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Now, I'm not a Tau player. I dabbled once upon a time, but this is something I occasionally wonder about.

Why are Drones such bad shots? A computer can make ballistics calculations in milliseconds. It can be equipped with sensors that give it perfect information about wind vectors. It suffers no interpretation slowdown when analysing information from non-visible light spectrums (like infra-red).

Why on earth, considering that a trained human can hit BS4 and a super-elite (but still unaugmented) human can hit BS5... is a Tau Drone only BS2?

Especially a Drone in a linked network with ten other drones, which theoretically boosts their processing power exponentially. So, what I suggest is thus;

Drones are BS3. For every 3 drones in a unit, all drones BS increases by 1.

This makes Drone Controller drones in infantry squads only a little better, grants a big boost to Sniper drones, and makes Drone Squadrons actually worth taking (because they can hit BS6 as a squad of 10).

I think the whole Tau army could be boosted to a basic BS4 without it being overpowered. For a 'shooty' army with sod all CC ability, BS3 is pretty low.

Its an interesting idea about the drones. Though BS6 might be a little high.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Now, I'm not a Tau player. I dabbled once upon a time, but this is something I occasionally wonder about.

Why are Drones such bad shots? A computer can make ballistics calculations in milliseconds. It can be equipped with sensors that give it perfect information about wind vectors. It suffers no interpretation slowdown when analysing information from non-visible light spectrums (like infra-red).

Why on earth, considering that a trained human can hit BS4 and a super-elite (but still unaugmented) human can hit BS5... is a Tau Drone only BS2?

Especially a Drone in a linked network with ten other drones, which theoretically boosts their processing power exponentially. So, what I suggest is thus;

Drones are BS3. For every 3 drones in a unit, all drones BS increases by 1.

This makes Drone Controller drones in infantry squads only a little better, grants a big boost to Sniper drones, and makes Drone Squadrons actually worth taking (because they can hit BS6 as a squad of 10).

I'm a Tau player and didn't realize that Gun Drones were BS 2, i've been running them as BS 3 by accident for about to 2 months now!

As a Tau player myself i have to disagree with this. Gun drones have twin linked carbines for a reason, to counter their low BS. If you must insist on a BS increase, invest in some markerlights. Ill admit gun drones being BS3 at a push if anything, but drones aren't meant to be anything special. Tau do not need an increase in BS across the army, to prove a point, if you do the maths, BS4 firewarriors would be OP.

Everybody says that BS4 firewarriors would be OP. Why? They have no special weapons. People can boost them up to BS5 easily but that rarely does any good since their weapon still allows most units an armor save.

I'm sorry, but if BS4 firewarriors are your idea of OP then I guess you have never played against space marines or IG vets.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Everybody says that BS4 firewarriors would be OP. Why? They have no special weapons. People can boost them up to BS5 easily but that rarely does any good since their weapon still allows most units an armor save.

BS4 Fire Warriors would be Op because according to their fluff (and representation in other 40k materials) you should thank god that they aren't BS2. If an average FW is BS4 then I demand BS6 to my IG vets !

Well your guess would be wrong as I've played against both, so you shouldn't be quick to judge.

And the reason I personally feel its OP. Their ranged weaponry is generally stronger and have a long range, especially for a basic troop. And in my experience BS3 does enough damage. However that's my opinion on it.

Ok... Why? The Tau aren't listed down as having bad eyesight, just poor depth perception, which is described as them having bad time in close combat. Which is taken into account with their stats.

Tau have equipment and training is designed solely for long range fighting. You're telling me that Tau getting the same training and better equipment than a veteran equates to a veteran having far superior shooting abilities?

And the few mentions of Tau eyesight are irrelevant to table top performance. If fluff is your justification then Nids and Necrons have some words for you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And Tau's real firepower comes from elite and heavy suits which is a travesty that state of the art Tau equipment, Tau's extensive training, and years of battlefield experience equates to a basic guardsman or gaunts shooting ability.

Tau hardly have any training >.> they are literally taught how to fire a gun and then put on the battlefield (more or less). And the equipment they get to help them shoot, markerlights and targeting arrays funnily enough. Honestly feels this could end up like arguing with a mule.......
However this is all diverting from the discussion topic.

Hahahaha! Oh wait, you're serious.

Guard are given a gun and put on the front lines.

Tau (even though there is little fluff for them) get extensive training because they are breed and raised for combat. The entire subspecies is breed solely to fire guns. Every aspect of their life for the most part is dedicated to them being soldiers for the empire.

Guard on the other hand are bakers, farmers, and everyday humans grabbed and forced to the front line.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And it's not just the marker lights and Targetting arrays. I'm talking about built in suit systems and the helmets and Targeting scopes on the rifles.

Having played Tau as well I would argue that at 12 points a pop bs 4 would not be that absurd. Necessary no but definitely not OP. Suits should be BS 4 base for sure. I don't care that tau don't have depth perception. When you have a computer monitor showing you the battle field that really shouldn't matter. Drones could be boosted to BS 3 with the twin-linked carbines without breaking them as well but not bs 6. Its a matter of balance over fluff there as what the OP said about computers being good shots with all that techno babble is true.

Kl story bro. Keep it to yourself (savageconvoy)
Point of this was the BS idea of both drones and entire army were, in my opinion, not good. And I'm more than happy to accept anyone else's, including yours.

I have no idea what you just said. But you're posting in a discussion thread so "keep it to yourself" is a real insult to me. If you don't want to read people's posts then maybe you shouldn't be on the forums.

And then you decided to continue to state your opinion, when you don't seem to respect any one else's.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
If fluff is your justification then Nids and Necrons have some words for you.

Yep, they do.

I play Necrons and Tau. Necron Warriors are described as being essentially Zombies with weapons, yet they have a statline to rival Space Marines, exeption to I and Sv, but they do get up again. Which should be on a 2+ if you are going for fluff.

Tau should deffinately be BS4 base, especially the Battlesuits, as they are described as being the most technologically advanced race in the galaxy.

But even on TT they wouldnt be broken. The Markerlights boost the often enough and they dont suddenly become OP.

And Necrons have a weapon with a special rule that strips Hullpoints on their base weapon too. Yet Necron warrior spam would be far from OP.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Ok... Why? The Tau aren't listed down as having bad eyesight, just poor depth perception, which is described as them having bad time in close combat. Which is taken into account with their stats.

From my 40k RPG experiences, I can tell you that Tau Fire Warriors suck in firefights. Like, big time. Once they lose their good guns and good armour, they are roughly equal/worse than a Conscript. I guess BS4 is reserved for guys who are really hard-core with their shooting abilities and not random dudes with awesome shooty sticks.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
You're telling me that Tau getting the same training and better equipment than a veteran equates to a veteran having far superior shooting abilities?

Sarcasm !


And WTF is this about the Tau being the technologically most advanced race? Most progressive, maybe, but most advanced? Come on, the competition is a little bit "overwhelming" with guys like the Necrons, Tyranids, Eldar or the IoM.

I'd give you Necrons based on how old their society is. Eldar...set aside the psychic based technology, I think Tau as just as advanced as eldar are. And evolution is not technology, Nids have no place in that argument.

Biotech is a type of technology. Nids specifically 'evolve' Biotech as needed - there'fore it's development in the traditional sense.

Anyway.
Imperial Guard may start as conscripts, they go through basic training with a PDF, then again with the Guard, they'll spend a lot of the transport time training, and your average Guardsman is probably older than most Tau.
Tau Fire Caste get trained for a few years, then each 4 years, if they've survived, they take a Trial of Fire, and either pass that and get promoted, or die failing the test.

I honestly think Shas'la should remain BS3, that's fine.
However, as the Tau improve, gain bionics and access to better tech, etc, I think it should increase in scale. (with their WS being half their BS, to represent time spent in the field, and natural improvement in that field, which matches up to the current levels too)
I.E:
Shas'la = WS2, BS3
Shas'ui = WS2, BS4
Shas'vre = WS3, BS5
Shas'el = WS3, BS6
Shas'o = WS4, BS7

Farsight would probably be along the lines of be WS7, BS4 (reversed 'o stats) or WS5, BS6 (modified 'O of +1/-1), with Shadowsun retaining the standard 'o stats of WS4/BS7

Drones Should probably be BS3 base, and I think that'd cover it.
(I assume a Sniper Drone spotter would likely be a 'ui making it BS4(5), and the Drones would then be BS 3(4).)

To the OP, I don't think the BS of gun drones is the issue with them. With the twinlinking, they are already more accurate than a FW. What I think they need are interresting options. Like the following things:
- Equip a SMS, Railrifles, Plasma, flamers, etc.
- Equip a Flechette discharger
- Medkit - grant FNP to FWs
- Possibly Bubble Shield with a 6+ inv save to FWs in 6 inches or same squad

Then allow anything that can take drones to take these options. You would make drones a staple in FW squads while maintaining the "standard outfit" fluff. I can see range support FW squads with SMS and Railrifle drones accompanied by like holders with FNP/6++ and a Flechette discharger.

Actually I made a Homebrew SC gun drone. It was a normal gun drone stat wise, but didn't take a FOC, counted as scoring, was fearless and could purchase 0-8 gun drones, 0-2 shield drones, 0-2 marker drones, 0-2 sniper drones, and 0-2 heavy gun drones. Costing 10, 15, 15, 20, and 20 respectively.

The character gun drone was 40 points. And fluff wise I explained it as a mysterious phenomenon where a gun drone started activating nearby drones and forming defensive positions while Tau forces were falling back. I never got to run it before 6th hit, but think I may write it up again.

In regards to drone BS, all the Drones that are BS 2 are also using Twin-Linked weapons. With the re-roll they hit approximately 5/9 shots, which is slightly better than BS 3. The drones that don't fire Twin Linked wellness all have an upgrade to BS 3 anyway. So as it is, all the drones that can shoot are functionally BS 3 or better.

For BS and the Tau themselves, I'd keep it as is, possibly giving all the Battlesuits a built in targeting array. The big thing for improving Tau shooting would be to make Markerlights more useful by some combination of 1) making them all Networked. 2) making their effects apply to the whole army instead of one unit at a time. 3) making them more affordable in the army list.

Not wanting to jump into any hot debate ....
But I think you could have regular Tau at BS3 and veterans at BS4 maybe, with different entries in the Codex (just like the IG)
I don't think the Crisis should come with a stock BS4, but maybe as an upgrade like the vehicles (or obviously BS5 with upgraded veterans)

and on the fluff side about the IG being farmers, bakers .... that's the Eldar Guardian you're talking about
The Imperial Guard regiments are coming from the best the PDF (Planetary Defense Forces) has to offer, it's an honor to be selected to be an Imperial Guard (for the majority of planets & regiments, some Death Worlds & Fortress World like Cadia only produce elite troopers a.k.a Imperial Guardsmen)
Regular PDF would have something like WS/BS 2 and Ld 5 or 6. Chaos cultists should have the same statline with maybe a higher Ld to indicate they're loonies
Remember the second part of the post is only fluff-wise

Newsflash: Tau BS is mediocre to bad because you're supposed to be using Targeting Arrays and Markerlights. Lots of Markerlights. A BS4 Veteran Fire Warrior team as Elites would be cool, but nobody would ever take it because everyone's using nine Crisis suits. BS4 elite Crisis suits don't really fit anywhere in the list; sure, you could allow Crisis teams as Troops and make better Crisis teams as Elites, but then nobody would ever take Fire Warriors. If you can coordinate well with your Pathfinder teams, BS3 should never be a serious problem.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Newsflash: Tau BS is mediocre to bad because you're supposed to be using Targeting Arrays and Markerlights. Lots of Markerlights. A BS4 Veteran Fire Warrior team as Elites would be cool, but nobody would ever take it because everyone's using nine Crisis suits. BS4 elite Crisis suits don't really fit anywhere in the list; sure, you could allow Crisis teams as Troops and make better Crisis teams as Elites, but then nobody would ever take Fire Warriors. If you can coordinate well with your Pathfinder teams, BS3 should never be a serious problem.

Ohman... I would... I love the Mass Fire Warrior army, and being able to take 18-36 more would be fantastic.
And now that's being added to my Tau Extended codex.

 Ovion wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Newsflash: Tau BS is mediocre to bad because you're supposed to be using Targeting Arrays and Markerlights. Lots of Markerlights. A BS4 Veteran Fire Warrior team as Elites would be cool, but nobody would ever take it because everyone's using nine Crisis suits. BS4 elite Crisis suits don't really fit anywhere in the list; sure, you could allow Crisis teams as Troops and make better Crisis teams as Elites, but then nobody would ever take Fire Warriors. If you can coordinate well with your Pathfinder teams, BS3 should never be a serious problem.

Ohman... I would... I love the Mass Fire Warrior army, and being able to take 18-36 more would be fantastic.
And now that's being added to my Tau Extended codex.

Over here, we houseruled the Tau Codex, so Fire Warriors are a 4-24 models unit. The full 24 FW blob is I-N-S-A-N-E. Especially with an allied DivinerSeer.

As a Tau player I think the stat line is fine for all the army. The issue that comes to mind is that Tau immediately start a game down in the psychic area. For example, having the ability to buff a squad for a turn for re-rolls, etc. is huge in this game. Tau do not benefit. Yes the fluff says they do not register in the warp, but I'm not advocating for psy abilities in the army. Hopefully, in the re-write of the codex GW gives the HQ certain keys to wargear that grants these buffs. Call it network stims or counter-AI machines, etc.

It's in theses critical moments of the game where Tau like the way to "stack the deck" in their favor.

Well to the OP, its probably because GW is lazy and there base BS for anything automated is BS 2

as for evertyhing else.

BS 3 for FW is fine but as they go up in ranks and become vets they should get BS 4 (then mabye make targeting arrays more expensive as if it was such a cheap equipment why dont they put them into every helmet suits and gun sights.)

I really hate the justification that Tau are Bs3 because marker lights. In that case make any army that has access to Divination BS3 because they can get such awesome buffs. Ignore that it's on a limited and somewhat vulnerable and expensive unit.

My issue is you either give FW larger numbers and special weapons or keep them small with higher stats. They have the limited numbers of an elite army with blob stats. That is not right.

An easy fix is to have Pathfinders with hard-wired target-locks as standard, and perhaps give them BS4 or at least access to it (they are, after all, meant to be the eyes and ears of the Tau, and it wouldn't do to have eyes and ears that couldn't see).

Fire Warriors don't need BS4. They need a slight price drop and Pathfinders needs a serious price drop as well as a better way of doing their job. Having Pathfinder squads with target locks would go a long way to making Tau better as an army, because right now they can target 1 unit with often an overkilly amount of markerlights. I dropped Pathfinders for Tetras because Pathfinders just don't work.

If they all had target locks, however, the Tetra no longer becomes an auto-take, because the player has to balance being able to hit a lot of squads with markerlights between accurately painting a single squad. Pathfinders also start to become a lot more useful, with one squad of 8 potentially lighting up 8 different targets, or more likely, lighting up a target with 3 MLs for crisis suits, lighting up another with 3 for FWs, and lighting up a third with 2 for Broadsides. Statistically, you get 4 hits, 1.5 for the suits and FWs, and 1 for the BSides, which is far from overpowered. You might lucky and roll more, or you might get unlucky and roll fewer. That's how the game works.

All FWs need is a price reduction. That is it. Fix Pathfinders instead.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
I really hate the justification that Tau are Bs3 because marker lights. In that case make any army that has access to Divination BS3 because they can get such awesome buffs. Ignore that it's on a limited and somewhat vulnerable and expensive unit.

Problem is, that you can have Divination only on 2 units at maximum. While with Tau you can have Markerlights on... every unit I guess? And of course don't forget that Tau do have access to Divination, so by your logic, their BS3 is justified .