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Someone requested a battle between my bugs versus daemons. So I decided to bring my bugs this time to my LGS. Then Jason shows up with his daemons. Surprise, surprise. Jason is a fledging daemons player who I've played against several times. Two of our battles that I've bat-repped:
He has never beaten me yet, but he's getting better with every game. His list is also getting nastier everytime I've played against him, thanks in part to my advice and also to his growing experience. Due to my experience over him, I've given him a +200pt handicap once again. But unlike our last battle, this time, I wonder if my bugs may be the ones who are the underdogs.
For my list, I am trying out a dual-flyrant, triple-tervigon build. It is a very tough army, and while it may not fight as hard as my Swarmlord-flyrant list, it does have better shooting and much more mobility.
I'd still have to give this one to the Nids. My prediction...the Nids will take a serious beating (perhaps more than the Daemons), but win the objective game. Without the 200 point advantage, Nids would easily win, imo.
I'm loving the evolution of your Tyranid lists, even if you're just testing things out. Not entirely related to your battle report, what are your thoughts on Trygons and Ymgarl Genestealers? I still can't decide if they're a good fit. I know you prefer "shootier" lists, but have you tried them out yet?
I think you're going to get a good game here. It really does depend if those Tervigons are victim to target priority, because if they are then everything else will be easily dealt with. I am gonna vote for Daemons, but that's because I am biased
warhammer 40,000 tactica and hobby blog - www.imperiusdominatus.com
Want list feedback and advice? e-mail imperiusdominatus@live.co.uk
Blood Angels - 2000 Iron Warriors - 2000 Orks -2000 Imperial Guard - 2000
Eldar - 2000 Hive Fleet Krakken - 2000 Dark Eldar - 2000 Necrons - 2000 Grey Knights - 2000 Daemons - 2000 Ravenwing - 2000
I want to give it to the nids but i think the 200 point advantage is going to tip it in the demons favor. JY2 do you think you could get up a battle report at some point of your nids vs guard? I just think it would be interesting because I have not seen any by you against them.
Siphen wrote: I'd still have to give this one to the Nids. My prediction...the Nids will take a serious beating (perhaps more than the Daemons), but win the objective game. Without the 200 point advantage, Nids would easily win, imo.
I'm loving the evolution of your Tyranid lists, even if you're just testing things out. Not entirely related to your battle report, what are your thoughts on Trygons and Ymgarl Genestealers? I still can't decide if they're a good fit. I know you prefer "shootier" lists, but have you tried them out yet?
Looking forward to the report!
When I first started nids, I was playing more of an assault list, with triple trygons. It's strong against certain armies. However, the competitive tournament extreme armies of 5E - Space Wolf long fang/razor-spam, Dual-lash Chaos, DE venom-spam and shooty MSU armies - would give my list problems as I would have to chase after them, usually losing all my big guys in the process. I've since evolved to a shooty-based list with biovores. Hive guards would blow up MSU tanks. Biovores would then bombard the clustered up passengers. All without the need to see them so they couldn't hide. I haven't turned back ever since. Now, I mainly run my trygons in games of Apoc.
Ymgarls are a very good unit. My fellow tyranid players and friends, Janthkin and Reecius, both run them with great results. I've used them before as well. Had I not decided to run shooty bugs, I would definitely include them in my army. But I need my hive guards for my list to work. My strategy is to shoot from relative safety. It's unfortunate that hive guards and ymgarls are both in the same FOC slot. If they were in different slots, I would definitely take both.
Arleucs wrote: I'll go for daemons; however I feel that the game will resume to : "do daemons manage to kill flyrants or not".
The volume of fire the horrors can throw out can do the trick; once grounded, even the tyrants will get beaten bu flamers/screamers
That goes both ways. Can daemons kill my flyrants. Also, can bugs kill Fateweaver and his DP? We both have 2 highly-mobile and very dangerous monstrous creatures who are going to be a pain for each other. My strategy at first would be to deal with his flamers and screamers though. They're the units with the real killing power. Now he's got to choose between flyrants, tervigons and biovores. All are dangerous.
mercer wrote: I think you're going to get a good game here. It really does depend if those Tervigons are victim to target priority, because if they are then everything else will be easily dealt with. I am gonna vote for Daemons, but that's because I am biased
Easier said than done. I've got 18 T6 wounds, and when buffed by Iron Arm, is really hard to kill. Besides the flamers, he doesn't have much shooting (that my big guys are afraid of) and his assaults will have to go through gargoyle and termagant screening units. Due to his lack of shooting, I don't anticipate my tervigons dying too early.
BTW, you could say that he is my "Poddy".
SGASheppard wrote: I want to give it to the nids but i think the 200 point advantage is going to tip it in the demons favor. JY2 do you think you could get up a battle report at some point of your nids vs guard? I just think it would be interesting because I have not seen any by you against them.
There's a couple of guard players in my area, but none of them have really competitive lists (at least not by my standards). I think my bugs will roll through their armies, though I will ask for a game next time.
Or I can do a test game against my own guard army? If people are interested in that, then I just may do it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/30 16:03:46
mercer wrote: I think you're going to get a good game here. It really does depend if those Tervigons are victim to target priority, because if they are then everything else will be easily dealt with. I am gonna vote for Daemons, but that's because I am biased
Easier said than done. I've got 18 T6 wounds, and when buffed by Iron Arm, is really hard to kill. Besides the flamers, he doesn't have much shooting (that my big guys are afraid of) and his assaults will have to go through gargoyle and termagant screening units. Due to his lack of shooting, I don't anticipate my tervigons dying too early.
BTW, you could say that he is my "Poddy".
There is a lot of wounds, no denying that, however the Flamer units could gang up on one Tervigon and will see it dead and the Screamers will easily take out another in assault. That's three gone. Of course that's looking at it in a vaccum and not counting damage to the units and position etc etc blah blah. That's what I would do anyway.
Haha, Poddy ftw, he's a pro now
warhammer 40,000 tactica and hobby blog - www.imperiusdominatus.com
Want list feedback and advice? e-mail imperiusdominatus@live.co.uk
Blood Angels - 2000 Iron Warriors - 2000 Orks -2000 Imperial Guard - 2000
Eldar - 2000 Hive Fleet Krakken - 2000 Dark Eldar - 2000 Necrons - 2000 Grey Knights - 2000 Daemons - 2000 Ravenwing - 2000
I played a list very similar to this with my Daemons a few weeks ago - this is actually a really tough matchup for Daemons. The two Flyers throw down a lot of fire and 6 wound MC can be absolutely brutal. He needs to ground those Flyrants early and eat them up before they get a chance to really unload.
Tyranids: I think I would have my work cut out for me this game. Daemons are very good now and Jason's army is a balanced army with plenty of troops. He's also got a respectable amount of shooting with 33 horrors and 23 flamers. The flamers will ignore the saves of my big guys and Warpfire will ignore the saves of my non-monstrous creatures. He's got decent assault with screamers and monstrous creatures. Then he's got great anti-assault with Fateweaver, the 2W flamers and the tarpitting plaguebearers. Finally, he's got excellent mobility with flying monstrous creatures, the jumping flamers, deepstriking troops and the super-fast screamers. In the hands of a more experienced general, this army is very capable of dominating other armies.
While most would think to go after the screamers/flamers and Fateweaver first, my strategy for this game will actually be to go after his troops first. That is because they will be the most vulnerable. He's definitely going to try to get those screamers/flamers to within Fatey's bubble of protection. That would make them just too hard to kill. With my rather limited shooting, I need to try to take down units as efficiently as possible. That means the scoring units and the guys not protected by Fateweaver. Then when those screamers/flamers get closer, I will strike. Taking them down would be tough, but I don't really need to take them out to neutralize them. Instead, my bugs will play to their strengths and that is to tie up the more dangerous units with endless hordes of gribblies. Yes, I don't necessarily have to kill them if only I can pin them in place.
Fatey would be a nuisance though. I really don't have much that can take him out and I can't really afford to focus my entire army against him....not when there are so many other dangerous daemons threats around. I'm afraid that in the early stages, I'm just going to have to ignore him and let him do whatever he wants. When I reduce the other threats to a more manageable level, then I will deal with him.
Chaos Daemons: Let's see if my opponent will learn from his previous battle against my bugs. Before he would deepstrike his flamers aggressively, only to get swamped and overrun by focus-fire and then assault. He also needs to consider carefully when he lands what he wants to do because of my biovores. If he plays offensively and shoots on the turn they come in, then his guys will be bunched up and just ripe for my biovore barrages. However, if he runs and spread outs, then he loses a valuable turn of shooting. I hope that he has learned from his mistakes, because I am going to force him into making some tough decisions. That's what makes my bugs so dangerous (and it's also what makes his daemons so dangerous as well).
As with before, I am the more experienced and tactical player, which is why I am giving him a slight handicap to even the odds. However, my opponent is getting better with every game and this time, he is bringing a much more balanced list than before. Would this be enough to finally give him that elusive victory over me? We shall see....
For Warlord powers, Chaos gets something useless. I get a scoring flyrant.
Tyranid psychic powers (from left to right):
Flyrant #1 - Life Leech, Warp Speed
Doom - Iron Arm
Flyrant #2 (Warlord) - Iron Arm, Hemorrhage
Tervigon #1 - Enfeeble, Life Leech, Warp Speed
Tervigon #2 - Enfeeble, Life Leech, Warp Speed
Tervigon #3 - Iron Arm, Life Leech, Warp Speed
So not 1 single Endurance in my army. Against daemons, Endurance is the best Biomancy power because poisoned attacks and Breath of Chaos do not care about Iron Arm.
I also completely forgot that you can use Life Leech to restore a wound to your psykers. Thus, I did not use that power at all in this game.
Daemons deploy as they normally do....nothing. Everything in reserves to arrive via Daemonic Assault.
Tyranid deployment. I leave the Doom and 1 unit of termagants in reserves. I use my gargoyles and termagants as screening units.
Notice that I did not completely bubble-wrap my guys. Really, in my opinion, there's no need for that. I am not concerned with suicide flamer units. I am more concerned about screamers getting the charge, and hence, I deploy the screening units.
I don't bother to steal the initiative and we begin.
For his Prefered Wave, my opponent chooses and gets:
Fateweaver
1 unit of Flamers
1 unit of Screamers
2 units of Pink Horrors (including the Changeling's unit)
1 unit plaguebearers (with Icon)
Pink horrors land to my left.
Screamers and Changeling's unit land close to the right terrain area.
Fateweaver scatters backwards. Flamers and plaguebearers both land in terrain. Plaguebearers lose their Icon to dangerous terrain and the flamers lose 1 flamer (2 failed DT tests).
Overview of daemon deployment.
Daemons then run. Screamers turbo-boost.
My opponent opts to take the offensive. His horrors target the correct unit and blow away my right biovores for First Blood.
The other horrors are out of range (and LOS) of my left biovores so go after my gargoyles instead. They shoot down 7.
Shooting down the biovores was huge and a very good play by my opponent. Killing those biovores netted him First Blood. I had forgotten during the game, but he also got 1 VP for them because biovores are a Heavy Support choice (Big Guns Never Tire). Also, it drastically reduces my ability to threaten his units on the turn they come in.
Tyranids 1
Spoiler:
I cast my psychic powers, enfeebling both units of horrors.
Tyranids move out. Right tervigon spawns 14 termagants. Flyrant swoops.
Left tervigon spawns 10 gants and runs out. I then forget to move both my left tervigon and his gants. Warlord swoops.
Termagants pass their LD test for Glamour. Focus-fire (including biovores) then wipes out the right pink horrors (with Changeling).
Focus-fire wipes out all but 3 horrors on the left.
Despite Fateweaver's re-rolls (and 4+ turbo-boost cover), my flyrant shoots down 2 screamers.
Not a bad turn. Almost 2 scoring units down, 3 more to go.
Daemons 2
Spoiler:
DP comes in swooping.
Flamers drop in here.
The last unit of flamers drop in near Fateweaver.
His screamers and pink horrors also come in, but both units mishap and go back into reserves. Actually, for the horrors, that might be a good thing.
Chaos advance.
Flamers shoot down 8 out of 10 termagants. Fatey manages to take off 1W from my flyrant with Bolt and kill 2 termagants with Gaze. He also tries to Boon my flyrant but fails. Other flamers focus on my flyrant but fail to do any damage. Flyrant passes all his Grounding tests, thus denying his screamers of the assault they had wanted.
DP puts 1W on my Warlord and the horrors 1W on the tervigon, both with Bolt.
Screamers then assault the termagants and wipe them all out thanks to good rolling by my opponent.
Tyranids 2
Spoiler:
Screamers and flamers both deny my attempts to Enfeeble them. Middle tervigon becomes T9 thanks to Iron Arm.
Termagants come in from reserves. The Doom, however, doesnt'.
Right tervigon spawns 9 termagants.
Tyranids advance towards the right. Middle tervigon spawns 8 gants.
I am going to tie up both the screamers and flamers.
My strategy is this. Gargoyles will charge the flamers and eat their Overwatch. Flyrant will then charge them safely and also in contesting range of his objective.
Lastly, my Warlord flies on top of the impassable terrain.
Termagants finish off the unit of 3 horrors.
Focus-fire from gants and hive guards kill off 2 screamers.
Biovores and termagants focus on the flamers. However, due to bad scatter, bugs only kill 1 flamer as well as 1 termagant.
Focus-fire then from flyrant and gants then wipe out all but 1 flamer unit. Doh! Didn't mean to over-kill them. Wanted to have 2-3 survive for when my flyrant assaults.
Finally, my Warlord shoots down 2 flamers in his deployment zone.
Both units of gants charge the flamers. Overwatch wipes out an entire unit of 10 gants!!!
Flamers kill 3 gants and lose 1 flamer.
Gargoyles eat the Overwatch of the lone flamer (didn't lose any). Flyrant then charges in.
My T9 tervigon charges into the screamers. So do my termagants.
Flyrant and gargoyles wipe out the lone flamer and consolidate.
Tervigon whiffs against the screamers. Gants put 1W on 1 screamer and lose 2 gants in return.
Daemons 3
Spoiler:
Pink horrors come in. He is going after my other biovores.
Screamers come in as well.
Flamers get ready to take out my flyrant. Plaguebearers will assault if they fail.
DP glides and prepares to assault the gants.
Fatey swoops.
He then kills 1 hive guard and 1 termagant and puts 1W on the right tervigon.
Screamers turbo-boost over my Warlord and put 1W on him with their slash attacks. However, this maneuver also puts them outside of Fatey's 6" bubble of protection. BTW, my Warlord cast Iron Arm but is only T7 currently.
Pink horrors fire at my biovores. He rolls terribly and I roll well with my saves. After 27 warpfire shots, which ignore my armour saves, and 1 insta-killing Bolt shot, my biovores only take 1W.
Flamers then put 2W on my flyrant with their shooting. Plagues then charge. Overwatch only manages to kill 1 plaguebearer.
Bolt fails to even kill a gant. His DP then assaults them....
....and only kills 2 gants, taking 1W from counter-attacking, poisoned gants in return.
On the other hand, my flyrant, even with an additional 3 Warp Speed attacks, rolls terribly as well with his Smash attacks, only killing 1 before getting dragged down by poisoned plaguebearer attacks.
Sscreamers kill another 3 gants and I kill 1 screamer.
Flamers also kill 3 gants and lose 1 flamer in return.
Tyranids 3
Spoiler:
The Doom finally comes in. Both the spore and Doom is contesting his objective.
Both tervigons spawn gants - 14 and 7 - and craps out. I am going to teach his screamers a lesson....don't mess with the gribblies!
Gargoyles go to help out the gants.
My Warlord swoops down to help out on the screamers.
Only 1 flamer dies to the Doom's Spirit Leech.
Biovores fire at the squad of 10 pink horrors....3 direct hits!!! 30 hits, 20 wounds, 9 dies. Hive guards finish off the last horror.
After a concerted effort - tervigon cluster spines, gant fleshborers and my Warlord's devourers - all that remains is 1 screamer with 1W left. BTW, it helped tremendously that I was able to get off Enfeeble on him.
Gargoyles then charge into combat.
Flamers kill the 2 gants but gargoyles wipe them out.
Gants go to finish off the other screamer.
Tervigon kills 1 screamer, who finish off the gants in combat with them.
Finally, his DP continues to whittle down the gants.
Daemons 4
Spoiler:
Overview of the top of Turn 4.
This will be the last game turn as the store is closing very soon.
Last unit of plaguebearers automatically come in. He deepstrikes them onto my objective inside the fort. However, they scatter away from it.
It's too bad they can't run towards the objective due to Slow & Purposeful. That could be a game changer right there....
Flamers go after the Doom. Plaguebearers prepare to assault the spore.
Fateweaver glides. His strategy is to assault the gargoyles and stay locked in combat, all while contesting my objective.
However, my opponent makes 1 critical mistake which may cost him the game....
My opponent has a brain fart and fires everything at my Warlord, hoping to get Slay the Warlord - Gaze, Bolt and Boon. My Warlord survives with just 1W remaining.
However, now my opponent cannot assault the gargoyles....
Flamers take 2W off of the Doom. Then we go to assault.
1 gant survives!
Plagues wipe out the spore. Flamers put 1W on the Doom (2W remaining).
Finally, my tevgion finishes off his last screamer, though he did manage to put 2W on my T7 Iron Armed tervigon.
Tyranids 4
Spoiler:
I made 1 crucial mistake in this game as well....I forgot that we were playing Big Guns Never Tire (actually, we both forgot)!!! I never moved my biovores, who were scoring, towards the left objective even though I could have very easily done so.
So currently, neither of us have an objective (1 empty, 2 contested). He's got 2 VP's for First Blood and for killing 1 unit of biovores. I have nothing. I only have 1 shot at winning. I need to kill Fateweaver. Kill him and I win. Fail to do so and my opponent wins. I have a chance, as Fateweaver is no longer flying. He switched to glide mode last turn in order to assault....and then denied himself of the assault.
Tervigon moves towards the objective, but with a crappy run roll, fails to get within claiming range (actually, not sure even if he had ran 6" would he be in claiming range).
I prepare to unleash the full fury of my entire army at my opponent's Warlord.
Tervigon goes to contest his objective just in case his flamers kill the Doom.
After an ungodly amount of firepower, Fatey is still standing with 1W remaining. Doh!!!
Tyranids: Wow. That was a close game. One that I could have easily lost due to my mistake. I forgot that this was Big Guns Never Tire - that my biovores were scoring and gave away VP's as well. I also should have moved my left tervigon much sooner to the far-left objective. Had I remembered him....no, had I focused on the mission objectives rather than just to kill stuff....I could have secured that objective earlier and made the game tougher for my opponent. It wouldn't have made the game a guaranteed win, but it would have been his army trying to dislodge my troops from the objective rather than for me to try to make it to the objective. Had his plaguebearers landed directly or scattered by a few inches less, he would have had the objective and possibly won the game. I was just fortunate they scattered.
Other than that, I think my strategy was good. It would have been too hard to try to take down his flamers/screamers and/or Fateweaver early because they were just too far for most of my guys to shoot or my guys didn't have LOS to them. Instead I focused on the easier-to-kill units and only when his screamers/flamers moved into the threat range of my army did I focus onto them. Also, this is how you assault flamers. Throw a sacrificial unit into assault first to absorb the Overwatch before assaulting with your more important units. Fortunately for the bugs, they can do this quite easily as they can generate those "sacrificial" units whereas most other armies can't really afford to.
In any case, I am happy with the results. Tzeentch daemons after the White Dwarf updates are a very good, top-tier army, but I'm finding tyranids to be able to hold their own against these armies. Not only hold their own, but they can dominate as well. The more I play my bugs, the more impressed I am becoming with them in 6th edition.
Chaos Daemons: My opponent played much better this time around. He did make some mistakes, including 1 huge game-changing brain-fart of a mistake, but I am going to attribute these to his "growing pains" against my armies. What are some of his mistakes?
1. He is probably not aware of this, but he will probably have much better results with a refused-flank approach against my armies (actually, against most armies in general). Take on my bugs as a whole and it becomes very, very tough to face. However, chew through my army from the flanks and it becomes much harder for my bugs to support each other.
2. His DP assaulted my gants just outside claiming range of the objective. He needs to take into account the objectives when he makes his moves. For example, when I assaulted his flamers with my flyrant, I made sure to do so within contesting range of his objective.
3. Moving his screamers into the heart of my army and outside of Fateweaver's bubble of protection. It's easy to under-estimate the focus-fire of my entire army. It's also easy to over-estimate the toughness of screamers/flamers. This is the result - slaughter. What he needs to do is to get those screamers into combat as soon as possible, not leave them out in the open for my entire army to shoot and then assault. Even with Fatey's re-rolls, I'm not sure they would have survived. But in his defense, I believe this is the very first time he has used screamers (those are actually my models).
4. He needs to watch out for the threat range of my tervigon-spawned termagants. I caught his flamers (and horrors) with them, thus neutralizing them for the most part. You don't always have to play the flamers/horrors so aggressively. Sometimes, it's ok to deepstrike them back a little more and spend 1-2 turns to shoot down my gribblies. But at least he was able to take out 1 unit of biovores with his aggressive play.
5. I attribute this whopper of a mistake to a brain-fart, but he was intending to assault the gargoyles with Space Chicken and to tie them up while in contesting range of my objective. However, he then fires everything at my Warlord, thus denying himself the assault against my gargoyles. That was a game-changer of a mistake as Fatey had to endure the entire shooting of my army. Otherwise, he very well may have probably lived and won the game.
Despite some of his mistakes, he did make some good moves:
1. With the exception of 1 unit of flamers, he played the other flamers and screamers more conservatively, deepstriking them back and out of the threat range of my army. Against my army, you have to do that or you will get swamped by my gants.
2. He went after my biovores. Statistically, he probably should have gotten both of them had the dice not failed him against the 2nd unit of biovores. That was a good move, removing himself of a serious threat and netting him Victory Points at the same time.
3. He supported his units with Fateweaver for the most part.
While he didn't quite win this time, he is starting to get the hang of daemons. I suspect next time I play against his daemons, I may not be able to afford him the handicap that I've been giving him currently. And that is a good thing.
This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2012/12/02 15:44:22
1. With the exception of 1 unit of flamers, he played the other flamers and screamers more conservatively, deepstriking them back and out of the threat range of my army. Against my army, you have to do that or you will get swamped by my gants.
Now I find this interesting. I believe you're a much better player than I am, but I actually disagree with that point (or at least half of it). I think it's better to play hyper-aggressive with the screamers, trying to deep strike them close to a weak screening unit. Turbo-boost the 6" or 7" into the screening unit, then another 18" away. The two units of screamers combined (had he brought them in and everything worked perfectly) should be able to wipe out all of your Gargoyles on turn 1. Thoughts?
Dice rolling aside (if you had better luck rolling good psychic powers, if he had perfect scatters, etc), what do you think about your opponent picking his waves? Would the game have been different if he brought in all of his flamers and screamers instead of 3 troop units on turn 1?
I am not surprised by the outcome of this game. When I saw his preferred wave and initial Deep Strikes I figured he was going to be in trouble.
I think you hit a lot of his mistakes in the first post. I also think he underutilized the Slashing Attacks aspect of Screamers. Further, I am a believer that you need to Deep Strike Fateweaver first in this kind of army. Fate's position dictates where the rest of your army will land. The last unit to Deep Strike should be the Screamers - since they have so much more flexibility than the other units with their Turbo Boosts.
Also, I think Alpha Strike flamers are not really viable unless you plan to bring a Tzeetch Herald - you just cannot get enough Flame templates in without one. Setting up the flamers near fate and then bringing the screamers forward to screen them from assaults would have made a big difference.
1. With the exception of 1 unit of flamers, he played the other flamers and screamers more conservatively, deepstriking them back and out of the threat range of my army. Against my army, you have to do that or you will get swamped by my gants.
Now I find this interesting. I believe you're a much better player than I am, but I actually disagree with that point (or at least half of it). I think it's better to play hyper-aggressive with the screamers, trying to deep strike them close to a weak screening unit. Turbo-boost the 6" or 7" into the screening unit, then another 18" away. The two units of screamers combined (had he brought them in and everything worked perfectly) should be able to wipe out all of your Gargoyles on turn 1. Thoughts?
Dice rolling aside (if you had better luck rolling good psychic powers, if he had perfect scatters, etc), what do you think about your opponent picking his waves? Would the game have been different if he brought in all of his flamers and screamers instead of 3 troop units on turn 1?
As always, thanks for the great report!
The reason you should deepstrike them back a little is because you want a united front against my nids. Basically, hit them with almost your entire army at once. Threatening my bugs with just 1 or 2 units will only end up getting them killed or tied up by gants, freeing my other bugs to go after the rest of the army. Playing aggressive works against many armies (most notably the Imperial ones). However, against some armies - especially the more synergistic ones - you want to either overload 1 flank (refused flank maneuver) or you want to hit them with basically your entire army all at once. Because if you drop just a couple of units at my doorsteps, you are going to have at most half of your army against my entire army. And I guarantee you that my bugs would win that battle most of the time. And if you wipe out 1 or 2 of my gribbly units, it's not a big deal. They were just screening, sacrificial units anyways (including the gargoyles). What you need to beware of, however, is my retaliation - my shooting and counter-attack.
Personally, I play very aggressively. I would've chosen Fatey and all the flamers and screamers for my Prefered Wave. However, some people just prefer to bring in a more balanced wave. I think it would have definitely been much, much tougher had he played very aggressively and brought in all his big guns initially. When he gets to the point that he plays this way, let's just say that I probably wouldn't be able to give him the +200pts handicap in the future.
calypso2ts wrote: I am not surprised by the outcome of this game. When I saw his preferred wave and initial Deep Strikes I figured he was going to be in trouble.
I think you hit a lot of his mistakes in the first post. I also think he underutilized the Slashing Attacks aspect of Screamers. Further, I am a believer that you need to Deep Strike Fateweaver first in this kind of army. Fate's position dictates where the rest of your army will land. The last unit to Deep Strike should be the Screamers - since they have so much more flexibility than the other units with their Turbo Boosts.
Also, I think Alpha Strike flamers are not really viable unless you plan to bring a Tzeetch Herald - you just cannot get enough Flame templates in without one. Setting up the flamers near fate and then bringing the screamers forward to screen them from assaults would have made a big difference.
I will coach him some more the next time we play. How you pick your waves and how you deploy initially is definitely very important. If he knew how to do that properly, then that would be the day I won't be able to give him a handicap anymore.
To be fair, this was the very first time my opponent has used Screamers before, and that was because I told him they were a very good unit that he should try out. He did attempt a slashing attack with them and almost killed my Warlord! However, because of this, he actually ended up out of range of Fateweaver's protection. I think that as he gets more experience with them, he will get better.
He also actually deepstruck Fateweaver first (by my coaching). However, Fateweaver just scattered about 10" back. At least swooping MC's can run 2D6" so it wasn't too bad.
I'm not sure how a Tzeentch Herald would make alpha strike flamers viable. They're still going to be restricted to 3 templates (or at most 4 if the enemy is on a large base like my tervigons). Sure the Herald can target another unit but how much more damage will that really do? Alpha strike flamers only work against particular armies (MEQ forces) or if you do a refused flank maneuver where the retaliation against them is minimal. Against bugs? Not a good idea to play them so aggressively IMO unless the tyranid player deploys very badly.
On your turn 2, you posted that you assaulted his single flamer with your gargoyles, so they would eat the Overwatch, saving your tyrant from having to take it, however, it is my understanding that during your assault phase you are supposed to state all assaults you plan to make at the same time, giving your opponent the chance to decide which unit he will overwatch.
On another side note, am still watching your post in hopes of a Tyranid Vs. Guard match up and great job on your Battle reports!
CitizenVll wrote: On your turn 2, you posted that you assaulted his single flamer with your gargoyles, so they would eat the Overwatch, saving your tyrant from having to take it, however, it is my understanding that during your assault phase you are supposed to state all assaults you plan to make at the same time, giving your opponent the chance to decide which unit he will overwatch.
On another side note, am still watching your post in hopes of a Tyranid Vs. Guard match up and great job on your Battle reports!
No, you perform each charge action one at a time. Declare charge, opponent can then opt to Overwatch and then you move chargers. Then you go on to declare the next charge and do the subsequent charge actions.
I will try to find a game with a guard player next time, though from what I see, many guard players in my area aren't running really optimized lists.
SGASheppard wrote: apparently my computer hates me right now. edited 4 times. (facepalm)
That would be interesting what kind of guard army do you run?
I used to run the standard competitive mech-guard army. You know...melta/plasma-vets in chimeras, 3 vendettas and 2 manticores. But that was early in 5th Ed. Haven't really played guards in probably over a year now.
Wait...no, I have played 1 game with them just before 6E came out. You can check out that batrep here:
Negative, you resolve overwatch before any chargers are moved. you get to pick 1 charging unit to overwatch fire on. I will cite the ruling when I get home, might be on the FAQ.
It's true that you resolve overwatch before chargers are moved and you can only pick a single unit to overwatch, but jy2 is correct. Page 20 of the rulebook summarizes the assault phase.
1. Declare charge.
2. Resolve overwatch.
3. Roll charge range.
4. Charge move.
5. Repeat steps 1-4 or end the charge sub-phase.
Overwatch and even assault moves are completely resolved before declaring a charge with another unit.
Also, thanks for being so patient with the forums jy2...I think I've seen you answer the "when will you play against guard" question at least 3 or 4 times in the past week
Siphen wrote: It's true that you resolve overwatch before chargers are moved and you can only pick a single unit to overwatch, but jy2 is correct. Page 20 of the rulebook summarizes the assault phase.
1. Declare charge.
2. Resolve overwatch.
3. Roll charge range.
4. Charge move.
5. Repeat steps 1-4 or end the charge sub-phase.
Overwatch and even assault moves are completely resolved before declaring a charge with another unit.
Also, thanks for being so patient with the forums jy2...I think I've seen you answer the "when will you play against guard" question at least 3 or 4 times in the past week
That summary does NOT include multiple charges against a single target.
There would be absolutey no reason to clarify that a unit may only fire overwatch once per turn, otherwise.
Great report JY2. Looks like you did a good job of tying his units up early, though I would have thought that the screamers would have been more effective at slashing up your tervigons, those turn in which they were not tied up.
So how did you like the second flyrant over the Swarmlord?
Also, roughly how long are your games running on average? At this weekend's tournie, we had 2.5 hours per game and my nid games went to Turn 4, Turn 2 , and Turn 3 due to time outs.
Siphen wrote: It's true that you resolve overwatch before chargers are moved and you can only pick a single unit to overwatch, but jy2 is correct. Page 20 of the rulebook summarizes the assault phase.
1. Declare charge.
2. Resolve overwatch.
3. Roll charge range.
4. Charge move.
5. Repeat steps 1-4 or end the charge sub-phase.
Overwatch and even assault moves are completely resolved before declaring a charge with another unit.
Also, thanks for being so patient with the forums jy2...I think I've seen you answer the "when will you play against guard" question at least 3 or 4 times in the past week
That summary does NOT include multiple charges against a single target.
There would be absolutey no reason to clarify that a unit may only fire overwatch once per turn, otherwise.
What Redemption said.
The clarification for overwatch is for the case of a failed charge. I declare charge, you overwatch and I then fail my charge. I then declare a charge with my other unit onto the same unit and now you can't do overwatch again.
wyomingfox wrote: Great report JY2. Looks like you did a good job of tying his units up early, though I would have thought that the screamers would have been more effective at slashing up your tervigons, those turn in which they were not tied up.
So how did you like the second flyrant over the Swarmlord?
Also, roughly how long are your games running on average? At this weekend's tournie, we had 2.5 hours per game and my nid games went to Turn 4, Turn 2 , and Turn 3 due to time outs.
Screamers trying to slash the tervigons is not a good move. They slashed my flyrant with only 2W left and couldn't even kill him. How much damage do you think their slashing attacks will do against a 6W MC? Not very much. IMO I would only use those slashing attacks on the gribblies, the biovores or only on MC's that are near death.
I really like the 2nd flyrant. I'm kind of in the same predicament with the flyrant/Swarmlord as with my grey knight psyfleman dreads/dreadknights. Both are really good units that serve different purposes. The flyrant is a surgical strike unit with high mobility. He will start contributing to the offense on Turn 1 assuming he doesn't get shot down and is my best anti-flyer solution. Swarmy is a force-multiplier unit that makes the whole army better. He also serves as a counter-assault unit that protects the army. However, he is quite slow and usually won't see any action usually until Turns 3-4 at best. I've had success with both so right now, I'm still not so sure who I would want to lead my army for sure.
This was just a casual game so we took our time. We played about 3.5 hours until the store closed and only got in 4 turns. With such an army, you definitely need to manage your time wisely. That's because bugs will fully utilize all 3 phases - movement, shooting and assault - to its maximum. Then you've also got to take the time for psychic powers and gant-spawning. So if you take them to a tournament, either learn to play faster or take 1 less tervigon.
I'm not sure how a Tzeentch Herald would make alpha strike flamers viable.
A picture is worth a thousand words! (sadly I did not have a picture of an Alpha Strike on hand, but you can see the premise in the bottom right corner)
The reason it matters, is that is really forces opponents to spread out. Maybe you decide to try for the alpha strike - or maybe you opt not to but either way you can effectively punish deployment mistakes. In some games it is really a 1/3 chance to straight up win the game - crippling them so badly they cannot recover.
That said, I do agree that Flamers against Tyranids play a much different role. They actually are not a great way to wreck the small bugs imo and they usually can only grab 2 or 3 wounds from a Monstrous Creature in my experience. I actually think stronger units in the Tyranid matchup are Daemonettes, Seekers and Fiends. Even the Screamers can struggle in assault with S5 against a T8/9 Tyrant - they make up for it with their pseudo shooting attack from the fly bys.
Also, remember the Screamers do not need to move in a straight line - they can actually bend across units or fly out and back in their turbo boost move. There is no restriction places on minimum displacement and unlike reavers you do not connect two points with a line to see what you flew over.
jy2 wrote: This was just a casual game so we took our time. We played about 3.5 hours until the store closed and only got in 4 turns. With such an army, you definitely need to manage your time wisely. That's because bugs will fully utilize all 3 phases - movement, shooting and assault - to its maximum. Then you've also got to take the time for psychic powers and gant-spawning. So if you take them to a tournament, either learn to play faster or take 1 less tervigon.
Well I am only running two tervigons so I wouldn't feel comfortable removing one. I do have two 18 man units of Gargoyles, which while performing tremendously well in each game I play, they take a lot of time to deploy, move (especially if you have to make dangerous terrain checks), shoot/run, and assault.
Ah, I see what you mean now. If you play that unit aggressively, then you need to play other units aggressively as well. Present multiple high-priority threats all at once to the opponent. And even still, I probably wouldn't play them so aggressively against bugs (or horde orks or wraithwing necrons). But if the opponent deploys badly (i.e. too bunched up or too spread out), then definitely take advantage of that.
Yeah, I think Slaanesh units will actually work better against the nids. The volume of attacks and of rending attacks is what daemons need against the bugs. The screamers didn't make it into Fatey's bubble because they had to make a slight detour in order to slash attack the flyrant. Yeah, I'm aware that they don't have to move in a straight line to execute the attack.
BTW, nice terrain. The blue crystals really pops out.
jy2 wrote: This was just a casual game so we took our time. We played about 3.5 hours until the store closed and only got in 4 turns. With such an army, you definitely need to manage your time wisely. That's because bugs will fully utilize all 3 phases - movement, shooting and assault - to its maximum. Then you've also got to take the time for psychic powers and gant-spawning. So if you take them to a tournament, either learn to play faster or take 1 less tervigon.
Well I am only running two tervigons so I wouldn't feel comfortable removing one. I do have two 18 man units of Gargoyles, which while performing tremendously well in each game I play, they take a lot of time to deploy, move (especially if you have to make dangerous terrain checks), shoot/run, and assault.
Whichever you are most comfortable playing with. Just be aware of how long your own play takes. If you play a little more slowly, then you may want to cut down somewhat on those gargoyles. If you think you can play fast enough, then by all means keep them. Gargoyles are a really good unit.
My general rule of thumb is at least 1 tervigon at 1500. Personally, I prefer 2 for issues of redundancy. Anything higher than 1.5K, I always take at least 2 tervigons. You don't really need to take 3 unless you want to, but IMO the more tervigons you have, the more competitive your list becomes.
I recommend that you time your games next time you play to kind of see how long it takes. Then practice until you can complete a game (or nearly complete it) in reasonable tournament time. Or at least get through 4 turns.
Jason is a fledging daemons player who I've played against several times. Two of our battles that I've bat-repped:
.....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids 
.....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
Blood Angels - 2000 
Iron Warriors - 2000 
Orks -2000 
Imperial Guard - 2000
Eldar - 2000 
Dark Eldar - 2000 
Grey Knights - 2000 
Daemons - 2000 
Ravenwing - 2000 
Warlord swoops.
