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I realize that a preheresy army could never be played in a tournament, thats not where I am at. I like tournaments but I love to just play the game. I got my copy of Betrayal today, and it is just amazing. I have been playing 40k since the Rogue Trader days and have loved the Heresy since I started playing 40k.

I would like this to be my regular 40k army, and want to know how many of you would have a problem playing against an army like this. Going to start it out with around a couple HQs. 3 tac squads, a couple terminator squads, an Achilles Land Raider, a Spartan, and a Storm Eagle. That might sound pretty impressive but remember the Achilles is 300 points and it can be killed almost as easily as a standard raider, and the Spartan is over 300 points an is not as protected as the Achilles is.

I am not doing this for the primarchs, I wouldn't field a primarch unless I was playing at least a 3k game or higher an at that point you are in Apoc range, I just love the fluff and the model range. Am looking forward to seeing what they do with Dorn though.

Won't be running all of this all the time, but this is what I am going to start with.

It clashes. I play Warhammer Forty Thousand. Not Warhammer Thirty Thousand.

Now, while it clashes, it's still at least in-universe, as opposed to things like Hello Kitty space marines or MLP marines.

I'll play against it, but I'd prefer to play against another 40k army instead.

Go for it. Anyone who has a problem against a Legion army (particiularly if its fully painted, and contains of of FW's goodies) is someone you probably didnt want to play against to begin with.

your poll is a little peculiar

 Kaldor wrote:
It clashes. I play Warhammer Forty Thousand. Not Warhammer Thirty Thousand.

Now, while it clashes, it's still at least in-universe, as opposed to things like Hello Kitty space marines or MLP marines.

I'll play against it, but I'd prefer to play against another 40k army instead.

Well time is a pretty much abused regularly in 40k, Abbadon, Kharn an even Bjorn the Fell Handed are over 10,000 years old. Easily explained a cruiser carrying a large detachment of Imperial Fists was presumed lost due to a warp storm just after the Heresy an emerges 10000 years in the future. Far fetched? How about a twenty thousand year old corpse sitting on a golden throne


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 King Pariah wrote:
your poll is a little peculiar

How could I change it?

That is true. for the sake of fluff a pre heresy legion could of been lost in the warp for 10k years.

I'm more curious about rules balance and how it works out against regular 40k.

 Desubot wrote:
That is true. for the sake of fluff a pre heresy legion could of been lost in the warp for 10k years.

I'm more curious about rules balance and how it works out against regular 40k.

Well the mechanics are all the same of course, and some of the stuff is pretty out there, like Contemptor and Land Raider Squadrons, but really those types of units would run in the many hundreds of point ranges anyway. I would still aim to do 2k games or smaller, so like I said no Primarch type stuff. There is just so many different ways to customize your units. For instance you can have a full10 man dev unit all with missile launchers and flak missiles. Sounds OP right? Its 315 points. The point costs from what I have seen so far balance out the crazyness.

Apparently the team working on Betrayal worked out that Legion lists were made to be played against other Legion lists, and that they actually suffer against most of the "standard" 40k army Codexes. Something to do with the Legion armies being slow as molasses, iirc.

 Ronin wrote:
Apparently the team working on Betrayal worked out that Legion lists were made to be played against other Legion lists, and that they actually suffer against most of the "standard" 40k army Codexes. Something to do with the Legion armies being slow as molasses, iirc.

That is true, the Cataphracti terminators have slow an purposeful but have a 4+ invuln instead. For the sake of not getting into trouble I won't say any more, but there are transport options. An lets face it, 6th is moving heavily towards mass infantry anyway.

Also I should note that Matt Ward was in no way credited with Betrayal, so thats a good thing, because it shows. lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Should also say that the design team that worked on Betrayal did an outstanding job. In 40k they always seem to harp on the fact that so much tech has been lost over the years, well that doesn't necessarily mean it was better. An it's cool to see the weapons we have become used to seeing associated with Chaos marines being standard issue with the Legions. If you have any interest in the Heresy I would recommend Betrayal, I know it's pricey but it's worth it.

I'd have a problem with it in a pickup game because FW have explicitly stated that the list is not balanced for games against 40k armies, and I don't want to spend a bunch of time studying your list and trying to figure out whether it's going to be a balanced game or a massacre. Just use the models to play a 40k marine army (and don't forget that many Heresy models also have rules for 40k).

I might play against it if you asked in advance and showed me your list, depending on whether or not it seems like a balanced army that matches up well against 40k armies, or an attempt to exploit every advantage a "not for normal 40k" list offers.

I would play against you if you're a friend and we have a habit of arranging special games, since I have motivation to help you have fun with your new toys.

To the OP, the problem with your poll is that it doesn't differentiate between using a pre-heresy count as (as in C:SM, SW, CSM etc) or actually using the betrayal book, so I think some people are getting confused. Personally I've started a Luna Wolves army using count as SW for when I go to the FLGS. I leave betrayal for when I play HH with the mates at home, that way people don't have to put of any injustice that may come out from the match up.

Space Marines are Space Marines. I'd rather play against a Pre-Heresy army than some ridiculous Grey KnightsxOrks abomination.

Your poll question and answer choices confuse me.

"Would you have a problem playing against a Preheresy army?"

No, its not meant to played with standard 40k

You just asked if people would have a problem with against a 30k army, and your second answer is "No, I would have a problem playing against a 30k army".

The First answer is "Yes, it's the Heresy". Does that mean "Yes, I have a problem playing against a 30K" or "Yes, I have no problem."

Your question and answer choices are poorly written.


Edit: It really isn't meant to be played against normal 40k lists. However, my group will be trying these out soon, but only as 30k vs 30k armies.

 Desubot wrote:
That is true. for the sake of fluff a pre heresy legion could of been lost in the warp for 10k years.

I'm more curious about rules balance and how it works out against regular 40k.

curious about rules balance...
rules balance...
balance...

Bro, do you even 40k?

 Goat wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
That is true. for the sake of fluff a pre heresy legion could of been lost in the warp for 10k years.

I'm more curious about rules balance and how it works out against regular 40k.

curious about rules balance...
rules balance...
balance...

Bro, do you even 40k?

rofl. Yes regular 40k is so balanced right now

Can't say I am overly suprised by the poll results so far, am sure though that once people get a look at the units and their stat lines and wargear they won't have a problem running against a preheresy legion.

If painted, yes.

If you spent that much time and money on building a Pre-Heresy army (With legit models, not proxies) then I will play against you even if just for the sake of being able to ogle your models without standing awkwardly by the table.

Also your poll question doesn't match the answers.

I have played one of the mission and deployments from the Heresy book using normal 40K codex armies, and the result was awful.

Ambush does not work as a deployment IMO. The defender is put at an immediate and severe disadvantage, while the attacker can just sit back and pound the hell out of you with everything they have for first turn (because most everything is within range from the start). Throw that on top of a mission such as Onslaught, and it ended up being a complete waste of time.

That being said, some of the missions sound fun, and Onslaught would have been on a standard deployment, but that Ambush deployment needs to be removed.

I'd be willing to give it a shot, if it was done well and the rules didn't seem to OP for the units cost.

Fluffwise i'm good. Orks have been around since the year dot, and my DE are a time-of-the-fall Eldar religious cult

Ruleswise, i'd need to see them first. I'm not too familiar with most of the non-codex units, and some of them are a bit gonzoed ruleswise.

xSPYXEx wrote:
If painted, yes.

If you spent that much time and money on building a Pre-Heresy army (With legit models, not proxies) then I will play against you even if just for the sake of being able to ogle your models without standing awkwardly by the table.

Also your poll question doesn't match the answers.

Apologies I posted it late last night and was in awe of Betrayal. Its fixed now.

Both armies should use the Crusade Force Org for this. It isn't really intended for use with 40k armies but it works ok. I say do what you and your opponent find to be fun. However if you go this path you should expect some resistance from some players.

If you rocked up with a really nice looking pre heresy army full of well painted fw models then I'd be delighted to play you. Maybe I'd want a quick look at some of your rules beforehand but Yeh, definitely. It's only a game. Doesn't matter if it isn't perfectly balanced, it'd be fun.

Probably.

I wouldn't play against an unpainted/partially assembled army maxed out on all the crazy broken pre-Heresy tech items though.

Heh. Over here, we completely replaced C:SM with Codex: Legions. They are just much cooler and more 6th ed compatible than the C:SM book.

So yeah, you could use it here for sure! But only with the normal FoC.

As a random pick-up game at the store, no I wouldn't. Forgeworld's stated that it isn't meant to be balanced vs. 40k armies, although certain 40k armies do end up being hard counters to it.

If you told me beforehand though, I'd definitely be in to give it a try. It's all about not springing something like that on an opponent wthout warning.

If they used their FW heresy models as counts-as 40k models? Sure
Using the heresy rules? I'd have to read them over before i'd say yes or no.

Either way, I'd congratulate them on the army, which I am sure would be gorgeous.

Most poorly written poll I've seen on DakkaDakka...

Yes, I would play against it. I've got the HH book, and I have created a few forces to see how nasty I could make them. They really don't stack up that bad against SM, CSM, SW, BA, GK, etc. In fact, I wouldn't say in a tournament that a HH force would win... unless it had a primarch... they're aweful tough

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
The defender is put at an immediate and severe disadvantage, while the attacker can just sit back and pound the hell out of you with everything they have for first turn (because most everything is within range from the start).

Is this generally not what is supposed to happen when one is ambushed?

Not much of a tactical advantage if you try to give your oppenent a chance...

 Lobukia wrote:
Most poorly written poll I've seen on DakkaDakka...

Yes, I would play against it. I've got the HH book, and I have created a few forces to see how nasty I could make them. They really don't stack up that bad against SM, CSM, SW, BA, GK, etc. In fact, I wouldn't say in a tournament that a HH force would win... unless it had a primarch... they're aweful tough

If ya don't like the poll why why bother responding to it?

valace2 wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Most poorly written poll I've seen on DakkaDakka...

Yes, I would play against it. I've got the HH book, and I have created a few forces to see how nasty I could make them. They really don't stack up that bad against SM, CSM, SW, BA, GK, etc. In fact, I wouldn't say in a tournament that a HH force would win... unless it had a primarch... they're aweful tough

If ya don't like the poll why why bother responding to it?

Learn to read. I said it was poorly written... not that I didn't like the question it tries to pose or the thought behind it.

The better question would have been "Would you play against an HH army?"

Then the choices would have been a clear "Yes" or "No" with whatever qualified responses included. Answering a negative with a negative is poor polling (and often used in politics to trick people into answering the opposite of their intent).

 Lobukia wrote:

valace2 wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Most poorly written poll I've seen on DakkaDakka...

Yes, I would play against it. I've got the HH book, and I have created a few forces to see how nasty I could make them. They really don't stack up that bad against SM, CSM, SW, BA, GK, etc. In fact, I wouldn't say in a tournament that a HH force would win... unless it had a primarch... they're aweful tough

If ya don't like the poll why why bother responding to it?

Learn to read. I said it was poorly written... not that I didn't like the question it tries to pose or the thought behind it.

The better question would have been "Would you play against an HH army?"

Then the choices would have been a clear "Yes" or "No" with whatever qualified responses included. Answering a negative with a negative is poor polling (and often used in politics to trick people into answering the opposite of their intent).

Again with the negative comment, I noticed your comment regarding the topic of the thread, but all anyone would be drawn to is your opening comment. Like I said it was pretty late, and I was still giddy over Betrayal. Could the wording have been better? Sure hell you should have seen what it looked like earlier it was a total mess.As for the political reference, yea like that was my intent.

I don't need things sugar coated, but you understand the poll and so does everyone else so what difference does it make how its worded?

As for it winning in a tournament, yes of course there are builds that could win in a tournament. Pride of the Legion would make any list a lot stronger with cheaper scoring Cataphracti and normal terminators, but I am not aiming to build a super list out of this.