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Can someone please explain to me how vehicles are allowed to roll Invulnerable saves, where are the mechanics regarding this specifically?

I thought the only save option for vehicles was with cover.

Thanks in Advance!!!

Technically the only vehicle with the explicit option to roll an invulnerable save vs glancing or penetrating hits is Bjorn the Fellhanded; as the invulnerable save rules themselves only include provision for rolling it for unsaved wounds.

That said, i suspect few will argue if you roll it exactly like you would a cover save; only vs both ranged and close combat attacks.

CSM vehicles can upgrade to demonic possession with a 5+ invuln. Say you get 1 pen and 2 glance. Roll them separately, if he saves them no worries, if not roll on the appropriate damage chart. . Same with sisters of battle except theirs is a 6+ invuln and comes stock.

Yes you would roll for each glance or pen and then act accordingly.

I can't find anything on page 68 that states Daemonic Possession confers the 'Daemon' special rule. Regardless of that.

chewielight wrote:
Yes you would roll for each glance or pen and then act accordingly.

Why? What is the page reference in the Rulebook?

I'm just looking for the location of the applicable mechanics that allow Invulnerable saves to be taken by vehicles.

Well if you want to ignore my prior post indicating there isn't one explicitly listed, i suppose i shall say it a second time.

The rule you are looking for does not exist in the specific format you are looking for it in. Be advised however that generally anyone you 'do' play with will roll invulnerable saves on vehicles in exactly the same fashion as they do on other models, with the exception that they will apply it to glancing or penetrating hits instead of unsaved wounds.

 Neorealist wrote:
Well if you want to ignore my prior post indicating there isn't one explicitly listed, i suppose i shall say it a second time.

The rule you are looking for does not exist in the specific format you are looking for it in. Be advised however that generally anyone you 'do' play with will roll invulnerable saves on vehicles in exactly the same fashion as they do on other models, with the exception that they will apply it to glancing or penetrating hits instead of unsaved wounds.

This, only Bjorn has a 100% RAW working invul save for a vehicle.

I didn't ignore your first post. You explained exactly how the mechanic for cover saves due to obscurity work. (pg 74)

Maybe I need to clarify further. .

We live in a permissive rule set, cover saves are explicitly granted to vehicle by having rules in place. There is no rule where explaining how to deal with Invulnerable saves that a vehicle is granted. It even has been expressed in this thread that Inv saves only interact with unsaved wounds, which a vehicle does not ever receive. The chance that Inv saves do not interact with vehicles at all is a real possibility. This is why I'm asking for help.

No need to get ridiculous Neorealist, I just want to have the correct answer with all information presented.

This was the same argument in 5th.

Like many of GW's rule, an FAQ is needed. This one hasnt been FAQ'd yet. However, everyone has played it the same as cover for several editions now. The wording is always the same.

If a vehicle did not get to roll an invuln because it does not suffer a wound, then the demon rule on the Helldrake is exactly worthless.

Fyrebyrd wrote: No need to get ridiculous Neorealist, I just want to have the correct answer with all information presented.

I apologise if i am being unclear or if there is any abiguity in what i am saying; however how many times do you require me to say quite explicitly that there is no written mechanic currently in place to roll an invulnerable save vs a glancing or penetrating hit (with the specific sole exception i noted in my earlier post)?

You are asking for a rule allowing you to roll an invulnerable save for a vehicle. There isn't one, by virtue of the Invulnerable save rules not being comprehensive enough. Any other questions?

 Darkness wrote:
This was the same argument in 5th.

Like many of GW's rule, an FAQ is needed. This one hasnt been FAQ'd yet. However, everyone has played it the same as cover for several editions now. The wording is always the same.

If a vehicle did not get to roll an invuln because it does not suffer a wound, then the demon rule on the Helldrake is exactly worthless.

It wouldn't be completely worthless, it would be a weakness when playing Grey Knights.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thanks everyone for your input!

Saves grnted to vehicles allow them to avoid glancing and penetrating hits.

Chaos Daemon Soul Grinders and Bjorn are not the only ones who get saves. Flyers and skimmers set Jink saves. Dark Eldar have shields.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Saves grnted to vehicles allow them to avoid glancing and penetrating hits.

Chaos Daemon Soul Grinders and Bjorn are not the only ones who get saves. Flyers and skimmers set Jink saves. Dark Eldar have shields.

Jink is counted as a cover save - otherwise it woudln't stack with stealth/shrouded/turbo boost etc etc.



The "Daemon" special rule grants a 5+ invul save.

In the CSM Codex the following vehicles have the Daemon Rule (and therefore a 5++):
Maulerfiend
Forgefiend
Heldrake
Defiler

dark eldar flickerfields..

ork armor plates..

there were invulnerable saves prior to the chaos codex for vehicles not including bjorn.

Right, but there are no rules covering their use for anyone but Bjorn.

so of course they are included in the codex as options that cost points and have rules there but they are unusable....

sometimes this forum is more of lawyering discussion and less of rules discussion.

Yep, pretty much. This forum 'is' the lawyering section, that is it's intended purpose. (note: i do not have any problems with that, in fact i rather enjoy the intellectual exercise such engenders)

 conker249 wrote:
CSM vehicles can upgrade to demonic possession with a 5+ invuln.

As someone already mentioned, Daemonic Possession doesn't grant a 5++ save. All it does is grant the vehicle (not any embarked units) immunity to the effect of shaken and stunned damage results, and the ability to 'eat' a passenger to regain a Hull Point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Neorealist wrote:
Yep, pretty much. This forum 'is' the lawyering section, that is it's intended purpose. (note: i do not have any problems with that, in fact i rather enjoy the intellectual exercise such engenders)

This. Reading and participating in this forum had vastly increased my understanding of the rules, as well as how to resolve rules questions when they come up during games.

blaktoof wrote:
so of course they are included in the codex as options that cost points and have rules there but they are unusable....

RAW yes. It's obvious how it's intended to work, and I don't know of anyone that plays this way.

sometimes this forum is more of lawyering discussion and less of rules discussion.

You should familiarize yourself with the tenets of the subforum. They're educational.

Dont forget Sisters of Battle vehicles. They all get a 6++ too!

Remember that many of the things said here probably they would never say at a tournament or gaming store... Caveat emptor.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
... Caveat lector

That should be the motto.

Officially, I mean.

According to RAW, Bjorn is the only vehicle that can make invulnerable saves.

It is very clear that RAI is to allow vehicles to benefit from invulnerable saves, look at the DE codex they actually have a piece of vehicle wargear that does nothing besides provide an invuln save.

One important thing to remember when reading these forums is that many discussions are about strict RAW, they are not how most of the people arguing it actually play.

 TheAvengingKnee wrote:
It is very clear that RAI is to allow vehicles to benefit from invulnerable saves, look at the DE codex they actually have a piece of vehicle wargear that does nothing besides provide an invuln save.

All too true, and as long as me and my opponent agree to use a vehicle Inv save just as their Cover saves and according to other save restrictions all is well. That is - you use it against Glance/Penetrate results and you only use the best save for any one hit.

If one wants to be a real donkey one can always try to dig up one of the FAQs where GW tells us about Codex options that don't seem to do anything - and they basically told us that if it doesn't work in the rules then it doesn't work until a new rulebook or codex makes it work. And we do have plenty of those things. Anything to do with Outnumbering in CC resolution, Eldar Banshee masks vs charging into terrain... Sadly the rules have changed and it doesn't work.

the atomantic shielding gives the contemptor a 5+ invulnerable save though iirc

 matapata98 wrote:
the atomantic shielding gives the contemptor a 5+ invulnerable save though iirc

There are many abilities that give many vehicles invul saves.

Cite the rules that allow it to actually do anything. FYI, unless you're referring to Bjorn, there are no rules for vehicle invuls.

There's technically no rules allowing Vehicles a save at all.

The rulebook specifies all saves are taken against Wounds.
The rules state Vehicles that a vehicle can get a Cover Save, but nothing specifies how it rolls them. (That I've seen)

So RAW, no vehicle apart from Bjorn gets a save.
BUT, Cover Saves and Invulnerable Saves abound among vehicles, so they can obviously take them.
And if anyone told me I couldn't, and insisted I wasn't able to, I think it would be one of the few instances I'd probably pack up and leave.

The rules for taking a cover save on a vehicle are on page 74 and 75 of your 6th edition codex. They explicitly state that: "...If the target is obscured and suffers a glancing or penetrating hit, it must take a cover save against it, exactly like a non-vehicle model would do against a Wound..."

Sadly no similar verbiage exists for invulnerable saves at present, other than Bjorns' specific exception.

Every sisters of battle vehicle has an invul save.

I don't have my rulebook with me at work, but this question seems to be simple if you connect some dots. Vehicles get cover saves. check! Take the same as a model with wounds. check! Now someone read the section about a model with multiple saves. This should force the model that has multiple saves, to take the save that is the best. Thus a vehicle with a cover save (or even no cover save because it's in the open "it's cover save is negated") and/or inv save to take which ever save is the best for the situation. This should allow any vehicle that has an inv save to take it's inv if it's better then it's other options.

Like I said, if someone else could quote things, I'd be appreciative. Don't have my book here at work. Hopefully my line of thinking make sense to you.