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Basically, this is a simple replacement for the Chaos Cultist unit in Codex: Chaos Space Marines. I think it makes the cultists feel a little bit more like cultists rather than professional soldiers and gives them a unique role in the army rather than being a poor substitute for basic bolter-jockey chaos marines.

I can't see much difference apart from the Sorceror upgrade, but here's my ideas anyway:

1: Let them have Infiltrate at 1pt/model.

2: With Ld8 I can't see the Sorceror getting his powers off that often.

3: The Sorceror doens't really fit the Cultist theme. They're supposed to be a rag-tag mob of lunatics, I can't see a Sorceror fitting in much in such a group.

4: I'd like to see the option for some sort of overseer. Maybe a standard CSM who gives a Leadership boost to the unit, and has an execution ability similar to Comissars. Say for example if the squad breaks, he'll execute D3 members of the unit to allow for a re-roll of the test. He can take CCW upgrades and marks, but apart from that he's a standard CSM.

I would keep them as human 3 3 3 3 1 3 1 7 6+
autopistol and CCW or Autogun or shotgun, may mix and match to like
45 points for 9 cultists and the champion.
one in 10 models may take a flamer, heavy stubber or grenade launcher for FREE
additional cultists 3ppm.

I dont like giving them flat infiltrate, but there is a chance that they could be from the planet and know the area, otherwise they might get other benefits.

So the cultists may be upgraded to being local(to the planet)+1 ppm
at the begining of the battle roll a dice
1 nothing of note
2 know the area -infiltrate
3 know the terrain -stealth
4 politically involved-hatred
5 resistance fighters - preferred enemy
6 all of the above.

I like the psyker/sorceror rule. for 20 points give them 2 powers but warp change 1. On Ld8(7 once the champ is dead) they wont cast too many but they should be entertaining.

 Exergy wrote:
I would keep them as human 3 3 3 3 1 3 1 7 6+

That's not 'human', that's 'Imperial Guardsman'; a highly trained professional soldier chosen from the best candidates available. Imperial Guard conscripts are probably closer to generic human stats.

Perfect Organism wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
I would keep them as human 3 3 3 3 1 3 1 7 6+

That's not 'human', that's 'Imperial Guardsman'; a highly trained professional soldier chosen from the best candidates available. Imperial Guard conscripts are probably closer to generic human stats.

Maybe not the 'best', more like average with some additional training. I'd consider relativly untrained skills at a 2, while very well trained/experienced would be a 4. Obviously 5s and higher are exceptional. It might make sense to drop them to WS2/BS2 and their base cost to be 4 pts. Arguably, mobs like this would gain moral from the size of the group so it might make sense to give them a +1 bonus to leadership for every 10 models in the squad (not to exceed 10).

As for the chaos list, I like the idea of them becoming a psycher unit. I gives a them another way to be played besides pure meat shield.

Perfect Organism wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
I would keep them as human 3 3 3 3 1 3 1 7 6+

That's not 'human', that's 'Imperial Guardsman'; a highly trained professional soldier chosen from the best candidates available. Imperial Guard conscripts are probably closer to generic human stats.

and yet virtually all the henchmen in the GK codex are WS3 BS3. Same with the wychhunters. It is a d6 system, you cannot have that much variation. Thus a DE wych, who has spent every waking minute of a thousand year life in an gladiatorial arena is WS4. A CCS bodyguard, basically a guardsman with some bar fighting skill is also WS 4.
3s across the board is any regular human. WS 2 denotes comically bad skill. BS 2 is also comically bad skill. Cultists are not untrained, unproven. Sure some of them may be, but they are more likely street gangs, ex soldiers, guys who have been around the block. They got their guns and armor somewhere.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pk1 wrote:

Maybe not the 'best', more like average with some additional training. I'd consider relativly untrained skills at a 2, while very well trained/experienced would be a 4. Obviously 5s and higher are exceptional. It might make sense to drop them to WS2/BS2 and their base cost to be 4 pts. Arguably, mobs like this would gain moral from the size of the group so it might make sense to give them a +1 bonus to leadership for every 10 models in the squad (not to exceed 10).

As for the chaos list, I like the idea of them becoming a psycher unit. I gives a them another way to be played besides pure meat shield.

dropping them to WS/BS 2 would be too much. Guardsmen cost 4 points a model, and have flak, grenades, and orders. Reducing them to WS/BS3 and you are getting down to 3ppm(gretchen)

pk1 wrote:
Maybe not the 'best', more like average with some additional training.

Imperial Guardsmen are either recruited from worlds with ridiculously badass populations who dedicate their entire lives to warfare and survival (such as Krieg, Catachan and Cadia) or are selected from the best troops in the PDF. Maybe they aren't all top-tier special-forces level, but they are a cut above the average modern professional soldier.

 Exergy wrote:

Perfect Organism wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
I would keep them as human 3 3 3 3 1 3 1 7 6+

That's not 'human', that's 'Imperial Guardsman'; a highly trained professional soldier chosen from the best candidates available. Imperial Guard conscripts are probably closer to generic human stats.

and yet virtually all the henchmen in the GK codex are WS3 BS3. Same with the wychhunters. It is a d6 system, you cannot have that much variation. Thus a DE wych, who has spent every waking minute of a thousand year life in an gladiatorial arena is WS4. A CCS bodyguard, basically a guardsman with some bar fighting skill is also WS 4.
3s across the board is any regular human. WS 2 denotes comically bad skill. BS 2 is also comically bad skill. Cultists are not untrained, unproven. Sure some of them may be, but they are more likely street gangs, ex soldiers, guys who have been around the block. They got their guns and armor somewhere.

An inquisitor's personal retinue isn't made up of ordinary people recruited off the street with some basic skills. They choose exceptional individuals and give them extensive training to ensure they are up to the task. Look at how badass the henchmen in Eisenhorn or Ravenor are. Or how competent a Dark Heresy character needs to be before being expected to go into the field with an inquisitor.

A company command squad bodyguard seems unlikely to be just some soldier with experience of bar-brawls. Most of the 'life-wards' in the fiction seem to be exceptional martial-artists, often with surgical and chemical enhancements. Maybe they don't quite match up with ancient alien gladiators or space marines in terms of skill, but I'd class them as significantly better than normal humans with basic training.

If 3 is 'regular human' and 2 is 'comically bad', why are conscripts WS/BS 2? Conscripts aren't incompetent scum. They are young warriors from martial cultures, PDF troops who haven't had full guard training and other types who can be expected to know how to fight but aren't exactly the best. They are pretty much exactly the same kind of people I would expect chaos cults to recruit (or at least the ones who are likely to survive in chaos society). I gave them a bonus to WS and Ld to represent their savage fanaticism, but I think that in general cultists should be closer to 'conscripts' than 'guardsmen'.

Perfect Organism wrote:

pk1 wrote:
Maybe not the 'best', more like average with some additional training.

Imperial Guardsmen are either recruited from worlds with ridiculously badass populations who dedicate their entire lives to warfare and survival (such as Krieg, Catachan and Cadia) or are selected from the best troops in the PDF. Maybe they aren't all top-tier special-forces level, but they are a cut above the average modern professional soldier.

 Exergy wrote:

Perfect Organism wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
I would keep them as human 3 3 3 3 1 3 1 7 6+

That's not 'human', that's 'Imperial Guardsman'; a highly trained professional soldier chosen from the best candidates available. Imperial Guard conscripts are probably closer to generic human stats.

and yet virtually all the henchmen in the GK codex are WS3 BS3. Same with the wychhunters. It is a d6 system, you cannot have that much variation. Thus a DE wych, who has spent every waking minute of a thousand year life in an gladiatorial arena is WS4. A CCS bodyguard, basically a guardsman with some bar fighting skill is also WS 4.
3s across the board is any regular human. WS 2 denotes comically bad skill. BS 2 is also comically bad skill. Cultists are not untrained, unproven. Sure some of them may be, but they are more likely street gangs, ex soldiers, guys who have been around the block. They got their guns and armor somewhere.

An inquisitor's personal retinue isn't made up of ordinary people recruited off the street with some basic skills. They choose exceptional individuals and give them extensive training to ensure they are up to the task. Look at how badass the henchmen in Eisenhorn or Ravenor are. Or how competent a Dark Heresy character needs to be before being expected to go into the field with an inquisitor.

A company command squad bodyguard seems unlikely to be just some soldier with experience of bar-brawls. Most of the 'life-wards' in the fiction seem to be exceptional martial-artists, often with surgical and chemical enhancements. Maybe they don't quite match up with ancient alien gladiators or space marines in terms of skill, but I'd class them as significantly better than normal humans with basic training.

If 3 is 'regular human' and 2 is 'comically bad', why are conscripts WS/BS 2? Conscripts aren't incompetent scum. They are young warriors from martial cultures, PDF troops who haven't had full guard training and other types who can be expected to know how to fight but aren't exactly the best. They are pretty much exactly the same kind of people I would expect chaos cults to recruit (or at least the ones who are likely to survive in chaos society). I gave them a bonus to WS and Ld to represent their savage fanaticism, but I think that in general cultists should be closer to 'conscripts' than 'guardsmen'.

conscripts are not young warriors from martial cultures, they are just young bums drawn from the where ever seems to need more warm bodies. In the IG codex, supposedly every planet in the imperium supplies guardsmen, not just the martial cultures with warriors.

What about servitors, do they all have extensive combat programing? GK psykers and mystics? Do they have extensive combat training? Astropaths, masters of ordinance, techpriests. All WS3 nad likely too busy learning anything else to do much close combat training.

A gretchin has BS 3 and I doubt they have extensive combat training.

Guardsmen are NOT the best of the best. Not all Guardsmen are Cadians, even though they wish they were. Many Guardsmen are simple humans, conscripted into the military by tithe, given a few week basic training ON THE WAY to combat, supplied a las-gun and flak armor and told to fight.

Cadians and the featured regiments are just a few worlds in a galaxy of billions. Oh and conscripts? Yeah no. Conscripts are literally 12-13 year old boys (at least in Cadia, the supply of most of the fluff) who aren't even trained and told to fight. IF they live, they may just become actual Guardsmen.

And EVERY planet has to give Guardsmen. And it's not a "recruit from the PDF" thing, it's forced on everyone. Some regiments end up becoming PDF's after garrison duty though. Every planet has to give, not just ones that have good soldiers on them.

And im an IG player. Stop trying to make us sound much better trained and equipped than we actually are hahaha


And to the GK henchmen having BS3, take the Warrior Acolyte (the most likely one to use that BS3). The fluff literally says that some come from the top Imperial schools, but most come from gangs and thieves of hive worlds because that fits the underground nature of some Inquisitors haha.

Even GW said BS3 is at it's core supposed to represent you had some training in your weapon. You may have shot it before. Maybe not. It's a 50-50 chance. BS4 represents you are actually skilled at your weapon (hence IG veterans and SM's). WS3 is some rough combat training AKA you swung a bayonet around in Basic Training. WS4 is someone who has had actual melee training, training reserved ONLY for higher up people and the most elite. I don't think a normal Guardsmen or cultist fulfills that haha. Maybe Khorne cultists found a way to have melee training to let more blood flow but...that's pushing it

 washout77 wrote:
Guardsmen are NOT the best of the best. Not all Guardsmen are Cadians, even though they wish they were. Many Guardsmen are simple humans, conscripted into the military by tithe, given a few week basic training ON THE WAY to combat, supplied a las-gun and flak armor and told to fight.

Cadians and the featured regiments are just a few worlds in a galaxy of billions. Oh and conscripts? Yeah no. Conscripts are literally 12-13 year old boys (at least in Cadia, the supply of most of the fluff) who aren't even trained and told to fight. IF they live, they may just become actual Guardsmen.

And EVERY planet has to give Guardsmen. And it's not a "recruit from the PDF" thing, it's forced on everyone. Some regiments end up becoming PDF's after garrison duty though. Every planet has to give, not just ones that have good soldiers on them.

And im an IG player. Stop trying to make us sound much better trained and equipped than we actually are hahaha


And to the GK henchmen having BS3, take the Warrior Acolyte (the most likely one to use that BS3). The fluff literally says that some come from the top Imperial schools, but most come from gangs and thieves of hive worlds because that fits the underground nature of some Inquisitors haha.

Even GW said BS3 is at it's core supposed to represent you had some training in your weapon. You may have shot it before. Maybe not. It's a 50-50 chance. BS4 represents you are actually skilled at your weapon (hence IG veterans and SM's). WS3 is some rough combat training AKA you swung a bayonet around in Basic Training. WS4 is someone who has had actual melee training, training reserved ONLY for higher up people and the most elite. I don't think a normal Guardsmen or cultist fulfills that haha. Maybe Khorne cultists found a way to have melee training to let more blood flow but...that's pushing it

I agree mostly with what you are saying. The argument is not that cultists should be WS4 but that they shouldnt be WS2 either. They might have to scrounge around for weapons and guns but they probably would have held them before and probably used them. They would be mildly unsavory characters, filled with chaos fervor. WS3 BS3 makes sense for the average of the huge variety of cultists that chaos fills its ranks with, just as WS3 BS 3 is right for the average non special guardsman.

Yep. I agree. For the run of the mill everyday cultist, BS3 WS3 will serve them just fine.

 washout77 wrote:
Guardsmen are NOT the best of the best. Not all Guardsmen are Cadians, even though they wish they were. Many Guardsmen are simple humans, conscripted into the military by tithe, given a few week basic training ON THE WAY to combat, supplied a las-gun and flak armor and told to fight.

Those guys are known as 'conscripts'.

 washout77 wrote:
Cadians and the featured regiments are just a few worlds in a galaxy of billions. Oh and conscripts? Yeah no. Conscripts are literally 12-13 year old boys (at least in Cadia, the supply of most of the fluff) who aren't even trained and told to fight. IF they live, they may just become actual Guardsmen.

Cadian 'whiteshields' are young men and women who haven't fully completed their training, but I don't recall them being described as mostly 12-13 year olds; I got the impression they were generally closer to 16-17. Plus, they train from a very early age... being taught to handle military-grade weapons 'before they can read' (although that's not really a precise date, I'd guess that means well before puberty). There's a huge difference between 'not fully trained to a very high standard' and 'not trained at all'.

 washout77 wrote:
And EVERY planet has to give Guardsmen. And it's not a "recruit from the PDF" thing, it's forced on everyone. Some regiments end up becoming PDF's after garrison duty though. Every planet has to give, not just ones that have good soldiers on them.

To this end, each populated planet shall raise and maintain forces for it's own defence and from it's ranks shall it provide the best of it's troops for recruitment into... the Imperial Guard.

...should a thithe be of an unacceptable quality, the Imperial Governor's life is forefit. For this reason those soldiers selected for the Imperial Guard tend to be draw from the elite of a planets troops.

Every planet in the Imperium has some form of military which is capable of defeding it from attack. Either they are a brutal warrior-society that has enough fighters to drive off an invasion or they need to organise and train a PDF army. It's compulsory for them to have high quality soldiers available. There is basically no such thing as an imperial world which doesn't have good soldiers available and even then, they only supply the best they have to the guard.

Hmm, good points. And yep, for the life of me I can't think of where in the codex/what book I saw it but Whiteshields are around 14. Once they turn 17 they graduate to the Guard.

Also, mind you, thats the IDEAL scenario. We all know that just because the rules say something in the Imperium it doesn't always happen. I would think that under the current circumstances the Imperium wouldn't turn away possible soldiers no matter how good they were or not. Sure, the Governor may be "taken out" but really. How often does that happen hahahahaha *cough* A lot *cough*.

Whole point being, not all Guardsmen are the best of the best. For every Cadia there is a hundred no-name basic regiments.

Also, game wise, we work off of a D6 system. BS3 may be too bad for what fluff says IG should be able to do, but BS4 may be too good (as that's a Space Marine, and we all know Space Marines HAVE to shoot better than a Guardsman). So, for balance, they gave IG BS3 base. The skill doesn't have to reflect fluff too well really, since it's a hard system to work off of.

Infinity has a D20 system, which is much better as you can have much better representations of units skills and much easier variation (but, that's irrelevant and I digress)

 washout77 wrote:
Whole point being, not all Guardsmen are the best of the best. For every Cadia there is a hundred no-name basic regiments.

Yeah, but equally for every Blood Pact or Sons of Sek there are millions of cults with no real training or experience. I didn't want to show that all guardsmen are supersoldiers, I just wanted to establish that on average they are likely to be significantly more capable than chaos cultists and chaos cultists aren't likely to be significantly better than IG conscripts, on average.

 washout77 wrote:
Also, game wise, we work off of a D6 system. BS3 may be too bad for what fluff says IG should be able to do, but BS4 may be too good (as that's a Space Marine, and we all know Space Marines HAVE to shoot better than a Guardsman). So, for balance, they gave IG BS3 base. The skill doesn't have to reflect fluff too well really, since it's a hard system to work off of.

I don't think that adding more detail results in more verisimilitude in games. I've seen plenty of tabletop RPGs which have stats expressed as percentages and I don't think it really helped them.

If cultists were somewhere between 'conscript' and 'full guardsman' in terms of competence, the I'd be happy to 'round up' and give them BS 3, but I really don't see them being in that grey area. They should have conscript-level training at best and conscript-like stats, in my opinion.

What? This isn't even subject to discussion. Perfect is correct, bs2 is "correct." It has the enormous weight of being correct. What are GW minis made from? I don't know, let's have a public forum on whether they are made of plastic or butter; there are two opposing views so they must have equa


anyway


I'm glad you mentioned astropaths. An astropath is one model with a laspistol in a unit of other models with laspistols; nobody uses the guy for his shooting; why would he have a special statline? Chances are, a couple guardsmen in every platoon "have" bs4. It just would be stupid to put that on the table. Every marine captain was in a tactical squad once, and he didn't get +2 wounds just by being handed a captain's... hat.

And here it comes to cultists. Guard squads have lascannons and stuff; in order to be a playable unit they need to hit half the time. Cultists are chaff units with shotguns and heavy stubbers: their job is to take up space and it wouldn't matter if they had bs7 because that only matters for units that can buy autocannons or five meltaguns and a transport.

That's what this unit looks like to me. The changes are about as meaningful as giving them bs7. The codex unit has a few obvious jobs and it does without taking up extra play time. I like Latd type armies but this doesn't go anywhere or do anything.