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I would like to go back to the Men of Iron or techno barbarians vs Thunder Warriors.

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
I would like to go back to the Men of Iron or techno barbarians vs Thunder Warriors.

Better watch out for them techno barbarians.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNW-PCTfbH8

BlaxicanX wrote:
Except it won't, because no one except the fluff-extremists, who are the minority anyway, are going to stop buying 40K if we get twenty new fluff excerpts regarding Chaos and the Imperium beating each other up in the Black Crusade in M.42.

But it will, because fans who enjoy the background are in the majority and none of them would be satisfied with more of the same, with a different date-stamp.

Baseless assertions are fun! Wheee!

I, for one, simply want to see something done with the fluff.

While I'm partial to advancement, even if it's only realtime, you know, gradually working our way through the 13th Black Crusade, amongst other "contemporary" conflicts, but just expanding the universe in some meaningful way.

As it is, the only real back story development we see is the Horus Heresy series, the handful of Black Library novels, which are primarily focused on small, specific events, and then one-two paragraph statements in codexes.

There's no shortage of potentially interesting settings for them to explore historically with a meaty expansion, global campaign or whatnot, something akin to the old Macharian Crusade campaign and backstory which was released ages ago; not only did it develop a significant historical character (though only of "recent" 40k history), but it provided a working, playable campaign for people, though it's been so long, I have no idea who actually released that piece of work, or if it's even canon.

As for the risk of alienating more "modern" races like Tau and Necrons, they have lots of avenue for love; who wouldn't like a fleshed out Damocles Gulf Crusade story and campaign, or some development of the Farsight Enclaves. For the Necrons, what about a series of campaigns following ol' lightning bot, Imhotek, or the amusing Nemesor Zahndrek. There's enough going on in the 40k universe to provide a lot of plot and setting expansion, without necessarily moving on to a "conclusion."

I would, however, at least like to see the clock strike past 999M41; the Chaos dex's timeline looked a little silly with the pile of events smashed up at the end, with relatively little (save for the interesting Abyssal Crusade info) prior to the last 20 odd years of the 41st millennium.

I mean, we're reaching MASH territory here, where the plot has lasted longer than the actual events.

Look out for the HH novel Unremembered Empire.

 MajorStoffer wrote:
I, for one, simply want to see something done with the fluff.

While I'm partial to advancement, even if it's only realtime, you know, gradually working our way through the 13th Black Crusade, amongst other "contemporary" conflicts, but just expanding the universe in some meaningful way.

As it is, the only real back story development we see is the Horus Heresy series, the handful of Black Library novels, which are primarily focused on small, specific events, and then one-two paragraph statements in codexes.

There's no shortage of potentially interesting settings for them to explore historically with a meaty expansion, global campaign or whatnot, something akin to the old Macharian Crusade campaign and backstory which was released ages ago; not only did it develop a significant historical character (though only of "recent" 40k history), but it provided a working, playable campaign for people, though it's been so long, I have no idea who actually released that piece of work, or if it's even canon.

As for the risk of alienating more "modern" races like Tau and Necrons, they have lots of avenue for love; who wouldn't like a fleshed out Damocles Gulf Crusade story and campaign, or some development of the Farsight Enclaves. For the Necrons, what about a series of campaigns following ol' lightning bot, Imhotek, or the amusing Nemesor Zahndrek. There's enough going on in the 40k universe to provide a lot of plot and setting expansion, without necessarily moving on to a "conclusion."

I would, however, at least like to see the clock strike past 999M41; the Chaos dex's timeline looked a little silly with the pile of events smashed up at the end, with relatively little (save for the interesting Abyssal Crusade info) prior to the last 20 odd years of the 41st millennium.

I mean, we're reaching MASH territory here, where the plot has lasted longer than the actual events.

Oh how I love people that bother explaining.
Yes, I should've said in the OP, but I also believe you have a point. While I know that advancing the game might be just pissing off some fans, who said it'd need to be done just in the normal 40k? I mean, FW could just make their own series about it, IA style. I also believe that the argument about GW's current generation preferring Imperial victories was not incorrect. GW does seem to add imperial victory stories to a quite a few codexes, without real reason. I am a Space Wolf player mostly, but I'd still love to see GW take the story onward, but add a somehow even amount of victories. The advancement could be slow, just fast enough to add the possibility to add more new campaigns and large conflicts, as they ARE quite cumulatedall around the 750 M41 - 999 M41 era.

Kaldor and BlaxicanX you can both calm the feth down now. Mo one will judge you (this argument won't work anyway.)

Its worth pointing out that FW books aren't depicting an alternate reality but the same setting as the one depicted in the codices and BL novels and FFG books. The truth is that the setting already is growing, just not forward in time.

I'm a bit mixed on this.

I completely understand why some people wouldn't want the plot to move forward; it would take some of the fun out of the game, even if the armies remained exactly as they are, if you knew that your battles didn't matter or that your faction was doomed regardless. And that is the sort of thing that would have to be confronted. Even if the Imperium was somehow saved from seemingly inevitable destruction, certain factions inside it, such as the Cadians and Blood Angels, are fast approaching their expiration date.

That said, I am a major consumer of fiction novels, I literally read about one book per week (that's when school is in session). I like fiction, I like (most of) the BL authors, and I love the grim-dark nature of 40k; I don't need a tidy conclusion, but this monstrous, elegantly crafted cliff hanger is killing me! It's not that I lack creativity, I just have more faith in the creativity of people who got the jobs they currently have by demonstrating their capacity for inventive story telling.

I have also noticed the feeling of cramming that MajorStoffer mentioned. Creativity in codex design has to be limited when everything new must be retconned into existence. It's not that the past isn't enough, there's just so much potential for neat ideas that can't be used in a static timeline.

To preemptively conclude what threatens to become a rant, I, as an individual, would love for GW to move the story forward (both in fluff and in gameplay), but can also see the danger inherent in such a move.

 Gul_Tekar wrote:
I don't need a tidy conclusion, but this monstrous, elegantly crafted cliff hanger is killing me!

Bingo! The reason why the setting's timeline won't advance is in this sentence. At the close of the 41st Millenium everything is coming to a head - it's a massive "What's going to happen?!" sort of thing and an advance in the setting's timeline could really smash that tension and ruin what, for me, is the main draw for 40k.

For me it's about the Imperium teetering on the brink, clinging on by broken fingernails, screaming in agony but unable to let go. Beset on all-sides and from within the Imperium is slowly heading towards destruction as much through internal problems as external - but if the Imperium tried to change how it worked to save itself it'd probably shatter and fall apart - it needs the uniting factor of the God-Emperor & Imperial Creed, without the Administratum the Imperium would grind to a halt - even attempting to change the Administratum could destable the Imperium significantly as it's too big to change easily or quickly. Doing away with the High Lords of Terra could have incredible consequences - for one, the Brotherhood of Mars, expelled from their seat amongst the High Lords, could break away from the Imperium, rendering it essentially unarmed plus if a high ranking Astartes took over there is the issue that they might try and change things 'for the better' and bring down the Imperium as it all unravels and falls apart - a bit like trying to rearrange all of the blocks on a Jenga tower whilst taking away some of the towers foundations.

That's the simple version, I could probably go into more depth but another time perhaps.

You're completely right. I'm just sad that I'll never get to know how it ends (and don't give me any "you can imagine it" crap).

I am happy to see it stay the same with only the odd reference in fluff to the following millenium.

If it was done - it would need to be done right - I still much prefer older BattleTech to Clan era and beyond - even though it was done well there - I still like the old 5 Successor states and their struggles and politicing as laid out by the Stackpole novels.

I'd rather they fleshed out more stuff with the intervening millenia - so much cool stuff in the fluff to look out.

lastly, they can't even manage to get a decent amount of Codexes/updates done using the same general information they use for each edition - if we we went to 41K we'd like get one Codex an edition.....................

 Manchu wrote:
Its worth pointing out that FW books aren't depicting an alternate reality but the same setting as the one depicted in the codices and BL novels and FFG books. The truth is that the setting already is growing, just not forward in time.

THIS

those of us that want the setting to advance, doesnt want an ending, doesnt want primarchs returning and that stuff, we just like to see what happened after the black crusade, how the imperium is doing after losing so much.
the dark eldar ravaged bakka, thats a segmentun naval base... i would like to know how will the imperium deal with that

After the disaster that was the Newcron Codex, I don't have faith in any of the GW in-house team to advance the timeline. It might not be so bad if FFG and BL were to flesh out the "future" in increments, but another massive middle finger to the established fans is not the way to go.

They should base the story off of the fans... For example the Cadia thing, do a massive tournament good vs evil and make the story outcome based off of the tournament outcome. Iirc they did it in the past, why not again?

They can do bfg then planet missions and stuff.

Base the fluff off of fan play. Then we can kinda have a say in the story line. It would be fun and a way of gw to include its fan base.

I think GW let Forge World do the shiny campaign packs these days?

I really enjoy them - I was pleased that Spartan did a similar - if not as big and glossy, with their recent Dystopian Wars campaign packs - Huricane Season and Storm of Steel. They did a good job with them and hope to see more

usmcmidn wrote:
They should base the story off of the fans... For example the Cadia thing, do a massive tournament good vs evil and make the story outcome based off of the tournament outcome. Iirc they did it in the past, why not again?

They can do bfg then planet missions and stuff.

Base the fluff off of fan play. Then we can kinda have a say in the story line. It would be fun and a way of gw to include its fan base.

This might work.

Part of the reason the timeline looks smashed is that the timeline is only detailed for a short period of time.

I'm sure that a ton of stuff was happening back through the last 10,000 years. It's just that GW hasn't gone back through and painstakingly detailed every minor event and campaign like has been done with the recent fluff. Why not? Because that's kinda silly, and a waste of time.

If you look at the "significance" of the M41 events, most of them wouldn't have even been worth writing about if they had happened in, say M36, or something.


Buy yeah, agreed on the cliffhanger being the draw of 40K. Players get to pretend that their battles are actually happening in a living universe. If we know the ending, that's sorta out the window. Like I had said before, the "setting" and the "timeline" are just a framework for you to play games with little toy soldiers. The setting exists how it does so that it is perpetually frozen in a time when all of these ridiculous factions can be warring for your tabletop entertainment.

You missed an option.

GW routinely updates he story: through revamped codex releases that invalidate large swaths of previous "history".

Case in point: necrons. Went from soulless machines doing the will of the c'tan to soulless machines fighting each other, trading (?) with everyone, no more c'tan, etc. ( now what are they going to do about mars?)

So, the story never moves forward, but it certainly evolves. As long as they continue filling in the past, I'm good. Although I think the heresy needs to be kick started. It's gotten more than a bit regurgitated.

No.

No matter which direction they took it, the fans would be unhappy with it.

 LlamaAgility wrote:

usmcmidn wrote:
They should base the story off of the fans... For example the Cadia thing, do a massive tournament good vs evil and make the story outcome based off of the tournament outcome. Iirc they did it in the past, why not again?

They can do bfg then planet missions and stuff.

Base the fluff off of fan play. Then we can kinda have a say in the story line. It would be fun and a way of gw to include its fan base.

This might work.

They did that for Armaggedon 3. It just ends up being an Imperial victory because there's so many Space Marine players.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

 LlamaAgility wrote:

usmcmidn wrote:
They should base the story off of the fans... For example the Cadia thing, do a massive tournament good vs evil and make the story outcome based off of the tournament outcome. Iirc they did it in the past, why not again?

They can do bfg then planet missions and stuff.

Base the fluff off of fan play. Then we can kinda have a say in the story line. It would be fun and a way of gw to include its fan base.

This might work.

They did that for Armaggedon 3. It just ends up being an Imperial victory because there's so many Space Marine players.

True. A FW campaign might ork, if all factions had an equal chance, regardless of player amount

Engaging the world wide gaming community to fight a campaign in order to determine the next 100 years of timeline would be a marketing coupe.

Do that once a year and you'd have a living universe driven by player participation. It would take 10 years to go through a 1,000 in the 40k timeline.

Further they could use the results to help drive power levels for codex releases to help tip things into knife edge balance. Add a bit of story telling in the process such as taking the names of certain units from top players / teams and integrating them into some fluff prior to the next campaign. This would be pure awesomesauce.

Heck, they could print books like Crusade of Fire each year detailing campaign details and how to send submissions and it would almost become a required purchase for most 40k'ers.

Imho, no. The timeline ends M41, and with the massive foreshadowing that GW has built up over the years, anything that would come out of delving into M42 would either result in a drastically different setting or be seriously disappointing. And both of these prospects have a high chance of negative repercussions for the IP. Retcons would have to be made, looming consequences (such as the Flesh Tearers being targeted for termination, to name just one example) would have to be discarded.

Besides, even though I personally would be interested in a fundamentally different M42 where, say, the drastic changes could render anything we know inconsequential, I do believe that there is ample potential in fleshing out the many millennia of history that have been barely touched so far. If you look at the timeline, half the stuff we know happens in M41. Surely, the other eras would have many grand stories to tell as well? Epic battles to be fought? Entire stellar empires could rise and fall in that timeframe. There is so much untapped potential, even just fleshing out the bits we already know (such as the aforementioned Age of Apostasy) should deliver enough fluff for dozens of books, codices or even new armies.

Really, it is like a bunch of historians and archaeologists just having finished mapping mankind's history from now all the way to the 14th century, and then instead of going back even further they turn their attention to the upcoming New Year's Eve and go "oh boy, I wonder what the new year is going to bring".

Manchu wrote:Its worth pointing out that FW books aren't depicting an alternate reality but the same setting as the one depicted in the codices and BL novels and FFG books.

Gav Thorpe and Andy Hoare still say otherwise.
But we should better keep this in the other thread rather than detract from this debate. I've recently posted a reply, by the way - sorry for having dropped out on it for a few days.

It's the dawn of a new millennia, much will change, the core will stay the same as that's GW's golden goose. And you know what they say about slaying the goose which lays the golden eggs...

usmcmidn wrote:
They should base the story off of the fans... For example the Cadia thing, do a massive tournament good vs evil and make the story outcome based off of the tournament outcome. Iirc they did it in the past, why not again?

They can do bfg then planet missions and stuff.

Base the fluff off of fan play. Then we can kinda have a say in the story line. It would be fun and a way of gw to include its fan base.

They did that. It was called Eye of Terror. And it changed nothing, because they didn't want to disappoint the losers. So the ending was a stalemate, just like Armageddon, despite being a massive Imperial Victory, is still an ongoing conflict because GW didn't want to piss off the Ork players who got thrashed.

 Lynata wrote:

Manchu wrote:Its worth pointing out that FW books aren't depicting an alternate reality but the same setting as the one depicted in the codices and BL novels and FFG books.

Gav Thorpe and Andy Hoare still say otherwise.

No they really don't -- at least not the extent that their opinions "matter" to the current position of GW, especially vis-a-vis the HH series.

Arcsquad12 wrote:They did that. It was called Eye of Terror. And it changed nothing, because they didn't want to disappoint the losers. So the ending was a stalemate, just like Armageddon, despite being a massive Imperial Victory, is still an ongoing conflict because GW didn't want to piss off the Ork players who got thrashed.

This lack of consequence keeps bothering me, but it extends far beyond the campaigns. I can understand the business reasons behind it, but on the other hand I do believe that a "living world" would make for a far more interesting setting.

What I would do is to take something smaller and let the players duke it out for that. Don't let them fight for the fate of the galaxy like in the Black Crusade ... just over a single star system, like in the Medusa campaign. This way, it shouldn't really hurt anyone when they lose. Also, I'd probably make it an annual thing, so that people can plot their revenge and (possibly) regain lost honor.
Also, such campaigns are way easier to insert into the already existing history before M41, since they simply would not have far-reaching consequences that would need to be taken into consideration.

 Manchu wrote:

 Lynata wrote:

Manchu wrote:Its worth pointing out that FW books aren't depicting an alternate reality but the same setting as the one depicted in the codices and BL novels and FFG books.

Gav Thorpe and Andy Hoare still say otherwise.

No they really don't -- at least not the extent that their opinions "matter" to the current position of GW, especially vis-a-vis the HH series.

"Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong."
Gav Thorpe

"It all stems from the assumption that there’s a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or ‘true’ representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth."
Andy Hoare

The lack of a "true representation" and the existence of "overlapping realities" does not sound like a single, uniform setting to me, sorry. You have your 40k, I have mine. And we're just two people - dakka has many more posters with their very own idea of 40k in their heads, in addition to the many novel authors or game designers that churn out licensed products for us to buy.

Replied to your reply, btw.

Go ahead and try to apply those two ex-employee's ruminations on the HH series, at least regarding your (halfway*)mistaken belief that they are talking about alternate realities signified by different authors. Sorry Lynata but those guys are behind the times. Just ask Graham McNeill about his new audio drama, as I already advised you.

* Andy Hoare is making a much bigger mistake than you, one that totally eclipses yours. I mean, people aren't buying Hunt for Voldarious because it was written by Andy Hoare -- other than his personal friends, of course.

How about "anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex" -Marc Gascoigne

I think Lynata and I, after some clarification, actually both start from that point.