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I wouldn't say vendettas are over powered. Just very useful in the current meta where you play. I was about to type how that I don't use forge world either but I remembered I got these guys when I was getting a Christmas present for my Chaos crazy brother.


Really I hated hoping I got everything I ordered. Missing sprues, miss-casts, bent or broke etc etc having to send it back and wait again would take way longer than I would like. For instance these guys, none of them fit on their legs, none. The cables were all bent too close for it to fit and it was too thin and weak for the warm water bend back trick. Still looks good on these guys but I probably got lucky and don't like pushing my luck. If I could go to the store and look at what I was spending my cash on and see everything was accounted for I would do the sabre platforms and vultures.

Anyway I think we hit on some great tactics/units to try and I would like to ask other players besides Ailaros on here to try some of them as well and let us know what works well and with what. Like maybe the melta rough riders work ok but not well with sentinels.

The arguments in this thread are silly.
FW are acceptable for pick up games, just ask your opponent. If they utterly refuse than they are probably square and socially inept, even if not just find another opponent. Geez. Have fun people.

Better use of cover. More cover. More attention to placement of cover and terrain. Fortifications.

More heavy weapons. More HWTs. Better leadership to improve orders. Another CCS for more orders.. Veterans with special weapons, maybe harker with infiltrate. Creed or counts-as for outflank and increased order potential. Maybe a mix of infantry platoon and chenkov for waves.

Suicide stormies. Lots of krak grenades. Artillery. Scout sentinels mid field in cover with stealth. More vehicles.
There are plenty of options. You just need to find a zen, bro. Change up tactics, even. Learn well young grasshopper!

 portugus wrote:


Really I hated hoping I got everything I ordered. Missing sprues, miss-casts, bent or broke etc etc having to send it back and wait again would take way longer than I would like. For instance these guys, none of them fit on their legs, none. The cables were all bent too close for it to fit and it was too thin and weak for the warm water bend back trick. Still looks good on these guys but I probably got lucky and don't like pushing my luck. If I could go to the store and look at what I was spending my cash on and see everything was accounted for I would do the sabre platforms and vultures.
.

Sounds like you got unlucky, actually. I have thousands of dollars worth of resin, and I find that its usually plastic kits that I have the blaring problems with.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voxick wrote:
Just wanted to say I respect the no forgeworld stuff.

Vendettas = OP

Have a nice day

Welcome to dakka, where we prefer that you know what you're talking about before you talk about it.

-Captain

 ansacs wrote:
However the alternate path is kill the scoring and mission critical units and win with victory points. This requires a mix list of durable units and enough firepower to kill scoring units and the units that can wipe out your scorers.

This is is why reading the entire OP is important: he's already tried this approach. It failed. Utterly. Even against an army with two naked veteran squads, the absolute minimum troops you can possibly put into a legal IG army and normally a suicidally weak choice, he was unable to win the objective game. That's the most favorable possible situation for the "focus on the mission" approach, and it still didn't work. It's time to concede that it isn't a viable plan and move on.

-Saturate high AV can work as most fliers do not get enough turns shooting to finish all the tanks IG can bring and fliers are the only thing a demolisher can't handle.

I'm not sure where you get that idea from. If you exclude FW units as the OP wants to do, the useful flyers are the Vendetta, Stormraven, and Doom Scythe. All of them have powerful anti-tank weapons that can kill a Leman Russ.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CaseyColt wrote:
Better leadership to improve orders.

Waste of points. Instead of spending points on LD boosts, spend points on more guns.

Another CCS for more orders.

Orders are not efficient. The only reason to bring a second CCS is to give it 4x melta/plasma and kill stuff.

Creed or counts-as for outflank and increased order potential.

Way too expensive. Buy more guns.

Maybe a mix of infantry platoon and chenkov for waves.

Complete waste of points. Buy more guns.

Lots of krak grenades.

Will never get in range to do anything. Buy more guns.

Scout sentinels mid field in cover with stealth.

Breaks the "don't bring units that are weaker than what your opponent is bringing" rule, costs way too many points, and generally sucks.

 TheCaptain wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:


I'd even much rather take 400 points of medusas as 3 AV12 vehicles is going to be a lot harder to kill than what will amount to 9 guardsmen, and they either splatcannon paladins or they at LEAST keep up with damage against vehicles.

And deny FNP, ID obliterators and their melee version, nob bikers, regular bikers, and well, anything else without EW and t5 or less.

STR10 AP2 is tits.

oblits come in T4 4++ and T5 5++ varieties.

I would be surprised if you ever saw a melee version of a oblitorator in a real game. Comically bad rules.

are BEHHHHNBLAAAAADES in the question?

Baneblades are Apocalypse units.

I think it is possible to use a super heavy as your second detachment in games over 2k. However, it would be bad form to spring such a thing on an opponent and expect them to "have to" play you.

For general gaming, no you can't use things like baneblades.

 Trickstick wrote:
I think it is possible to use a super heavy as your second detachment in games over 2k. However, it would be bad form to spring such a thing on an opponent and expect them to "have to" play you.

It isn't. You and your opponent could agree to play a special game where they have two FOCs and you have one FOC with a superheavy tank, but that's no different than any other house rule or custom scenario. There's nothing in the actual rules of the game that allows it, in fact the rules even specifically state that superheavy tanks are not part of normal 40k.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:
I think it is possible to use a super heavy as your second detachment in games over 2k. However, it would be bad form to spring such a thing on an opponent and expect them to "have to" play you.

It isn't. You and your opponent could agree to play a special game where they have two FOCs and you have one FOC with a superheavy tank, but that's no different than any other house rule or custom scenario. There's nothing in the actual rules of the game that allows it, in fact the rules even specifically state that superheavy tanks are not part of normal 40k.

Oh yes, that was pretty much what I was trying to say. There are rules for it but then you get into the whole "standard 40k" argument spiral, which is best avoided unless you want several pages of pointlessness.

 TheCaptain wrote:

 portugus wrote:


Really I hated hoping I got everything I ordered. Missing sprues, miss-casts, bent or broke etc etc having to send it back and wait again would take way longer than I would like. For instance these guys, none of them fit on their legs, none. The cables were all bent too close for it to fit and it was too thin and weak for the warm water bend back trick. Still looks good on these guys but I probably got lucky and don't like pushing my luck. If I could go to the store and look at what I was spending my cash on and see everything was accounted for I would do the sabre platforms and vultures.
.

Sounds like you got unlucky, actually. I have thousands of dollars worth of resin, and I find that its usually plastic kits that I have the blaring problems with.

Thanks that actually makes me feel better about buying FW.

 portugus wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:

 portugus wrote:


Really I hated hoping I got everything I ordered. Missing sprues, miss-casts, bent or broke etc etc having to send it back and wait again would take way longer than I would like. For instance these guys, none of them fit on their legs, none. The cables were all bent too close for it to fit and it was too thin and weak for the warm water bend back trick. Still looks good on these guys but I probably got lucky and don't like pushing my luck. If I could go to the store and look at what I was spending my cash on and see everything was accounted for I would do the sabre platforms and vultures.
.

Sounds like you got unlucky, actually. I have thousands of dollars worth of resin, and I find that its usually plastic kits that I have the blaring problems with.

Thanks that actually makes me feel better about buying FW.

And any problem I've had with FW's casts, they've replaced, without hassle.

TheCaptain wrote:STR10 AP2 is tits.

BBs?

Lucre wrote:You don't find these big tough units just sorta waste their time killing guardsmen? I mean, they tend not to score and tanks don't contest.

The problem is one of damage output. If my opponent is bringing a pair of ultratesla barges, they can mow down enough guardsmen per turn to cause serious problems. I'd shoot at them first, but scythebarges are an even higher priority. That or I'm talking about punishers or something with torrent, etc.

I generally can take casualties pretty well, but 6th ed has wound up with me reaching my breaking point much earlier in the games. I'm starting to suspect that more firepower, not more durability is what's required here.

Tarval wrote:5x PS, 5x lascannon, 2x vox, commissar

Not really interested in blobs anymore. It's too easy to kill the commissars now. Running combined squads is now actually risky, and not necessarily better than keeping them MSU.

Griddlelol wrote: If there is a huge problem in the IG codex that can only be fixed with a Vendetta (as it currently seems, because no one has provided a good substitute except for FW) then I'd say the Vend is important in balancing the codex as a whole.

Which is why this thread in the first place. If the guard codex is so weak that you must have a particular single unit to stand a chance, then my gut reaction is to lay low with guard until they get a stronger codex.

TheCaptain wrote:Sounds like you got unlucky, actually. I have thousands of dollars worth of resin, and I find that its usually plastic kits that I have the blaring problems with.

You've had problems with plastic kits?

I didn't think that was possible.

 Ailaros wrote:

Tarval wrote:5x PS, 5x lascannon, 2x vox, commissar

Not really interested in blobs anymore. It's too easy to kill the commissars now. Running combined squads is now actually risky, and not necessarily better than keeping them MSU.

So would you suggest running 3 ten man squads with Melta/lascannon as opposed to one 30 man blob?

MSUs are great, it give more targets to your opponent. I go with squads and it works well. That big, obvious blob is now many more squads easily hidden by terrain and it does give more independent targets to shoot down, so scattering the opposing firepower.

 Ailaros wrote:

TheCaptain wrote:STR10 AP2 is tits.

BBs?

Nah, just the regular medusa tank.

BB's are hurt too much by being small blast, imo. Makes them too one-purpose. The only thing multi-purpose about guard is our tanks, and I think the Medusa fills this pretty darn well.

 TheCaptain wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

TheCaptain wrote:STR10 AP2 is tits.

BBs?

Nah, just the regular medusa tank.

BB's are hurt too much by being small blast, imo. Makes them too one-purpose. The only thing multi-purpose about guard is our tanks, and I think the Medusa fills this pretty darn well.

Wouldn't the increased range on the BB shells make it worth it, seeing as the Medusa is on a chimera chassis and is open toped?

 Happygrunt wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

TheCaptain wrote:STR10 AP2 is tits.

BBs?

Nah, just the regular medusa tank.

BB's are hurt too much by being small blast, imo. Makes them too one-purpose. The only thing multi-purpose about guard is our tanks, and I think the Medusa fills this pretty darn well.

Wouldn't the increased range on the BB shells make it worth it, seeing as the Medusa is on a chimera chassis and is open toped?

Small blast makes it so you can potentially be hitting one guy a shot. And you better believe that a good player will be spacing his stuff out if he sees a medusa across the table.

BB's are good for killing vehicles, but not much else.

Regular Medusa will do both. Tack it behind some cover/ruins and it will be fine.

Thought about sentinels as heavy weapon platforms? You can magnetize them so that you can equip them for whatever army you're facing.

Blob army? No sweat, take flamers and use "move through cover" 240 points of 6 heavy (armored) flamers (or Autocannons)

Mech Army? No sweat, outflank with just 300 points of anti armor and take out an entire column the first turn with 6 lascannons.

Air Army?

Why not take Hydras? 225 points and 12 Anti-aircraft shot's per turn?

I still don't get why no vendetta's though, they're in the codex.

 ENOZONE wrote:
I still don't get why no vendetta's though, they're in the codex.

Well, there are a few reasons. I know why I don't run mine so much, although I only have one vendetta:

1. They are expensive models.
2. They are harder to transport than most other units.
3. There is a quite a lot of dislike between Guard and Navy in the fluff. Not really a reason I suppose, but I have my Guard hating Navy and by BFG Navy hating Guard.

Mainly I just find them hard to transport though, they have a high size/point ratio.

 ENOZONE wrote:
Thought about sentinels as heavy weapon platforms? You can magnetize them so that you can equip them for whatever army you're facing.

Blob army? No sweat, take flamers and use "move through cover" 240 points of 6 heavy (armored) flamers (or Autocannons)

Mech Army? No sweat, outflank with just 300 points of anti armor and take out an entire column the first turn with 6 lascannons.

Air Army?

Why not take Hydras? 225 points and 12 Anti-aircraft shot's per turn?

"List tailor and you'll do fine!"

Are you serious?

 TheCaptain wrote:

 ENOZONE wrote:
Thought about sentinels as heavy weapon platforms? You can magnetize them so that you can equip them for whatever army you're facing.

Blob army? No sweat, take flamers and use "move through cover" 240 points of 6 heavy (armored) flamers (or Autocannons)

Mech Army? No sweat, outflank with just 300 points of anti armor and take out an entire column the first turn with 6 lascannons.

Air Army?

Why not take Hydras? 225 points and 12 Anti-aircraft shot's per turn?

"List tailor and you'll do fine!"

Are you serious?

In his defense, from what it looks like a lot of the opponents Ailaros plays tend to list tailor towards his lists seeing that he has his theme and sticks to it. Look at his most recent game. 4 punisher tanks? Really? That just screams list tailoring. Still, I guess it comes down to your own belief of whether or not two wrongs make a right.

I usually take 3 executioners ( 15 plasma cannon spam will kill marines and make blob/hoards think again)
3 hydras for the aa fun
and plenty of LC armed sentinals for armour sniping. ( I've yet to lose a game since playing with this) add infantry to taste.

Its not overly strong if you have to go and take an objective by force, it really is more a case of sit on what you have while using your long range guns to deny your opponent.

 WhiteWolf01 wrote:
In his defense, from what it looks like a lot of the opponents Ailaros plays tend to list tailor towards his lists seeing that he has his theme and sticks to it. Look at his most recent game. 4 punisher tanks? Really? That just screams list tailoring. Still, I guess it comes down to your own belief of whether or not two wrongs make a right.

I'll quote Ailaros from his battle report thread:

 Ailaros wrote:
Firstly, no, this list is not tailored. The guy doesn't play guard, he plays punishers. It's his schtick.

So just a coincidence really.

Guess I missed that part. It's still a terrible coincidence...

 jimbolina25 wrote:
I usually take 3 executioners ( 15 plasma cannon spam will kill marines and make blob/hoards think again)
3 hydras for the aa fun
and plenty of LC armed sentinals for armour sniping. ( I've yet to lose a game since playing with this) add infantry to taste.

Its not overly strong if you have to go and take an objective by force, it really is more a case of sit on what you have while using your long range guns to deny your opponent.

I love this list if it was not for the fact that, I blow up my own executioners far faster with sponsons than the enemy does .

Seems as though the OP is just really stubborn by getting tabled by armies that counter his. If he doesn't change his list to at least attempt to stand up against them, what's the point? I didn't say do it in tournaments, just in cases where the game is no longer fun to play (and you're not willing to shell out 700 dollars for vendettas and executioners.)

 ENOZONE wrote:
Seems as though the OP is just really stubborn by getting tabled by armies that counter his. If he doesn't change his list to at least attempt to stand up against them, what's the point? I didn't say do it in tournaments, just in cases where the game is no longer fun to play (and you're not willing to shell out 700 dollars for vendettas and executioners.)

Well yeah, Ailaros is stubborn; welcome to Dakka.

But there are still some options inside his criteria. Not great ones, but they're there.

 TheCaptain wrote:

 Happygrunt wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

TheCaptain wrote:STR10 AP2 is tits.

BBs?

Nah, just the regular medusa tank.

BB's are hurt too much by being small blast, imo. Makes them too one-purpose. The only thing multi-purpose about guard is our tanks, and I think the Medusa fills this pretty darn well.

Wouldn't the increased range on the BB shells make it worth it, seeing as the Medusa is on a chimera chassis and is open toped?

Small blast makes it so you can potentially be hitting one guy a shot. And you better believe that a good player will be spacing his stuff out if he sees a medusa across the table.

BB's are good for killing vehicles, but not much else.

Regular Medusa will do both. Tack it behind some cover/ruins and it will be fine.

I agree on leaving the BB at home.
But it would be fun to run 1 or 2 with BB if you knew you would be facing a Bastion!
Like a one off, not all the time.

 alarmingrick wrote:


I agree on leaving the BB at home.
But it would be fun to run 1 or 2 with BB if you knew you would be facing a Bastion!
Like a one off, not all the time.

I can agree.

I think the BB definitely has a place; which is in an artillery squadron of three in an Apoc game.

It will kill some structure; be super cool, and everyone will laugh over beers about how badly you overkilled that building.

But that's it for the BB. That's its day of glory.