Angels,Crimson Fists, and coming soon Eldar
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/391013.page
I have conceded that the Eldar page I started in P&M is their legitimate home. Free Candy! Updated 10/19.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/391553.page
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
 
   
Made in us
Hallowed Canoness





The Void

 Seaward wrote:
 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

I wouldn't recommend guns at all for home defence, and that not because I work for the UN or anything like that but other posters have pointed out that a shotgun going off in a confined space is likely to mess up your eardrums and leave you dazed. Show of hands: how many people think leaping out the dark with a knife would probably be more effeective i.e less to think about, instinct, fear, not used to violent situations etc etc

Too look somebody square in the eye and pull the trigger...well...it's not for everybody.

I'm curious how many of said posters have actually had to fire a shotgun or a pistol in confined spaces without earpro before.

I have. It's loud. Tweety Bird doesn't appear and start circling around your head. You can still function.


Yeah second this, it's not like someone hit you with a flash bang, it's just loud. If the noise really worries you you can always invest in a suppressor.
   
Made in au
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight





Australia

 AustonT wrote:
About 1 in 5. I know, numbers right?


Sure. Let's run with that. I want you to remember though, this is the number you chose. If we go with the numbers from your chart, this gives us 10,000,000 homes. With 8,000 home invasions per day, this gives means on any given day you've got less than 0.01% chance of a home invasion happening.

Now, if we filter out the break-ins that happen when nobody is home, the break-ins where the assailant will flee when confronted, the break-ins to abandoned homes by squatters and kids, and how likely does it seem that you'll get to use that gun to chase away a scary man breaking into your home? Hell, let's reduce it further by concentrating home invasions where they belong: the gakky neighbourhoods, which are over-represented.

Conversely, you're more than twice as likely to be in a car accident. I guess the money spent on your guns would be more efficiently invested in your safety by regular advanced driving courses and better car maintenance. But that doesn't satisfy the primitive reptilian part of your brain, does it? Gotta protect mah propertay, huh?


"Did you ever notice how in the Bible, when ever God needed to punish someone, or make an example, or whenever God needed a killing, he sent an angel? Did you ever wonder what a creature like that must be like? A whole existence spent praising your God, but always with one wing dipped in blood. Would you ever really want to see an angel?" 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Kaldor wrote:how likely does it seem that you'll get to use that gun to chase away a scary man breaking into your home?

About 1 in 5.

 Avatar 720 wrote:
You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.

Come check out my Blood Angels,Crimson Fists, and coming soon Eldar
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/391013.page
I have conceded that the Eldar page I started in P&M is their legitimate home. Free Candy! Updated 10/19.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/391553.page
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
 
   
Made in ca
Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord





Kaldor wrote:
 AustonT wrote:
About 1 in 5. I know, numbers right?


Sure. Let's run with that. I want you to remember though, this is the number you chose. If we go with the numbers from your chart, this gives us 10,000,000 homes. With 8,000 home invasions per day, this gives means on any given day you've got less than 0.01% chance of a home invasion happening.

Now, if we filter out the break-ins that happen when nobody is home, the break-ins where the assailant will flee when confronted, the break-ins to abandoned homes by squatters and kids, and how likely does it seem that you'll get to use that gun to chase away a scary man breaking into your home? Hell, let's reduce it further by concentrating home invasions where they belong: the gakky neighbourhoods, which are over-represented.

Conversely, you're more than twice as likely to be in a car accident. I guess the money spent on your guns would be more efficiently invested in your safety by regular advanced driving courses and better car maintenance. But that doesn't satisfy the primitive reptilian part of your brain, does it? Gotta protect mah propertay, huh?


I drive a very reliable and well-maintained car. Thanks for your concern, though! Also, your argument is the equivalent of saying that you don't live near a lake, so there's no need to learn to swim. Just because something is unlikely does not mean you should not consider it.

Kaldor wrote:Now, if we filter out the break-ins where the assailant will flee when confronted

Ah, but we won't be filtering these out, as without a proper deterring factor (such as, but not limited to) a firearm, there is no reason to assume that the assailant will flee. And as I've said, it's not wise to take half-measures; nobody should bring a knife to a potential gunfight. So long as the homeowner is practiced with their firearm, and adheres to safe firearms handling procedures, then there is every reason to think that the homeowner with a firearm is the optimal situation in the event that an assailant does break-in whilst the homeowner is present.
   
Made in us
Hallowed Canoness





The Void

Sooo Kaldor I seem to recall you carried a gun every day for more then a couple of years, why? I mean your chances of being involved in a violent altercation are so slim any way, it'd be much more efficient to invest in crisis resolution training.

But that gun and badge do a lot to satisfy the primitive reptilian part of your brain don't they?

I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long


SoB, IG, SM, SW, Nec, Cus, Tau, FoW Germans, Team Yankee Marines, Battletech Clan Wolf, Mercs
DR:90-SG+M+B+I+Pw40k12+ID+++A+++/are/WD-R+++T(S)DM+ 
   
Made in au
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight





Australia

 AustonT wrote:
Kaldor wrote:how likely does it seem that you'll get to use that gun to chase away a scary man breaking into your home?

About 1 in 5.


60% of the time, you'll need it every time, huh?

"Did you ever notice how in the Bible, when ever God needed to punish someone, or make an example, or whenever God needed a killing, he sent an angel? Did you ever wonder what a creature like that must be like? A whole existence spent praising your God, but always with one wing dipped in blood. Would you ever really want to see an angel?" 
   
Made in gb
Courageous Grand Master




-

A lot of people on this site have military experience, so being thrust into a violent situation is something they have been trained for, and therefore can react accordingly.

The points I made were on behalf of the average joe homeowner who is unlikely to be:

a) military trained

b) used to violence

c) As mentioned earlier, bought his gun, shot it a few times, and stuck it in a box for two years.

d) and being american, fearful of girl scouts selling cookies

Obviously, knives have their pros and cons, but a knife won't jam on you, can be used in a confined space better than a sword (thank you azazel) and as Garek from star trek said: stabbing a man in the back is the safest way

Anybody on this site who is prepared to risk my wrath by breaking into my flat better be prepared to take on an overweight drunk armed with a bread knife and a tin of citadel white primer! So there!

"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Kaldor wrote:
 AustonT wrote:
Kaldor wrote:how likely does it seem that you'll get to use that gun to chase away a scary man breaking into your home?

About 1 in 5.


60% of the time, you'll need it every time, huh?

some chick in Aliens vs Predator wrote:Same principle as a condom. I'd rather have one and not need it, then need it and not have one.

You know like a defibrillator.

 Avatar 720 wrote:
You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.

Come check out my Blood Angels,Crimson Fists, and coming soon Eldar
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/391013.page
I have conceded that the Eldar page I started in P&M is their legitimate home. Free Candy! Updated 10/19.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/391553.page
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
 
   
Made in us
Imperial Admiral




 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
A lot of people on this site have military experience, so being thrust into a violent situation is something they have been trained for, and therefore can react accordingly.

The points I made were on behalf of the average joe homeowner who is unlikely to be:

a) military trained

b) used to violence

c) As mentioned earlier, bought his gun, shot it a few times, and stuck it in a box for two years.

d) and being american, fearful of girl scouts selling cookies

Obviously, knives have their pros and cons, but a knife won't jam on you, can be used in a confined space better than a sword (thank you azazel) and as Garek from star trek said: stabbing a man in the back is the safest way

Anybody on this site who is prepared to risk my wrath by breaking into my flat better be prepared to take on an overweight drunk armed with a bread knife and a tin of citadel white primer! So there!

Anyone who's remotely serious about safe and effective self-defense with a firearm will tell you to get training, then more training, and then some training. I've had a fair amount, and I still make an effort to take at least a couple of civilian classes a year. And, for the record, I doubt anyone who heads down to Wally World and picks up a hunting knife is going to be more competent and less a danger to himself and loved ones if he ever has to use that knife in self-defense than the guy who heads down to Bob's Guns and picks up a Jennings .25.

   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






You might even spend less on the Jennings.
Hey-O


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hmm I might get myself a CZ 75 P-01 or a Rock Island 4" 9mm for Xmas. And considering I can't find anyone stalking RIA...


Or a Nikon D3100.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/09 02:29:30


 Avatar 720 wrote:
You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.

Come check out my Blood Angels,Crimson Fists, and coming soon Eldar
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/391013.page
I have conceded that the Eldar page I started in P&M is their legitimate home. Free Candy! Updated 10/19.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/391553.page
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Anime High School

What are the laws around non-firing/dummy weapons? Can you be arrested for concealed carrying one? I saw someone selling a Colt Python non-firing model (I assume it was evidence or something like that, or confiscated by the ATF) for a good price.

I imagine that you would be arrested without hesitation, since for all intensive purposes, it appears to be a firearm, and even to a trained eye, it couldn't be identified as a "fake" without "unloading" it and observing that there's no firing pin.

At the end of the day, what law would you actually be breaking? I'm not trying to dance around the law or anything, I'm just genuinely curious.


 
   
Made in us
Hallowed Canoness





The Void

Well if you wave it around you could be arrested for brandishing or something similar. But if you just carry it... and it's not a real gun.... and you don't do ANYTHING but carry it... I don't think you actually can get nailed for anything.

On a side note: here's a defensive pistol engagement.

71 yr old male vs. two 19 yr old males. Winner? Old guy! And we have three angles on the video tape!

http://wizbangblog.com/2012/07/18/video-shows-florida-armed-robbery-foiled-by-armed-patron/

I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long


SoB, IG, SM, SW, Nec, Cus, Tau, FoW Germans, Team Yankee Marines, Battletech Clan Wolf, Mercs
DR:90-SG+M+B+I+Pw40k12+ID+++A+++/are/WD-R+++T(S)DM+ 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Captain Fantastic wrote:What are the laws around non-firing/dummy weapons? Can you be arrested for concealed carrying one? I saw someone selling a Colt Python non-firing model (I assume it was evidence or something like that, or confiscated by the ATF) for a good price.

I imagine that you would be arrested without hesitation, since for all intensive purposes, it appears to be a firearm, and even to a trained eye, it couldn't be identified as a "fake" without "unloading" it and observing that there's no firing pin.

At the end of the day, what law would you actually be breaking? I'm not trying to dance around the law or anything, I'm just genuinely curious.

Your question doesn't have an easy answer. What it really depends on is the action of the person. If you just tuck in your waste and and wander around. And for some reason (let's say stop and frisk since its good and unconstiutional) and it was discovered. No laws are broken. Let's say your playing the adult version of cops and robbers in the park and the cops show up. Rehearsing for a movie NBD.
Rob a gas station with it: ADW, brandishing, criminal endangerment, blah blah.
By itself a rubber gun is a rubber gun. No different than a water pistol or a kids cap gun.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Somehow I missed the dummy no firing part, and went with a blue gun. If it was carried other than transportation it would likely be treated as a real gun, in areas where firearms ownership or carry is restricted. Otherwise all the other explanations still apply.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/09 06:10:09


 Avatar 720 wrote:
You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.

Come check out my Blood Angels,Crimson Fists, and coming soon Eldar
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/391013.page
I have conceded that the Eldar page I started in P&M is their legitimate home. Free Candy! Updated 10/19.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/391553.page
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
 
   
Made in us
Imperial Admiral




 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Well if you wave it around you could be arrested for brandishing or something similar. But if you just carry it... and it's not a real gun.... and you don't do ANYTHING but carry it... I don't think you actually can get nailed for anything.

On a side note: here's a defensive pistol engagement.

71 yr old male vs. two 19 yr old males. Winner? Old guy! And we have three angles on the video tape!

http://wizbangblog.com/2012/07/18/video-shows-florida-armed-robbery-foiled-by-armed-patron/

No. I have it on good authority that such lawful use of firearms to protect lives or property never occurs. Clearly that was staged.

And LOL at the guy running over his buddy to get away from Father Time.
   
Made in us
Hallowed Canoness





The Void

 Seaward wrote:
 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Well if you wave it around you could be arrested for brandishing or something similar. But if you just carry it... and it's not a real gun.... and you don't do ANYTHING but carry it... I don't think you actually can get nailed for anything.

On a side note: here's a defensive pistol engagement.

71 yr old male vs. two 19 yr old males. Winner? Old guy! And we have three angles on the video tape!

http://wizbangblog.com/2012/07/18/video-shows-florida-armed-robbery-foiled-by-armed-patron/

No. I have it on good authority that such lawful use of firearms to protect lives or property never occurs. Clearly that was staged.

And LOL at the guy running over his buddy to get away from Father Time.


Yeah that made my day.

I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long


SoB, IG, SM, SW, Nec, Cus, Tau, FoW Germans, Team Yankee Marines, Battletech Clan Wolf, Mercs
DR:90-SG+M+B+I+Pw40k12+ID+++A+++/are/WD-R+++T(S)DM+ 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 whembly wrote:
 d-usa wrote:
All this silly knife talk.

At least get a sword like a real man.

Hey... I have my Katana on my Fireplace mantle!


I have Stockings filled with chocolate.
On the positive I have two wiener dogs not filled with chocolate, but angry bitey!

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Are you aware that chocolate filled stockings are a greater danger to you than your assailant?


And that might actually be true.

 Avatar 720 wrote:
You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.

Come check out my Blood Angels,Crimson Fists, and coming soon Eldar
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/391013.page
I have conceded that the Eldar page I started in P&M is their legitimate home. Free Candy! Updated 10/19.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/391553.page
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

I hope so! I'm sick of paying bills!

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
 
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