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A question for you guys. What are your thoughts on the order of operations with Gate of Infinity and the gaunt spawning of the Tervigon?

Can you teleport and then spawn, or do you have to spawn first. The only light I have on this is that both the pyschic powers and spawning must be done before movement.

Blessings before movement phase

Teleport, Poop, Move + Charge gants that pop out. Easy!

You have to spawn before you move, and using Gate counts as moving, so you can not gate then pop out gaunts.

 Brometheus wrote:
Blessings before movement phase

Teleport, Poop, Move + Charge gants that pop out. Easy!

Except you cannot move and poop. Dems da rules.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Brometheus wrote:
Blessings before movement phase

Teleport, Poop, Move + Charge gants that pop out. Easy!

Except you cannot move and poop. Dems da rules.

No where in the Tervigon spawning rules does it restrict the Tervigon in any way after spawning. It is perfectly legal to spawn the termagaunts, move, shoot and charge in the same turn with said Tervigon, as well as the Termagaunts.
So in response to the original question, the order would proceed as follows;
1.) Gate of infinity (Done at START OF MOVEMENT PHASE, BEFORE MOVEMENT)
2,) Spawning Termagaunts (Done BEFORE TERVIGON MOVES, BUT NOT AT THE BEGINNING OF THE PHASE)
3.) Movement as per normal (Please note that it is perfectly acceptable to move any units other than Tervigons that plan to spawn inbetween steps 1 and 2, as the spawning simply says "A Tervigon can spawn Termagaunts in the Tyranid Movement phase before is has moved - even if it is locked in assualt." -pg 52)

It is important to note here that should 2 Tyranid players face off, your Tervigons can not spawn in both players movement phases unless they do not move. Definitely not intended for you to spawn outside of your turn, but people will want to.

Neronoxx wrote:

No where in the Tervigon spawning rules does it restrict the Tervigon in any way after spawning. It is perfectly legal to spawn the termagaunts, move, shoot and charge in the same turn with said Tervigon, as well as the Termagaunts.

Yes, but it does restrict the Tervigon before spawning. You cannot first move, then spawn.

Neronoxx wrote:
So in response to the original question, the order would proceed as follows;
1.) Gate of infinity (Done at START OF MOVEMENT PHASE, BEFORE MOVEMENT)

And now Tervigon has moved.

Neronoxx wrote:
2,) Spawning Termagaunts (Done BEFORE TERVIGON MOVES, BUT NOT AT THE BEGINNING OF THE PHASE)

Unfortunately, as the Tervigon that used Gate has already moved, it cannot spawn anymore.

Neron - as pointed out, please review what Gate does (it makes you move) and the restriction on the tervigon - which is that it cannot move then spawn

There's also already an active thread on this topic, still on the front page.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/491823.page

Neronoxx wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Brometheus wrote:
Blessings before movement phase

Teleport, Poop, Move + Charge gants that pop out. Easy!

Except you cannot move and poop. Dems da rules.

No where in the Tervigon spawning rules does it restrict the Tervigon in any way after spawning. It is perfectly legal to spawn the termagaunts, move, shoot and charge in the same turn with said Tervigon, as well as the Termagaunts.
So in response to the original question, the order would proceed as follows;
1.) Gate of infinity (Done at START OF MOVEMENT PHASE, BEFORE MOVEMENT)
2,) Spawning Termagaunts (Done BEFORE TERVIGON MOVES, BUT NOT AT THE BEGINNING OF THE PHASE)
if you GOI you've moved and cannot spawn
3.) Movement as per normal (Please note that it is perfectly acceptable to move any units other than Tervigons that plan to spawn inbetween steps 1 and 2, as the spawning simply says "A Tervigon can spawn Termagaunts in the Tyranid Movement phase before is has moved - even if it is locked in assualt." -pg 52)

It is important to note here that should 2 Tyranid players face off, your Tervigons can not spawn in both players movement phases unless they do not move. Definitely not intended for you to spawn outside of your turn, but people will want to.

 grendel083 wrote:
There's also already an active thread on this topic, still on the front page.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/491823.page

The subject line of that thread seemed to indicate that they OP was asking about GOI in relation to Zoanthropes. I had not read that thread. I'll look into it.

After hearing the discussion in this thread I think I am in the camp of Gate = Movement and thus no spawning afterwards.

Could you please cite the page where it says that gate of infinty counts as moving? Because it says no such thing under the rules for gate of infinity, and under the deep strike rules, but it does not say thay the unit counts as moving, only that they may not move further in the phase. Pg 36 if anyone wants to double check this.

May not move further tells us they have performed a move.

But where does it say deep striking counts as moving? Thats the important part. The "may not move further..." does not state that the unit has actually moved, and is most like to prevent multiple uses of the gate, or etc.

Neronoxx wrote:
Could you please cite the page where it says that gate of infinty counts as moving? Because it says no such thing under the rules for gate of infinity, and under the deep strike rules, but it does not say thay the unit counts as moving, only that they may not move further in the phase. Pg 36 if anyone wants to double check this.

May not move further means quite simply it has moved and "may not move further"

If it didn't count as moving the sentence would be for example. May not move.

Neronoxx wrote:
Could you please cite the page where it says that gate of infinty counts as moving? Because it says no such thing under the rules for gate of infinity, and under the deep strike rules, but it does not say thay the unit counts as moving, only that they may not move further in the phase. Pg 36 if anyone wants to double check this.

there is a very long argument about GOI that creates a lot of rage and ill will and so we'll not get into that bit right now. It seems that everyone here is acting under the assumption that units using GOI are counted as "Deep striking units" if such is the case, then they do, in fact, count as having moved.

In that turn's Shooting phase, these units can fire (or Run) as normal, and obviously count as having moved in the previous movement phase.

Although... RAW that technically only states that deep striking units count as having moved in the shooting phase... ummmmmmmmmm ahh here we go:

In the Movement phase during which they arrive, deep striking units may not move any further

this is much less solid obviously, because it merely implies that the unit in question has moved with the "any further" it doesn't state that the unit has moved... I think most people however would agree that the two rules I quoted mean that deep striking units have moved, and count as such.

hope this helps

I see where the conflict lies, thank you for clarifying Lord PoPo. And yes, this should probably be FAQ'd because i can see someone abusing this.
I run the tourney's at my local store, so forgive me if i seem a little overzealous in my RAW approach. I, personally, do not use GOI. XD

Ahaha. yeah... GOI needs to be FAQd for a lot of reasons. But no problem mate. I run GOI marines and the different permutations of people's version of RAW regarding it can be a huge pain.

Glad I could help!

This is fun

Neronoxx wrote:
The "may not move further..." does not state that the unit has actually moved...

Actually, it quite literally does. Also, you, um, moved it. It's not where it used to be!

Pyrian wrote:

Neronoxx wrote:
The "may not move further..." does not state that the unit has actually moved...

Actually, it quite literally does. Also, you, um, moved it. It's not where it used to be!

Actually, this brings up a good point.

I'm not sure that, just because a unit has been moved, that it counts as having moved in so far as game mechanics are concerned.. Anyone have a ruling on this?

 Lord PoPo wrote:

Pyrian wrote:

Neronoxx wrote:
The "may not move further..." does not state that the unit has actually moved...

Actually, it quite literally does. Also, you, um, moved it. It's not where it used to be!

Actually, this brings up a good point.

I'm not sure that, just because a unit has been moved, that it counts as having moved in so far as game mechanics are concerned.. Anyone have a ruling on this?

Well, unless the rest of your models walk themselves across the table, all the models have been moved.

-Matt

"May not move further" is quite clearly saying the model has moved. You cannot "move further" if you have not moved already.

 Lord PoPo wrote:

Pyrian wrote:

Neronoxx wrote:
The "may not move further..." does not state that the unit has actually moved...

Actually, it quite literally does. Also, you, um, moved it. It's not where it used to be!

Actually, this brings up a good point.

I'm not sure that, just because a unit has been moved, that it counts as having moved in so far as game mechanics are concerned.. Anyone have a ruling on this?

If a model has been moved, it has moved. The only time they specify that a unit "counts as having moved", is if it actually HASN'T moved, but we're counting it as having done so for some reason.

A tervigon can spawn THEN gate, I would say.

 jifel wrote:
A tervigon can spawn THEN gate, I would say.

It can't, as Gate must be done at the start of the movement phase. This would be before spawning.

 jifel wrote:
A tervigon can spawn THEN gate, I would say.

Anything to back up that claim with?

 Mannahnin wrote:

If a model has been moved, it has moved. The only time they specify that a unit "counts as having moved", is if it actually HASN'T moved, but we're counting it as having done so for some reason.

sorry, I really don't mean to be an ass about this , but is there a page or FAQ that you can point me to? I'm perfectly fine with accepting this either way, (cause... well... duh... if a unit has been moved, then it's moved herp a derp) but would still like some official text regarding the matter if that can be provided.

The nature of the phrase "counts as" inherently means that we're treating a thing as being some other thing, despite it not ACTUALLY being that second thing. Like "counts-as" models, where we use a model that's not the official model for a given unit to "count as" that unit. That's just what it means.

For example, a SM Command Squad "counts as" scoring one extra wound in close combat for purposes of calculating the result of an assault, despite having not actually inflicted another wound.

 Lord PoPo wrote:
I'm not sure that, just because a unit has been moved, that it counts as having moved in so far as game mechanics are concerned..

What leads you to believe that a model that has moved would not automatically count as having moved unless the rules specifically say otherwise...?

 Mannahnin wrote:
The only time they specify that a unit "counts as having moved", is if it actually HASN'T moved, but we're counting it as having done so for some reason.

Strange that they actually do state exactly that.

 insaniak wrote:

 Lord PoPo wrote:
I'm not sure that, just because a unit has been moved, that it counts as having moved in so far as game mechanics are concerned..

What leads you to believe that a model that has moved would not automatically count as having moved unless the rules specifically say otherwise...?

I would first like to say that I'm only not sure that a unit that has been moved counts as having moved. Not that i think that this is the case. If i were the judge of a tournament, I would probably rule that any unit that has been moved counts as having moved (with the exception of models knocked over and the like)

well because there are things like moving during the movement phase, in which case all rules, iirc, refer to that case "units that have moved in the movement phase" or something like that is the most often used statement iirc (I don't have my BRB on me at the moment so that could be mistaken) and then there's running, which also creates it's own specific set of rules that limit what a squad can do.

but with things like gate of infinity, there is some debate as to weather or not units using GOI actually count as deepstriking units, or if they merely arrive on the battlefield using the deepstrike rules. If they don't count as deepstriking units, then the rules that make the unit count as having moved, prevent it from assualting, and the rest technically, VERY TECHNICALLY don't apply to GoI units iirc. (again, something that I wouldn't do or allow, just something that I observed could be possible)

again, all of this is the very strictest of RAW, and I don't know if some of these things have been erratad.

basically, the question is this: Is there a general rule that states that models that have been moved count as having moved?