Vampire Counts Skeletons

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**Grey Templar**

Guess what Zombies and Skeletons can't do?

**Ineedvc2500**

Check this link out. Its crude but math is pretty solid
http://www.vampirecounts.net/Thread-Skeletons-With-Spears-Worth-It?page=4

**Grey Templar**

Against Halberdiers, who are NOT a good representation of the average unit you may expect to face with your skeletons.

Most T3 enemies you face will have at least a 5+ armor save.

And then you will find that T4 opponents are just as common as, if not more then, T3. Plus they tend to come with either good armor, good fighting strength, or both.

**Ineedvc2500**

Well lets see your statistic buddy? Enemy Toughness nor armour save matters the numbers of wounds caused by skelles would just be lower but still spears out perform swords period.

**-Loki-**

Grey Templar wrote:
And then you will find that T4 opponents are just as common as, if not more then, T3. Plus they tend to come with either good armor, good fighting strength, or both.

That's a tad unfair of a statement, as it depends entirely on your opponents. I know of mine, I won't face much above T3 in rank and file.

**Grey Templar**

Ok, Chaos Warriors with MoT and Shield.

20 against the 60 previously mentioned.

First round.

Warriors go first with 20 attacks. hitting on 3s, wounding on 3s, allowing 6+ armor. 20(2/3)(2/3)(5/6)=7 dead skeletons

53 skeletons hit back. 41 attacks, hitting on 5s, wounding on 5s, allowing a 3+ armor and 5+ parry. 41(1/3)(1/3)(1/3)(2/3)=1 dead warrior

6 skeletons die from crumble. leaving 19 warriors against 46 skeletons

2nd round

Warriors. 20(2/3)(2/3)(5/6)=7 dead skeletons

39 skeletons hit back. 40(1/3)(1/3)(1/3)(2/3)=.98 dead warriors

6 more skeletons die to crumble. leaving 18 warriors vs 33 skeletons

3rd round.

Warriors. 20(2/3)(2/3)(5/6)=7 dead skeletons

26 skeletons hit back. 27(1/3)(1/3)(1/3)(2/3)=.6667 dead warriors

We will generously round up to one dead warrior.

Again, 6 more skeletons crumble. leaving 17 warriors vs 20 skeletons.

4th round.

warriors. 20(2/3)(2/3)(5/6)=7 dead skeletons

13 skeletons hit back. 14(1/3)(1/3)(1/3)(2/3)=.345 dead warriors.

rounding down to no dead warriors.

Warriors have 2 ranks on the Skeletons, so another 9 die.

Leaving 4 skeletons vs 17 warriors.

5th round, warriors cut the skeletons down before they swing.

Now with Shields on the Skeletons.

Round 1

Warriors. 20(2/3)(2/3)(5/6)(5/6)=6 dead skeletons

54 skeletons hit back. 31 attacks(1/3)(1/3)(1/3)(2/3)= .75 dead warriors rounding to 1

5 skeletons die from crumble. leaving 49 skeletons vs 19 warriors.

By giving your skeletons shields, you basically reduce the casualities you take each round by 2.

You reduce the casualities you inflict on the enemy by 25%, gaining a 10% increase in durability.

Basically you make your skeletons survive one additional round of combat.

Now this may not seem like much, but one more round will probably the end of the game. And remember you get no points for units that are still alive.

Your unit of skeletons has basically held up a unit of Chaos warriors the entire game and given up no points. Its called point denial.

Preventing your opponent from getting points is just as valuable as killing him. Plus your spears can't kill him very well anyway, and they lose the spear bonus fast. The parry bonus stays with them to the last man.

**Ozymandias**

There is one reason why I might give my skeletons spears instead of sword and board, and that's when you are filling up your front rank with characters, specifically Wraiths and the Vampire Lord. Then, it doens't matter that you get the parry save, your skeletons aren't really getting attacked. ANd you'll have that one extra rank of guys to maybe, just maybe, cause an extra wound.

And spears look better.

**Ineedvc2500**

Dude the math is so wrong. Ur giving chaos 20 attacks every time. Please submit another

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ur comparing 4 rounds of 20 chaos attacks eventhough the skelles are killing 1 per round and only showing the first round of swords. Lets compare first round to first round then. Spears out perform swords by 25%

**jonolikespie**

If you run the skellies 5 wide, as you should when going tarpit, you get 6 chaos warriors in base to base. That's 6x2 attacks right there, plus 6 more from the second rank and 1 more fro the unit champ.
6+6+6+1=19

And casualties on the warriors side doesn't affect number of attacks until they are reduced to 11 strong.

**Grey Templar**

Right, sorry. They should only have 15

I'm tired.

I'll correct the math tomorrow.

The skeletons will not be able to reduce the Warriors attacks ever. They would need to reduce the warriors to below 10 models. And at the rate they kill them, it would require 10+ rounds of combat.

**Ineedvc2500**

Dont bother i did the math. They survive longer however they dont kill as many as spears do. Either way the skeles with spears out perform those with swords

Automatically Appended Next Post:
What do you mean? They reduce the attacks by 1 every turn if in horde.

**jonolikespie**

No one will run 20 warriors in a horde though. There is LITERALLY no point. They'd be run 5 wide - 7 wide, meaning 16 or 19 attacks (assuming a unit champ.

**Grey Templar**

There is no point to the spears killing more of the Warriors, the difference isn't enough to make it worthwhile. A unit of Blackknights in the flank will earn you the points on the warriors. So make sure the Skeletons can survive as long as possable, so potentially you get multiple units out of the one two combo.

**Ineedvc2500**

If your warriors get MoT then i get IoN every turn

**Grey Templar**

Say what?

Warriors can garuntee MoT, Invocation can be shut down by the enemy and you might not have enough Power Dice.

Sorry, Warriors get MoT, no Invocation for you. Unless the Warriors also get a spell or something. Lets say a buff from a Warshrine. So either +1T, +1Str, or +1 armor. Take your pick.

**Ineedvc2500**

Jono im only going off what hes provided. He wrote 20 attacks i assume 20 warriors ergo horde. But i agree with you.
Grey Your assuming you wont be able to flank until 5 turn? A stationary unit?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
No way grey Thats a "may"ability. This is base core vs base core. They dont get any extra buff unless i get to do IoN. MoT is constant so should IoN if all things being equal.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Even if IoN gets off a couple of times the spears would still out perform and stick around

Automatically Appended Next Post:
IoN only needs 1 di to cast

**jonolikespie**

A tzeench lvl4 will stop IoN if he wants to though. You can counter that by throwing everything you have at it but if you do you're sacrificing your whole magic phase to try and beat him.

Warriors can guarantee their mark every turn, there is no way you can stop it.

**Ineedvc2500**

Warriors have a 4+ save. Champs get the 3+ cuz they hav chaos armour, the warriors only have 4+. We got some serious math to do. Lets crunch some #s

**Grey Templar**

Yeah, it only needs one dice. And thats a 1/3 chance of the wizard losing concentration. Plus your opponent can simply counter dispel it. There are lots of variables with it. Not so with MoT.

And no, I don't assume you won't be able to flank till turn 5. I never said anything like that. You should be flanking either immediatly or at least the turn after the skeletons engage.

MoT is something the warriors can buy, IoN is not. You can't have it unless the warriors also get something that is equally random.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ineedvc2500 wrote:
Warriors have a 4+ save. Champs get the 3+ cuz they hav chaos armour, the warriors only have 4+. We got some serious math to do. Lets crunch some #s

Chaos Armor gives you a 4+

Shield makes it 3+

**Ineedvc2500**

Jono his math is wrong and thats not fair . marks are considered buffs anyway and even if its guaranteed it shouldnt be allowed in this comparioson. What if he was garanteed d6 str9 hits on undead for each hit? See what i mean. Let spears vs basic warrior no marks with a 4+ save and parry save for a representative sample of heavily armoured sword and shield foes. I will do some math

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grey i do not have current chaos codex my bad

**Grey Templar**

Are you sure you have the current Chaos book?

**Ineedvc2500**

Yea no i do not. Shoot sorry man. Lemme do ur numbers again

Automatically Appended Next Post:
So its seriously 20 attack for 2 ranks?

**jonolikespie**

If skeletons are running 5 wide you can place them 6 wide to get 19 attacks from the front 2 ranks. If the skeletons are running 10 wide you can place them 10 wide for 31 attacks.

**Ineedvc2500**

Well i did the math for heavily armoured foes with parry and the 60 skeles with spears in rank and file and they lasted 5 turns. Which is a stsndard game. I took out one of there ranks.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I guess its all about how you form them up. I like jonos 31 thats like 2 warriors (4+) per turn.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Looks like they still out perform sword and shield but not by much

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Hey jono, i just read that 70 zombie massacre post. One thing what ever they went up against i dont think a parry save our crappy armour save would have helped much.

**Grey Templar**

Ineedvc2500 wrote:
Yea no i do not. Shoot sorry man. Lemme do ur numbers again

Automatically Appended Next Post:
So its seriously 20 attack for 2 ranks?

No, somehow I got the MoK effect mixed in there.

At 6 wide, warriors with a champion get 19 attacks. They have 2 attacks base, champs have 3. so 13 plus 6 supporting attacks. All at WS5 I5.

**Ineedvc2500**

I think im playing the wrong army. Its like fighting a unit of VC heroes

**jonolikespie**

Yea WoC have nasty core but I rather piss poor core then a lord that does 8 attacks at S5, rerolls to hit, WS6, I8, red fury and carries a strength potion

Also bty, a unit of vampire heroes could get a max of 42 S5 attacks at WS6 I6 against a unit on 20mm bases that are 5 wide.

**-Loki-**

Ineedvc2500 wrote:
I think im playing the wrong army. Its like fighting a unit of VC heroes

Don't worry, WoC players are just as envious of our Vampire Lords.

**HawaiiMatt**

Thing to remember about this match up is that 6 wide warriors mean that the outside warriors are corner to corner.
If the skeletons stick the unit champ in the corner, then 3 warriors are forced to swing on only the champ.
Likewise, the skeletons chance at killing anything is so low, that they might as well dump as many attacks as they can (6 to 10 attacks) on the chaos unit champ each turn.

It's most likely best to assume that neither side has a champ, as it makes the numbers pretty wonky.
The comparison of 18 warriors vs equal points of skeletons (~60 skeletons) isn't all that useful.
Neither side is likely to kill the other quickly enough to matter, without support of other units. Anything chaos can throw into the flank will most likely mean the death of the skeletons.
Where as a single scream from a terrorghiest will hose the warriors.

What's more important is if the spear is going to matter against softer opponents? If not, take handweapon.

-Matt

**Grey Templar**

Meh, all that really does is mean 3 warrior attacks are forced to kill the Skeleton Champ. Which isn't bad since thats about as many attacks it takes to do it anyway so you really don't lose anything, but you do reduce the skeletons attacks by one before they swing.

Only 2 warriors get stuck attacking the Champ being corner to corner. The Warriors are on larger bases so the warrior just inside the edge should be able to attack the unit just fine.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Where as a single scream from a terrorghiest will hose the warriors.

Really?

Warriors are Ld8, the average roll on 3D6 is 10. So 2 wounds a round on average. Not exactly jaw droppingly effective.