dealing with tough units with guard

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**Gibblets**

I tried my best to come up with quirky and unusaul ways to solve your problem. But the short of it is the only unit that will do what you need in a cost effective (points) way are Vendettas.

Sure it can suck to more or less have to use a certain unit in the codex to remain competitive, but the same could be said for Veterans. Without them you lose a lot of effectiveness.

**tankboy145**

Ailaros wrote:

As for an aegis, I tried it and wasn't impressed. Fliers shoot over aegises, and a single interceptor+skyfire weapon isn't doing much to them. I am starting to get somewhat tempted by it again, but that's only because I've been playing with stupid small amounts of terrain recently (and at tournaments, which never have anywhere close to enough).

How do they shoot over it? if you put like 5 guys up right against the wall from one squad how does the vendetta shoot over as the infantry are pretty much covered and Fliers have a 45degree arc when firing left and right as well as up or down so if the fliers right over your troops they will not be able to hit your troops. and thats the same for chimeras just put troops around them. Leman russes probably wont get cover but you really have to look and verify what gets save the aegis is wonderful and will really help your troops and that quad using interceptor to drop a flier before it shoots is one less unit of your thats getting shot at and if your opponent isnt running fliers and a deathstar unit that quad gun will just add saves those units have to make.

Weight of fire is a very reliable way of killing a deathstar unit as well as some marines as I have found out.

If you have trouble with marines lists run LRBT, Yea i love them but seriously they work. s8 ap3 only allows plague marines a 5+FNP. The tank will also work wonders against horde armies as it should deal enough wounds to a horde to make it take a moral test and take out quite a bit of units to keep them at bay. If your advancing against your opponent then take demolishers even better than the LRBT just shorter range.

As for flier spam to be honest there really isnt an army out there yet that can really stop it. The vendetta spam is obviously a way to stop it but I dont find that as very competitive against anything other than a air cron list. But the quad gun is awesome and massed heavy weapons with Bring it Down will help you a little more.

Have your tanks focus on ground units and your infantry squads fire at fliers and if your against a death star army just blast the dakka out of it because that is how ive brought down death stars.

**schadenfreude**

Forge World chapter approved units are going more and more mainstream with more gt allowing them. One big reason it's not getting a lot of flak is pretty much everyone can ally with IG for some sabres which provide inexpensive effective air defense.

The other answer is to sell your soul to the dark gods. In return we can augment your ig with a unit of plague bearers, flamers, and screamers. Deamons and foot guard go together like peanut butter and jelly. Keep us in mind and try it out sometime, unlike the Inquisition we're open to everyone 24/7 even on the emperor's birthday.

**Castitas**

To be honest, saw 7 pages, didn't read them all, (forgive me if these have already been thrown out there) but thought to ad some quick guard options.

First, if you are dead set against the defense line and quad gun, a hydra can work well. With no intercept rule, it can be a pain if your not facing any flyers, but it's cheap (75 pts) is twin linked (so still may hit once or twice) and worse comes to worse, if it's got a hull heavy flamer and there are no enemy flyers, use it as an annoying mobile heavy flamer/moving cover.

The second Option (and personal favorite) is that guardsmen are made all the more amazing by grenades, the new rules for grenades, combat, and glancing, means that the humble crack grenade can make a blob reliably eat up a leman Russ in combat. Ive seen Al'rahem foot platoons spell doom to many a backfield heavy support unit. Also seen vets with demos mob land raiders. (if it's got a tail pipe, stick a grenade in it)

The third is the good ol' mantacore option for lots of high strength templates. (works well against the all flyer lists for a turn 1 massacre)

Oh, and don't leave home with out your Officer of the Fleet.

**Happygrunt**

schadenfreude wrote:
Forge World chapter approved units are going more and more mainstream with more gt allowing them. One big reason it's not getting a lot of flak is pretty much everyone can ally with IG for some sabres which provide inexpensive effective air defense.

The other answer is to sell your soul to the dark gods. In return we can augment your ig with a unit of plague bearers, flamers, and screamers. Deamons and foot guard go together like peanut butter and jelly. Keep us in mind and try it out sometime, unlike the Inquisition we're open to everyone 24/7 even on the emperor's birthday.

Which GT is allowing them? The only one I can think of is MAYBE TSHFT.

**tankboy145**

That is another good note! if you are having problems with fliers go with the Officer of the Fleet! He will delay your opponents reserves and if you have the quad you should be able to pick off a flier each turn. If I recall correctly I believe they are armor 11(the crons as im refering too). Theres been times where I ran 2 vendettas and my opponent didnt even have anything that delayed reserves and 1 of them came in on turn 3 and the other wasn until turn 4(was depressing).

And for each turn you delay your opponent that is another turn you have units that live from an air assault. Couldnt think of a better defence against fliers aside from vendetta so I believe this would be your best bet.

**bogalubov**

Happygrunt wrote:
schadenfreude wrote:
Forge World chapter approved units are going more and more mainstream with more gt allowing them. One big reason it's not getting a lot of flak is pretty much everyone can ally with IG for some sabres which provide inexpensive effective air defense.

The other answer is to sell your soul to the dark gods. In return we can augment your ig with a unit of plague bearers, flamers, and screamers. Deamons and foot guard go together like peanut butter and jelly. Keep us in mind and try it out sometime, unlike the Inquisition we're open to everyone 24/7 even on the emperor's birthday.

Which GT is allowing them? The only one I can think of is MAYBE TSHFT.

The Bay Area Open is allowing and that's one of the biggest (if not the biggest) tournament on the West Coast. There have been a few other recent tournaments (Comikaze) that have allowed them and most people that went agree that the world did not end by playing with forge world units. Most of the units are actually not that great rules wise. Others like Sabre platforms are pretty much available to everyone due to allies.

**White Ninja**

Ok guardsman Marbo is almost always great at killing stuff. Against any tank with an armor value of ten in the rear he has a fair chance of just killing it. Otherwise send him after some troops. A Defense line with the a quad gun is a 25 dollar add on that will do nothing but good for you. The manticore has a fair chance of doing damage to any tank and if they have a rear armor of ten a hit can just auto pin for you if you place the template right and it can shoot over buildings letting you set up a building to hide it behind in deployment. Us your foot sloggers and the wall to form a shield for it and with camo netting it can get a three up cover easy against most stuff. Taking a vet squad with harken and lots of melta with the demo doctrine can just walk onto the field and kill just about anything within twelve inches of the board edge then help take an objective for you. I have used all of these things in my guard for most games and have rarely been disappointed with them. But really one of your best answers to air is either a hydra a vendetta of a quad gun and the quad gun is the cheapest to buy.

Also why all the forge world hate. If your not playing tourneys why would you even care if someone else wanted to play with different types of TOY SOLDIERS then normal so long as they are not being a jerk about it. Are you desperate to win or just made you can't afford them. I do not own any forge world stuff but that is only because I am far to broke to afford the stuff I would like. I have played against some forge world stuff and if anything I though my official guard units were the far more broken stuff in play. But enough of me adding my five cents. Carry on.

**Peregrine**

Ailaros wrote:
Which is why this thread in the first place. If the guard codex is so weak that you must have a particular single unit to stand a chance, then my gut reaction is to lay low with guard until they get a stronger codex.

It has nothing to do with the IG codex being weak:

1) The core of the problem is the same one that applies to everyone: AA units are rare. GW hasn't bothered to update the codices with them, so if you rule out FW's attempt to give each army AA then you're left with very few options no matter what army you play. In fact, IG are lucky in that they have two options, the Hydra AND the Vendetta, even if in 6th the Hydra is just too weak to be a viable option.

2) Sometimes you just have only one or two units that fill a specific role. Do you feel that the IG codex is weak because the only dedicated transport option is the Chimera, so you have to have Chimeras to stand a chance as a mech player? Do you feel that the codex is weak because rough riders are your only fast countercharge unit? Just like those single options aren't a sign of a weak codex, it isn't a sign of a weak codex when there's only one unit that combines effective AA and anti-tank shooting, especially given problem #1.

3) It's your personal self-imposed limits that create the "Vendetta or nothing" problem in the first place. GW has given you other options (Sabre guns are an obvious "let's give the foot guard players a huge gift and make them work in 6th" unit), but when you start rejecting options you shouldn't be surprised when you come to a point where you've rejected all but the last remaining option. And then when you reject it too you shouldn't be surprised when you don't have any options left.

So, reject Vendettas and FW and declare you'd rather quit playing IG than use either, but you aren't going to have any better luck with another army. You're going to find yourself with the exact same problem, you'll have a mandatory unit that you have to take.

You've had problems with plastic kits?

I didn't think that was possible.

Clearly you've never played Tau.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Castitas wrote:
First, if you are dead set against the defense line and quad gun, a hydra can work well. With no intercept rule, it can be a pain if your not facing any flyers, but it's cheap (75 pts) is twin linked (so still may hit once or twice) and worse comes to worse, if it's got a hull heavy flamer and there are no enemy flyers, use it as an annoying mobile heavy flamer/moving cover.

Hydras are garbage in 6th. They're a single-purpose unit that isn't even very good at its single purpose. STR 7 on an AV 12/10/10 platform with no interceptor means that your Hydra is probably dead before it can shoot, and even when it gets to shoot it isn't all that effective against AV 12 flyers (the ones you're most scared of). And then if there aren't any flyers the lack of interceptor means that you can't shoot effectively at ground targets, so you just wasted 225 points. Wasting 225 points is now how you win against maximum-firepower lists.

The second Option (and personal favorite) is that guardsmen are made all the more amazing by grenades, the new rules for grenades, combat, and glancing, means that the humble crack grenade can make a blob reliably eat up a leman Russ in combat. Ive seen Al'rahem foot platoons spell doom to many a backfield heavy support unit. Also seen vets with demos mob land raiders. (if it's got a tail pipe, stick a grenade in it)

If you're depending on grenades to do anything you're going to lose. It's extremely difficult to get guardsmen into charge range of a unit with full-table-range weapons, so consider grenades a bonus that you might rarely use if they're free, but I'd never buy them.

**thedarksaint**

I think the only thing that hasn't actually be suggested so far is Ratlings.

Then again, I suppose there is a reason for that.

**Inquisitor Jex**

thedarksaint wrote:
I think the only thing that hasn't actually be suggested so far is Ratlings.

Then again, I suppose there is a reason for that.

Yeah, most people seems to not like them. I find them useful for what I face.

**AlmightyWalrus**

thedarksaint wrote:
I think the only thing that hasn't actually be suggested so far is Ratlings.

Then again, I suppose there is a reason for that.

Nope, they were suggested around page 4.

**CaseyColt**

Peregrine wrote:
ansacs wrote:
However the alternate path is kill the scoring and mission critical units and win with victory points. This requires a mix list of durable units and enough firepower to kill scoring units and the units that can wipe out your scorers.

This is is why reading the entire OP is important: he's already tried this approach. It failed. Utterly. Even against an army with two naked veteran squads, the absolute minimum troops you can possibly put into a legal IG army and normally a suicidally weak choice, he was unable to win the objective game. That's the most favorable possible situation for the "focus on the mission" approach, and it still didn't work. It's time to concede that it isn't a viable plan and move on.

-Saturate high AV can work as most fliers do not get enough turns shooting to finish all the tanks IG can bring and fliers are the only thing a demolisher can't handle.

I'm not sure where you get that idea from. If you exclude FW units as the OP wants to do, the useful flyers are the Vendetta, Stormraven, and Doom Scythe. All of them have powerful anti-tank weapons that can kill a Leman Russ.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

CaseyColt wrote:
Better leadership to improve orders.

More guns is what I was eluding to, without actually saying more guns - just wanted to give some characterful (if not optimized, cus OP is nit picky) options.
So yes, more guns. Quite.

Waste of points. Instead of spending points on LD boosts, spend points on more guns.

Another CCS for more orders.

Orders are not efficient. The only reason to bring a second CCS is to give it 4x melta/plasma and kill stuff.

Creed or counts-as for outflank and increased order potential.

Way too expensive. Buy more guns.

Maybe a mix of infantry platoon and chenkov for waves.

Complete waste of points. Buy more guns.

Lots of krak grenades.

Will never get in range to do anything. Buy more guns.

Scout sentinels mid field in cover with stealth.

Breaks the "don't bring units that are weaker than what your opponent is bringing" rule, costs way too many points, and generally sucks.

**Exergy**

Trickstick wrote:
ENOZONE wrote:
I still don't get why no vendetta's though, they're in the codex.

Well, there are a few reasons. I know why I don't run mine so much, although I only have one vendetta:

1. They are expensive models.
2. They are harder to transport than most other units.
3. There is a quite a lot of dislike between Guard and Navy in the fluff. Not really a reason I suppose, but I have my Guard hating Navy and by BFG Navy hating Guard.

Mainly I just find them hard to transport though, they have a high size/point ratio.

Vendettas are NAVY?

I have converted 2 vendettas and am working on making a 3rd. They cost substantially less if you use bits from other flyers instead of the hulking Vendetta hull. Also they are smaller.

**TheCaptain**

Exergy wrote:
Trickstick wrote:
ENOZONE wrote:
I still don't get why no vendetta's though, they're in the codex.

Well, there are a few reasons. I know why I don't run mine so much, although I only have one vendetta:

1. They are expensive models.
2. They are harder to transport than most other units.
3. There is a quite a lot of dislike between Guard and Navy in the fluff. Not really a reason I suppose, but I have my Guard hating Navy and by BFG Navy hating Guard.

Mainly I just find them hard to transport though, they have a high size/point ratio.

Vendettas are NAVY?

I have converted 2 vendettas and am working on making a 3rd. They cost substantially less if you use bits from other flyers instead of the hulking Vendetta hull. Also they are smaller.

Yup. Anything from the Arvus Lighter to the Retribution Class Battleship is part of the Navy. Chances are, if it flies, is Imperial, and isn't Astartes, it's Navy.

Unless you're Elysians; they have their own aircraft.

**Exergy**

Peregrine wrote:

You've had problems with plastic kits?
I didn't think that was possible.

Clearly you've never played Tau.

Or DE. So many long thin bits that break as you take them off the sprue. I got lucky once and got one that was broken on the sprue replaced but most of the time you are stuck with weapons handles that attach to nothing. There then isnt enough surface area to fix them.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

TheCaptain wrote:
Exergy wrote:

Vendettas are NAVY?

Yup. Anything from the Arvus Lighter to the Retribution Class Battleship is part of the Navy. Chances are, if it flies, is Imperial, and isn't Astartes, it's Navy.
Unless you're Elysians; they have their own aircraft.

shows what I know, I guess coming from the US china perspective the army and navy both have aircraft in addition to the air force.

**TheCaptain**

Exergy wrote:

TheCaptain wrote:
Exergy wrote:

Vendettas are NAVY?

Yup. Anything from the Arvus Lighter to the Retribution Class Battleship is part of the Navy. Chances are, if it flies, is Imperial, and isn't Astartes, it's Navy.
Unless you're Elysians; they have their own aircraft.

shows what I know, I guess coming from the US china perspective the army and navy both have aircraft in addition to the air force.

I mean, you're not crazy for thinking it. That's how it is pretty much everywhere, and how it was in the Imperium before. But then Horus Heresy, blah blah safety by separation of powers, blah blah chaos.

Basically they got split up so if a guard regiment got corrupted by chaos, they wouldn't have ships to invade with, and vice versa.

**Trickstick**

TheCaptain wrote:
Yup. Anything from the Arvus Lighter to the Retribution Class Battleship is part of the Navy. Chances are, if it flies, is Imperial, and isn't Astartes, it's Navy.

Unless you're Elysians; they have their own aircraft.

I believe that the Elysian fliers are on a "permanent secondment" sort of thing. They are for all intents and purposes Guard, but technically still Navy.

**Exergy**

TheCaptain wrote:
Exergy wrote:

TheCaptain wrote:
Exergy wrote:

Vendettas are NAVY?

Yup. Anything from the Arvus Lighter to the Retribution Class Battleship is part of the Navy. Chances are, if it flies, is Imperial, and isn't Astartes, it's Navy.
Unless you're Elysians; they have their own aircraft.

shows what I know, I guess coming from the US china perspective the army and navy both have aircraft in addition to the air force.

I mean, you're not crazy for thinking it. That's how it is pretty much everywhere, and how it was in the Imperium before. But then Horus Heresy, blah blah safety by separation of powers, blah blah chaos.

Basically they got split up so if a guard regiment got corrupted by chaos, they wouldn't have ships to invade with, and vice versa.

and yet, Vendettas are not intersteller craft, so they couldnt invade anyway.

I would imagine that much of the imperial armies would be handicapt like the british did to the indian army in the 18th and 19th centuries. They were allowed infantry and cavalry, but no artillery, thus they would lose against any well supplied colonial force, but could wreck face against anyone not from europe. They could also be combine with colonial artillery units to make an effective fighting force.

**TheCaptain**

Trickstick wrote:
TheCaptain wrote:
Yup. Anything from the Arvus Lighter to the Retribution Class Battleship is part of the Navy. Chances are, if it flies, is Imperial, and isn't Astartes, it's Navy.

Unless you're Elysians; they have their own aircraft.

I believe that the Elysian fliers are on a "permanent secondment" sort of thing. They are for all intents and purposes Guard, but technically still Navy.

Quite right.

Exergy wrote:
TheCaptain wrote:

I mean, you're not crazy for thinking it. That's how it is pretty much everywhere, and how it was in the Imperium before. But then Horus Heresy, blah blah safety by separation of powers, blah blah chaos.

Basically they got split up so if a guard regiment got corrupted by chaos, they wouldn't have ships to invade with, and vice versa.

and yet, Vendettas are not intersteller craft, so they couldnt invade anyway.

I suppose it is the command structure wanting to keep any supposed corrupt guard regiments as immobile as possible. Vendettas/Valks and the like can still take squads from surface to orbit, and even that could prove quite troublesome.

**Inquisitor Jex**

Yeah the 'basic' model lacks the warp engines to go to another system 'rapidly' nor do they have living quarters (as the Fury Interceptor) and facilities for deep void inter-system flight.

So it's pretty much ferrying troops from the Cruiser down to the surface.

**Tarval**

Well I finally got around to reading up on all the post. I did notice that a few of you bashed my input. So where is your so called list that you bring and win game after game after game. On top of that bashing something with out giving some real data and or input? Do you really use sents,, do you have an understanding of out flanking, do you understand rear armour, do you understand find the weak point in a persons army, do you understand how to control the flow of set up, do you think out side of the box?

I run three sents with mutli lasers because they are cost effective in a 1500 point. As well they work with the astropath... so unless you have something to back up your input with, this unit sucks,,, ets then dont add your input...

Sents cheap and effective for what it can do..
36" range and its only 105 points for 9 shoots. Rear armour on almost all vehicles is 10, you will always find some task for your unit if you set your army up that way. The question that most of you did not answer is that when you select a unit, do you give it a task? My sents are set up for back field problems...

Auto cannon,, 48" 6 shoot,, work just as well
Lascannon, 48" 3 shoots,,

Find your roll and use it... We have a player in the area that used his Eldar with mass volume of str 6 shoots. His army was only built with the idea of putting out as many str 6 shoots a turn that he could... Task your units and your army will win

Most of the people on the thread pointed out the LRBT,, hull lascannon is to assist with punching threw armour at range. I use to think this set up with junk back back back in the day when I played against the IG army. I have found over the years that the lascannon is the best combine weapon for the tank.

It meets your range for the most part and adds the str of the tank

AP2, str 9
ap3, str8

You have the ability to really make a dent in a lot of units with this set up. Not only will you be cracking armour at range, but you can add a pie plate to deal with horde.

Now we are onto harker and the unit set up I gave. Do you guys have any input then this unit sucks. Have you tried the unit?, I mean have you really thought about what this unit is tasked to do... Oh bring a flamer over and burn the unit up. Ok that work well but oh ya,,,, im loaded up in a chimera and rolling in with a heavy flamer as well. So bring your flamer and will see who last the longest....

This unit is set with a task, back field objectives,, tank kiling,, holding there ground... You put a unit like this in somebodies back field,, its going to force them to re direct to deal with it... Not everybody is going to be spaming a zillion units of the same type. As well most tournies have a strong comp vs crap spam.. even in pick up games this guy will rock out.. Task him and use it..

Bloob squad,,
5x lascannon, 2x vox, commissar...

Once again your putting a 48" gun into the unit. If you place a 24/12 gun in the unit your going to set up closer to the enemy. Thus your going to be getting into hth with this unit. Do you really want your AT/AM unit in hth in a turn or two? This unit set up is for max range to hand out punishment. Commissar sits in the back way back so that he is not able to be targeted. Use a bit of thought when setting this guy up so that he can not be targeted.. Also you dont always have to bloob up but its a nice option to have.. I personally bloob up for protection and when you bring it down,, its going to be brought down..

Orders,,, When you fail your ld check right when you need to,, then will talk again. Then again your basing your input off your list build which does not take advantage of order. So check your input at the door because you dont have any ground to stand on.....

Did I miss anything, well off to take care of the kids.. check back tomorrow and see if anybody added input with something to back it up...

**Trickstick**

Tarval wrote:
Most of the people on the thread pointed out the LRBT,, hull lascannon is to assist with punching threw armour at range. I use to think this set up with junk back back back in the day when I played against the IG army. I have found over the years that the lascannon is the best combine weapon for the tank.

It meets your range for the most part and adds the str of the tank

AP2, str 9
ap3, str8

You have the ability to really make a dent in a lot of units with this set up. Not only will you be cracking armour at range, but you can add a pie plate to deal with horde.

I used to love the lascannon on my demolishers and LRBTs too, until they changed the rules. Now an ordnance russ can only snap fire with other guns if it uses its turret. I just can't justify a lascannon upgrade that only hits on 6s. I just go for the cheap flamer option now. Sure, you can't snap fire it like the lascannon or bolter, but it is a weapon that can do a lot of damage in a single turn. If I lose the turret I still have a mini flame tank, and there are some cases it is better to fire the flamer over the turret, like Guard in cover.

It is a real shame that they made that rule change, the lascannon used to make those tanks pretty good at killing medium armour.

**TheCaptain**

Tarval wrote:
Well I finally got around to reading up on all the post. I did notice that a few of you bashed my input. So where is your so called list that you bring and win game after game after game. On top of that bashing something with out giving some real data and or input? Do you really use sents,, do you have an understanding of out flanking, do you understand rear armour, do you understand find the weak point in a persons army, do you understand how to control the flow of set up, do you think out side of the box?

Yes. We all do.

I run three sents with mutli lasers because they are cost effective in a 1500 point. As well they work with the astropath... so unless you have something to back up your input with, this unit sucks,,, ets then dont add your input...

Sents cheap and effective for what it can do..
36" range and its only 105 points for 9 shoots. Rear armour on almost all vehicles is 10, you will always find some task for your unit if you set your army up that way. The question that most of you did not answer is that when you select a unit, do you give it a task? My sents are set up for back field problems...

A vendetta is much more survivable, and cost effective. Not to mention, you can most certainly not ensure rear armor with the Sentinel, and you fail to address the fact that if you aren't hitting rear armor, you aren't doing anything useful.

Auto cannon,, 48" 6 shoot,, work just as well
Lascannon, 48" 3 shoots,,

Find your roll and use it... We have a player in the area that used his Eldar with mass volume of str 6 shoots. His army was only built with the idea of putting out as many str 6 shoots a turn that he could... Task your units and your army will win

"Task your units and your army will win" if only it were that easy. Also, it's "shots".

Most of the people on the thread pointed out the LRBT,, hull lascannon is to assist with punching threw armour at range. I use to think this set up with junk back back back in the day when I played against the IG army. I have found over the years that the lascannon is the best combine weapon for the tank.

It meets your range for the most part and adds the str of the tank

AP2, str 9
ap3, str8

You have the ability to really make a dent in a lot of units with this set up. Not only will you be cracking armour at range, but you can add a pie plate to deal with horde.

The lascannon is not useful. The LRBT will almost always be in range, and should not be splitting its time between shooting a single lascannon at armor, and (doing its actual job) by shooting a pie plate. Just keep it to shooting a pie plate. You save 15 points.

Now we are onto harker and the unit set up I gave. Do you guys have any input then this unit sucks. Have you tried the unit?, I mean have you really thought about what this unit is tasked to do... Oh bring a flamer over and burn the unit up. Ok that work well but oh ya,,,, im loaded up in a chimera and rolling in with a heavy flamer as well. So bring your flamer and will see who last the longest....

This unit is set with a task, back field objectives,, tank kiling,, holding there ground... You put a unit like this in somebodies back field,, its going to force them to re direct to deal with it... Not everybody is going to be spaming a zillion units of the same type. As well most tournies have a strong comp vs crap spam.. even in pick up games this guy will rock out.. Task him and use it..

You're being ridiculously defensive. Calm down. The chimera is a waste of points, and the heavy flamer is too. If the chimera explodes, you'll be taking casualties on an already overcosted unit. Harker is for infiltrating a vet squad in. Infiltrate the vet squad in. "This unit is set with a task...tank killing." Why. Why is it there for tank killing. You have a heavy flamer on it. You keep saying to task your units, but then give advice on the contrary.

Bloob squad,,
5x lascannon, 2x vox, commissar...

Once again your putting a 48" gun into the unit. If you place a 24/12 gun in the unit your going to set up closer to the enemy. Thus your going to be getting into hth with this unit. Do you really want your AT/AM unit in hth in a turn or two? This unit set up is for max range to hand out punishment. Commissar sits in the back way back so that he is not able to be targeted. Use a bit of thought when setting this guy up so that he can not be targeted.. Also you dont always have to bloob up but its a nice option to have.. I personally bloob up for protection and when you bring it down,, its going to be brought down..

Orders,,, When you fail your ld check right when you need to,, then will talk again. Then again your basing your input off your list build which does not take advantage of order. So check your input at the door because you dont have any ground to stand on.....

Again, the aggressive defensiveness looks ridiculous, and prohibits you from being taken seriously. It's called "blob", also, and blobs don't need two vox casters. Not to mention, every guard commander understands accounting for orders when building a list. So check that "at the door".

Did I miss anything, well off to take care of the kids.. check back tomorrow and see if anybody added input with something to back it up...

You've taken user criticism way too seriously.

As a result, your lashing out in return kindof looks ridiculous.

So does the excessive use of ellipses, especially when they are commas.

Giving input is fine, but don't get upset when people disagree. This is the internet. That happens almost 100% of the time.

Also, you assume we, some of the best guard commanders around, aren't accounting for things like orders, and haven't tried most options. I can guarantee most of us with a post count over 100 have tried just about every option in the guard dex at least once. If we say something about a unit, positive or negative, it's either because we know so based on solid math and statistics, or experience.

Actually, I did a bit of browsing, and noticed this little gem.

Tarval wrote:
Have not played a game in 6th ed and sold my ig off about 5 months before it came out. The main thing that I know of is that codex truimps rule book so yes the behemoth rule would take place.

So really, you are questioning an entire thread's worth of Users' experience with units that most of us, yes, have used, many of us in 6th edition. The vast majority of us have a solid grasp on 6th edition mechanics, and thus know what would work in it even if we haven't used the unit, in fact.

But you assume you know better, despite not having played a game of 6th with IG, nor fully grasping the effect of the new rules on Guard.

Please; recognize that we here at Dakka try very hard to make the best experience and performance of our models/armies, and outdated advice based on outdated experience is incredibly counterproductive for all of us.

**Peregrine**

Tarval wrote:
Have not played a game in 6th ed and sold my ig off about 5 months before it came out. The main thing that I know of is that codex truimps rule book so yes the behemoth rule would take place.

Just to be nice and explain why we're laughing at you instead of taking your comments seriously: GW has issued errata that removes Lumbering Behemoth entirely and replaces it with the Heavy USR. There is no case of "codex trumps rulebook" because the codex rule does not exist.

Well, that and we're laughing at you for your ridiculous whining.

Now we are onto harker and the unit set up I gave. Do you guys have any input then this unit sucks. Have you tried the unit?, I mean have you really thought about what this unit is tasked to do... Oh bring a flamer over and burn the unit up. Ok that work well but oh ya,,,, im loaded up in a chimera and rolling in with a heavy flamer as well. So bring your flamer and will see who last the longest....

This unit is set with a task, back field objectives,, tank kiling,, holding there ground... You put a unit like this in somebodies back field,, its going to force them to re direct to deal with it... Not everybody is going to be spaming a zillion units of the same type.

Did you even read the OP? Objective holding is not his problem, killing stuff is. Taking a unit that hides in the back with a 2+ save might be useful against some armies, but does not in any way help the OP. It's just throwing away points for nothing.

As well most tournies have a strong comp vs crap spam..

Actually most tournaments have thankfully stopped using comp at all.

**Gibblets**

After reading the imperial armour supplement there is an ammunition option for the Manticore that fires AA rockets at Str9 AP2 Ordnance. I know FW, hate, hate, hate.

**Che-Vito**

< Taken by the void dragon. >

**Hesperus**

So it's been like 3 pages since this came up, but I want to second the proposal that you go the Chimera route. You don't necessarily have to rush straight at the enemy, either. Here are the major advantages I see:

1. Durability. You said that your army's reaching its "breaking point" much faster these days. I imagine it will fare much better when that annihilation barge has to chew through AV12 before it can start disintegrating your troops. And it's only 25 points more than carapace armor on vets

2. Firepower. You get a multilaser and a heavy flamer. Multilasers can help against MCs, AV 11-or-worse fliers and other light vehicles. Heavy flamers can help with the deep strikers and other close-in threats. It's firepower comparable to what you get from a PIS and costs about the same.

3. Increased range on special weapons. It must be pretty frustrating to have annihilation barges light you up from 19-23" away and know your meltas are useless. Not anymore!

4. Target saturation. Chimeras make your other vehicles more survivable, both directly, by providing cover, and indirectly, by giving your opponent lots of targets that require the attention of his limited number of heavy weapons.

And the major costs:

1. Fewer bodies. Obviously, if you're buying tanks, you're not buying dudes.This is significantly offset by the troops' increased durability, though.

2. Maneuverability. Tons of vehicles tend to get in each others' way. You should get better at avoiding that with practice, though.

3. Intangibles. Other players might react negatively: "Oh great, another chimera spam list!" "Ailaros...the foot guard guy? What's with all the tanks?" More importantly, you seem to really like the idea of foot guard, so you might not be satisfied with armored guard.

I also have to point out that a chimera for a vet squad is a much better buy than a chimera for a PIS. They cost the same, but vets have higher offensive capability. Since you can't blob up and still get the defensive advantage of the chimera, PIS's lose their real advantage over vet squads.

You said you don't have enough chimera chassis to try this out, but I know you play against at least a couple other Guard players. Any chance they'd let you borrow some tanks?

**DevianID**

As one of the people pushing for chimeras and vet squads, I agree with what Hesperus said. Vets are killer units while pis are defensive units. Vets gain speed and defense with a chimera, plus the chimera shoots hard targets better than pis Las guns.

**Trickstick**

Maybe you could try a hybrid list. Give Al'rahem a few chimera. You would still have a foot list, just that stupid Rahamel (I think that was your name for him) is always turning up late and stealing the glory.