Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

GameFreak975 wrote:
I think Chaos Space Marines of all armies have a lot to gain from the ADL. The Quad-Gun's interceptor/skyfire abilties really helps out in a lot of scenarios. Flakk Missiles on Havocs are useful in some scenarios but they're too expensive for what they put out (Str7, AP4, Heavy 1 isn't good enough to justify the cost).

So that being said, Chaos can afford to load up on autocannons and mass number of shots on their heavy support options like Havocs and Chaos Marines and stick them behind an Aegis Line on the backline and hold an objective. Havocs and Marines will fight off a lot that tries to come near them with their mass quantities of firepower (including the Quad-Gun). Plus, Havocs will be scoring in Big Guns Never Tire, and if you mark them with Nurgle you've got multiple autocannon-wielding T5 scoring marines with 4+ cover and the option to go to ground for a 2+. That's pretty nice.

While ADL marines hold the backline, Chaos can make use of its incredibly durable troops/elites/heavies (Plague Marines, Thousand Sons(who are in fact HAMPERED by cover but shine in the open), Obliterators, FNP Noise Marines) to move up and slam at the enemy. This gives you tons of target saturation and the durability to survive it. Against Horde armies, they'll have to pick who to go after. Playing static with Chaos never really gets you far, but allows the enemy to concentrate on you as they please. If you force them to separate, they'll become less and less effective. 'Nids especially.

The ADL is a tool that is more useful against some armies and less against others. I like them as I think more times than not they could be useful. Moreover, my army is somewhat lacking in the AA department. But I definitely think that I should give autocannon havocs another go (tried them briefly in my very first game or so). Just need to take the time to convert them. In any case, I could have definitely played the ADL much better and will be adjusting my tactics in the future. I was mainly intending to use them for protection against my opponent's assault, but it didn't turn out that way.

To separate nids is easier said than done. My army just doesn't have the mobility to do so. I've actually tried that tactic 3 times now, deepstriking Epidemius and plaguebearers away to try to divert tyranid resources and split them up. I've lost all 3 of those games and in 2 of them, Epidemius & unit got wiped out on the turn they came in. I may just have to deploy in 2 opposite flanks the next time I play against bugs, but with Kevin's build of dual-gargoyles, infiltrating genestealers and flyrant it's going to be hard to get away from them.

 Ineedvc2500 wrote:
Wonderful analysis!

Thanks!

 DexKivuli wrote:
The rule book does say that the Aegis line consists of UP TO 4 long and 4 short wall segments, each of which must be placed in base contact with another one. It might be worth taking fewer than the full allocation of wall segments in many cases to give yourself more space to move.

Perhaps, though I prefer to use the whole thing. Actually, sometimes I feel that it is not long enough.

I just need to get more creative on how to use it better.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Nidz are looking very strong... Nurgle not much so,

I hope my series of bug battle reports are opening some people's eyes. Tyranids are very strong in this edition. There's only a handful of builds that will give them problems...and those armies are not that popular anymore. To me, Chaos is fun because it is a challenge to play them. I'm loving their underdog status, because they really are an underdog army IMO. Just like the old daemonhunters that I used to play. Part of the fun is to find yourself in a hard fight each and every game, because then the victory just tastes so much sweeter.

 calypso2ts wrote:
Those Plague Bearers could not have swept the Gaunts, but otherwise an interesting game.

My bad. Thanks for pointing that out. We both missed that one, though I believe my opponent probably forgot it because he took pity on me. j.k.!

I really think a CSM list focusing on the Tally needs to bring more bodies - not zombies, I mean actual Plague Marine or CSM with MoN bodies to the table. The real benefit imo is when those Bolters start to ramp up in effectiveness and when FNP goes to a 3+.

The cost of including the Tally is relatively low - so that part does not make it impractical - the cultists too are really bubble wrap for the rest of the army. I think keeping the Spawn further back (and adding another unit maybe) would have been beneficial too.

I agree on your thoughts on the Aegis, it can be a real trap. It is a shame that he had such a plum spot to DS - I originally thought you were going to spread those zombies way out to deny a good landing site.

The problem is that then I wouldn't be able to take my "toys" - oblits, chaos spawn and heldrake. Plague marines are just so expensive, though CSM is reasonably priced. Perhaps I will take just 1 large zombie squad next time and swap out 1 unit of oblits for 2 autocannon havocs. Any available points leftovers will then go to the troops. Or maybe I just won't run Typhus next time.

The idea of the zombies is to buy some time for the rest of the army to build up the Tally. Zombies will trip up any approaching enemy unit, tying them up in combat and perhaps giving the rest of my army 1 or 2 additional turns of shooting.

Spawn was to help get the Tally up quickly as well. To me, they are just another roadblock to slow down the enemy, though they do have the bonus of being able to contribute to the Tally, especially in this game. Besides, I really didn't want to get assaulted by his gargoyles and Typhus' zombies failed to assault the gargoyles.

My plan for the zombies was to act as a roadblock for the rest of his army. I felt that they were the greater danger compared to the Doom. But in hindsight, that would have probably been the better tactic.

Hopefully you'll get your pox sorted. Good luck!

Yea, being the underdog makes it much more interesting and makes you a much better player. Good games to read, and lots of interesting information to digest.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
The CSM list I would be hesitant to play with the coming rumors for a new CD dex.

Nurgle is still a solid Chaos build, even without the Tally. It just happened that I already have Epi + plaguebearers from my 10K+ daemon army and they aren't really too expensive points-wise. I also really like force-multiplier units and feel that their contributions to the army oftentimes is greater than the contribution from any 1 single unit. However, if the new CD dex comes out and changes all this, then I shall just run pure Nurgle CSM. It wouldn't be too much of a nerf to them.

 Janthkin wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
The CSM list I would be hesitant to play with the coming rumors for a new CD dex.

While true, it's only a 6 model commitment to Daemons (and Jim already had them). I wouldn't build a new army around the Tally right now, though, for precisely that reason.

Right. To me, the Tally is an added benefit. It isn't the be-all-end-all of my list strategy. A balanced TAC list shouldn't rely on a particular "trick" as the foundation of its strategy. Rather, you can augment your army with the power, but the army has still got to be able to stand on its own 2 feet without the special rule (in this case, Epidemius' Tally).

 Stoffer wrote:

 calypso2ts wrote:
Those Plague Bearers could not have swept the Gaunts, but otherwise an interesting game.

I really think a CSM list focusing on the Tally needs to bring more bodies - not zombies, I mean actual Plague Marine or CSM with MoN bodies to the table. The real benefit imo is when those Bolters start to ramp up in effectiveness and when FNP goes to a 3+.

The cost of including the Tally is relatively low - so that part does not make it impractical - the cultists too are really bubble wrap for the rest of the army. I think keeping the Spawn further back (and adding another unit maybe) would have been beneficial too.

I agree on your thoughts on the Aegis, it can be a real trap. It is a shame that he had such a plum spot to DS - I originally thought you were going to spread those zombies way out to deny a good landing site.

Yeah, I'd also say that in a tally list, HS is probably the most important slot, as it lets you rack up the numbers from turn one. I'd probably be using havocs as well, or another useful unit to bring up the tally. Whenever I've been building the tally list, I've had a rule of thumb that all my HS slots should be filled with units that can produce from turn one. Oblits are the best option, but obviously price-wise 3 squads of 3 becomes too expensive. Havocs etc might be a good choice for the last slot. I'd probably drop the Aegis too.

Actually, I'd say HS is probably the 2nd most important slot. The most important slot in almost any army IMO are its troops. That's why I always try to have at least 4 troop choices minimum in any game greater than 1.5K. (I actually have 6 troops here.) Also, without the troops, you really don't have much to take advantage of the Tally. But HS is really important to a Nurgle Tally list (actually, any Chaos list) because Chaos is really lacking in the ranged firepower department. You also rely on the HS for a large portion of the anti-tank as well as some anti-infantry. So I would make sure to satisfy my troops first, then heavies and then fast attack.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Hopefully you'll get your pox sorted. Good luck!

Thanks. I've got another tough fight coming up....against another tyranid player! Not Janthkin, but it will be a tough fight anyways against 7 monstrous creatures and 60 devourer gants in spores.

 Leth wrote:
Yea, being the underdog makes it much more interesting and makes you a much better player. Good games to read, and lots of interesting information to digest.

Thanks. And I've got more coming....

I don't know if it is time wasted playing Tallyman when it is quite possible you will lose this ability when the new codex is released. I would try my hand at non Tally Nurgle builds so your experience is cumulative and carries over to next year. My gut feeling is this won't be around for much longer.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I don't know if it is time wasted playing Tallyman when it is quite possible you will lose this ability when the new codex is released. I would try my hand at non Tally Nurgle builds so your experience is cumulative and carries over to next year. My gut feeling is this won't be around for much longer.

I may just do that. I've actually been running pure Nurgle sans the Tallyman at 1500. At that level, I think the Tallyman weakens the list overall. Next time, I may run 1750/2000 without daemon allies.

 Janthkin wrote:
And I think he'll need tricks, too. Tyranids, particularly psychic-heavy Tyranids, can be really nasty these days. Jim and I have some ongoing disagreeements on a few units in the codex (I like gargoyles more; he stumps for biovores), but neither of us is in doubt as to the overall strength of the codex. You can keep your allies - Tyranids will devour you all by themselves!

Unless you're playing Venom-spam. Then they'll go cry in a corner somewhere.

Did you get a chance to read my FOYCON Battle reps Janthkin. I took a similar list and got smoked by back to back DE players . All in all I enjoyed playing the list aside from the difficulties in moving 40 gargoyles in a timely manner...so I have decided to sub out one gargoyle squad and Zoe for a unit of 10 ygmarls in my next couple of games.

Have you tried MoN cultists? Their shooting becomes pretty silly once you hit the tally and I find that in units of 35, they're pretty crazy.

Venomspam is really just like getting punched in the dick for Tyranids.

@ jy2

I think that's a great idea and you can try some new stuff. One thing that makes Nurgle so good is the access to several solid troop choices - Plague Marines, Plague Bearers, Zombie cultists and finally cultists with MoN. Very solid horde army potential.

If you include tally elements, why not nurgling blocks? They really benefit from the tally and with their saves and high wound count and low cost make great goal keeper units. Much better than zombies I would think, as zombies don't contribute to the tally right?

Also, in this style of list the masque may help out as an additional herald slot for allies is open. The masque helps mitigate the otherwise slow nature of the army, and also allows you to move units out of cover or bunch up for oblit plasma cannons to reap the tally.

 wyomingfox wrote:

 Janthkin wrote:
And I think he'll need tricks, too. Tyranids, particularly psychic-heavy Tyranids, can be really nasty these days. Jim and I have some ongoing disagreeements on a few units in the codex (I like gargoyles more; he stumps for biovores), but neither of us is in doubt as to the overall strength of the codex. You can keep your allies - Tyranids will devour you all by themselves!

Unless you're playing Venom-spam. Then they'll go cry in a corner somewhere.

Did you get a chance to read my FOYCON Battle reps Janthkin. I took a similar list and got smoked by back to back DE players . All in all I enjoyed playing the list aside from the difficulties in moving 40 gargoyles in a timely manner...so I have decided to sub out one gargoyle squad and Zoe for a unit of 10 ygmarls in my next couple of games.

Got a link to your batreps? Did you ever get past Turn 4? That's probably the reason why I won't take 2 units of gargoyles in tournament play. They just really slow down the game, especially when you take into consideration tyranid psychic powers, gant-spawning and the fact that bugs fully utilize each of the 3 phases of the game.

DE venom-spam is still one of the few armies that will give bugs a hard time, especially now that many tyranid players are swapping out some hive guards for other force-multiplier units (i.e. Doom and/or zoanthropes). However, with the pervasiveness of FNP (Endurance), tyranids can actually last longer against them....assuming they can get that power. I'd love to play against a DE army, but there aren't really too many of those in our area.

 Stoffer wrote:
Have you tried MoN cultists? Their shooting becomes pretty silly once you hit the tally and I find that in units of 35, they're pretty crazy.

Yeah, I did in one of my very first games with them. To be honest, I am not really all too thrilled about them as they get expensive fast. I look for more of a cheap, sacrificial screening/tarpitting unit and zombies are better in that capacity.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
Venomspam is really just like getting punched in the dick for Tyranids.

Yeah. Fortunately for bugs, I think many players are migrating more towards foot lists in this edition. I don't really see too many venom-spam lists in battle reports or hear about them in tournament play recently. Could just be that those players are quiet or that they are trying different things now. In any case, would love to play against a venom-spam list with my bugs.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
@ jy2

I think that's a great idea and you can try some new stuff. One thing that makes Nurgle so good is the access to several solid troop choices - Plague Marines, Plague Bearers, Zombie cultists and finally cultists with MoN. Very solid horde army potential.

While a horde my be fun, it isn't a balanced build. I prefer running more balanced lists. Unfortunately, that would require shooting, which could get expensive fast, leaving you with less points to run a horde (unless they're zombies/cultists).

DevianID wrote:
If you include tally elements, why not nurgling blocks? They really benefit from the tally and with their saves and high wound count and low cost make great goal keeper units. Much better than zombies I would think, as zombies don't contribute to the tally right?

Also, in this style of list the masque may help out as an additional herald slot for allies is open. The masque helps mitigate the otherwise slow nature of the army, and also allows you to move units out of cover or bunch up for oblit plasma cannons to reap the tally.

Tried that before. They're not viable until you get to higher points (probably 2K+) and even still, their lack of mobility and the fact that they may come in late behooves me. They've got hitting power when the Tally gets up there, that's for sure. Problem is, the rest of your army is going to take quite a pounding because you won't be able to use them until probably Turns 3 at the earliest in most cases.

The Masque is another unit that I really like. However, once again, the problem is in trying to find the points to fit her in without sacrificing too much of the army. I'm always trying to funnel more points into my troops. In this case, every available extra points I have go into either shooting or the troops. However, if I was running flamers/screamers or more of an assault-based list, then I really would consider taking her.

 jy2 wrote:

 wyomingfox wrote:
Did you get a chance to read my FOYCON Battle reps Janthkin. I took a similar list and got smoked by back to back DE players . All in all I enjoyed playing the list aside from the difficulties in moving 40 gargoyles in a timely manner...so I have decided to sub out one gargoyle squad and Zoe for a unit of 10 ygmarls in my next couple of games.

Got a link to your batreps? Did you ever get past Turn 4? That's probably the reason why I won't take 2 units of gargoyles in tournament play. They just really slow down the game...

Oh, they are in the DCM forum gathering dust . I reposted them in my painting blogg here:

And no I didn't get past turn 4 in any game. Deploying, moving, shooting and assaulting 40 gargoyles takes a lot of time and things get a lot worst for me when I have to make dangerous terrain checks for jumping out of difficult terrain that was providing cover the turn before. One game to speed up Dangerous Terrain checks I asked my opponent if I could roll them all together on the condition that I remove casualties from the front. Usually I wouldn't do that. Slow play aside, they were a critical part in every one of my victories: whether it was bogging down blood crushers, eating scarab hordes, or nomming on dakka gaunts.

Awesome! Thanks. This makes me really want to get in a game or 2 against DE. I really need the practice before the Bay Area Open, especially since I am seriously thinking about bringing bugs there.

So far against DE I have lost 3 of 4 games. My only win was against my first opponent who was not running a farseer, who didn't take the mech upgrade that lowers weapon ranges by 6", who didn't have the first turn...oh and I subbed out all his dice for Cheetos so he could only roll ones .

Maybe I'll proxy a DE army and do a battle report....just without pictures.

Maybe use vassel?

Sorry, don't really know how to use vassal.