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 Loch wrote:

I actually am not a big fan of either of these. Nixing allies means fewer choices, and that's sad.

Youve played the same list for the past 6 months. And its a spam list...

 MikeFox wrote:

 Loch wrote:

I actually am not a big fan of either of these. Nixing allies means fewer choices, and that's sad.

Youve played the same list for the past 6 months. And its a spam list...

 disdainful wrote:

 MikeFox wrote:

 Loch wrote:

I actually am not a big fan of either of these. Nixing allies means fewer choices, and that's sad.

Youve played the same list for the past 6 months. And its a spam list...

When will the decision on allies be made? I am trying to work my schedule so I can go, especially since it is 1750 and will be good practice for the LVO, and that effects what I will bring. If it's no allies I will be bringing Nurgle Flying Circus again but now with some Plaguedrones at 1750. If allies are allowed then I need to get finished building a LR and Centurions for my White Scars and Salamanders list I plan to take to the LVO. Don't take this too seriously as I am currently prone to acting in a more falconish manner

I'm not ready to make a decision just yet, mostly because no one has made a compelling argument for or against allies.

Though Mike makes an excellent point at Ian's expense! We'll see. Honestly, support for and against Allies has come from unexpected places.

If I had my say, Desperate Allies would be right out, Allies of Convenience would have MASSIVE restrictions and risks, and Battle Brothers would have some re-tooling.

No allies should give people more points to spend on big toys and since thats the argument for 1750pt games so be it.

And it might shake up some of the tired and true lists we have been seeing. And I love playing different people with different lists, prevents people from building to take out just one person.

 MikeFox wrote:

 Loch wrote:

I actually am not a big fan of either of these. Nixing allies means fewer choices, and that's sad.

Youve played the same list for the past 6 months. And its a spam list...

That's not even remotely accurate. I've showed up with a different list every tournament I've been to this year. Allies actually makes my listbuilding less of a copy-paste exercise, not more.

Id like to point out that this is true. His list has been slightly different each time; I was merely taking a pot shot when I saw the chance.

My opinion that we should run a no ally tourny at least once still stands.

There's a top bun and bottom bun of Venoms, but the meat inside has changed from list to list, to be sure.

It's just so hard to tell from looking at it!

I disagree with no allies, i think it can help shore up a weaker codex and let people (me) run models that arent great on their own. That said, im not making it next monthso YEAH GO FOR IT!! :-)

Don't worry, I'll make sure to stick you with a no allies event. It'll be a surprise!

Actually, the 'allies helps weaker books compete' idea is the best argument in favor I've heard yet, so there's that.

And what weaker books might those be? Orks I know but who runs them other then me? Tyrinids cant bring allies and everyone else has a strong book.

There are still strong ork biker lists out there so I dont feel that argument holds up in the long run.

 MikeFox wrote:
And what weaker books might those be? Orks I know but who runs them other then me? Tyrinids cant bring allies and everyone else has a strong book.

There are still strong ork biker lists out there so I dont feel that argument holds up in the long run.

I feel the books are being written with Allies in mind these days. Not to mention books like Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Grey Knights, Imperial Guard, Dark Angels, Dark Eldar, and Chaos Space Marines really need help from other quadrants in order to perform well in a competitive environment. "Pure" lists that compete to win are rare from those books, especially Space Wolves (and to a lesser extent GK) who have no viable AA options of their own, and are weak in the current meta when put up against "pure" lists from Necrons, Space Marines, Daemons, Eldar, and Tau. To me the idea of going no allies won't expand the types of armies we see it will actually narrow it down to the newest books that are also capable of building lists that can compete without help. When was the last time you saw a "pure" list from IG, GK, SW, BA, or IG win a larger competitive tournament? Put that aside for a moment and think on this. If I run my Nurgle Daemon Flying Circus and I run into a "pure" list from any of the aforementioned codices on the outs I don't have any real fear. Even GK who are supposed to be "awesome" against Daemons I handled pretty easily on the 3 occasions I have met them. But if it is GK allied with IG, or GK allied with Necrons I have a fairly uphill battle to fight.

The idea that removing allies promotes a more diverse tournament environment just seems counter-intuitive to me. With the exception of Tyranids the prospect of allies only broadens the possibilities of what armies I will face. I can't imagine someone bringing a "pure" list from BA, DA, GK, SW, IG, or DE. Those codices are just too weak on their own. CSM lists, as long as they have no actual CSMs, are a viable option. They just get even scarier when you ally in some Daemons, Necrons, or vice versa.

*edits are for massive spelling and grammar errors. I had way too much coffee today!!!

I agree that restricting allies will narrow the diversity more than expand.

@MikeFox: CSM dont have a strong book. They have 2 strong units. 3 if you include my Defiler stuck behind a disabled Rhino. :-D

Ok, times up, what is the next RTT's format? I want to start planning. You got all your going to get out of these guys. It sounds like no allies because they are too weird and 1750 because everyone knows how to get thru that in time. Hell, I could bring my God Hammer list and be guaranteed to get thru all 6 turns. It's tons of fun to play with all my smoke effects.

 sgtpjbarker wrote:
Ok, times up, what is the next RTT's format? I want to start planning. You got all your going to get out of these guys. It sounds like no allies because they are too weird and 1750 because everyone knows how to get thru that in time. Hell, I could bring my God Hammer list and be guaranteed to get thru all 6 turns. It's tons of fun to play with all my smoke effects.

Not sure where you got that from...

I was in the store and Chuck was saying that he didn't like the allies because of the strange combos that people choose, his example was a Daemon allied with a Tau. I see the argument if you play the game for the fluff value, but I don't see the argument if you play the game just as a game. My feeling is that it is a game, so the game rules allow allies, then we should play the game and allow allies. If the store wants fluff tourneys then allies should be controlled and limited. I don't care either way as I like to play both styles. As to seeing the same lists, I think the TO could probably defeat that by designing some scenarios or forcing players to play certain kinds of units. I remember a Warmachine event where the store gave you your caster and you had to deal with him/her in you game. Sounded fun, but I have not heard it run again so it may have been a one shot wonder.

So, it sounds like the store needs to make the choice and then run with it, I don't hear anyone making the argument for or against this so I say the TO make the decision so we can get our lists built.

 sgtpjbarker wrote:
I don't hear anyone making the argument for or against this so I say the TO make the decision so we can get our ...

I thought John and Trevor wrote two posts in favor of Allies.

Anyway, here's the same , and main argument FOR Allies:

Variety. Different elements are fun to face and use, instead of spammed / repeated units, like lotsa venoms, 5 SM Drop Pods, Parking lots, Mechdar, etc.

A counter argument to that would be that mixing allows for rough combos like farseers buffing units from other armies, like a farseer with a BeastM or Riptide unit.

However, I assert it's more for having a h2h element compensate for your shooty mainstay, like incorporating TH/SS termies with IG or Tau. Or giving your slow IG blob a fast element like SM speeders or Drop Pods.

On the non-Ally side of things, I just ran an all Eldar list this last tourney. Perfectly happy, I was.
----------
That said, Paul, make two lists, one Allied and the other a One-Booker (TM) and get in some practice games.

Fluffy tournament is an oxymoron. I think/hope Chuck was talking about a league style he wanted to put together. I agree, allies are part of the game. People are buying their product and spending their hobby time with that in mind, it wouldnt be fun to not be able to qualify for a tournament with a paint score because 750 points of your current models cant be feilded.

Cry me a river (Since I have to repaint an ork horde)

 MikeFox wrote:
Cry me a river (Since I have to repaint an ork horde)

I have to paint an entire army one way or another to compete in this tournament! I still vote for allies because banning them only makes army diversity smaller not larger.

Im speed painting a list for the Midnight madness tournament, so Ill have some done regardless.

1750 was never in question, I'm growing more confident everyone out there can handle the big-boy pants, and if I don't run some events at more 'normal' points levels we'll never get there. I'd never want to be accused of coddling the group over logistics!

As for the Allies thing, I'm starting to feel like I'm outfitted in fine silks and wearing a big white wig, and Paul is foreman of the crew building the guillotine!

It looks like the greater consensus is in favor of Allies, so I'm going to go ahead and say Allies are in for this event. I'll make sure that when we do a no Allies event next year I'll put on the schedule with plenty of time for people to see it coming and prepare, if only so I can be suitably acerbic to the guys who forget and show up unprepared!

 disdainful wrote:
1750 was never in question, I'm growing more confident everyone out there can handle the big-boy pants, and if I don't run some events at more 'normal' points levels we'll never get there. I'd never want to be accused of coddling the group over logistics!

As for the Allies thing, I'm starting to feel like I'm outfitted in fine silks and wearing a big white wig, and Paul is foreman of the crew building the guillotine!

It looks like the greater consensus is in favor of Allies, so I'm going to go ahead and say Allies are in for this event. I'll make sure that when we do a no Allies event next year I'll put on the schedule with plenty of time for people to see it coming and prepare, if only so I can be suitably acerbic to the guys who forget and show up unprepared!

Good call!!

I lol'd. BTW Ill be bringing 3 batteries of Big Gunz so for the love of god we better play Big Guns Never Tire. All Kromlec, All the time. I think that will be my armies new motto

Big Gunz Neva Tire.

Except when we run out of ammo runts, cause then we cant hit for gak

 disdainful wrote:
1750 was never in question, I'm growing more confident everyone out there can handle the big-boy pants, and if I don't run some events at more 'normal' points levels we'll never get there. I'd never want to be accused of coddling the group over logistics!

As for the Allies thing, I'm starting to feel like I'm outfitted in fine silks and wearing a big white wig, and Paul is foreman of the crew building the guillotine!

It looks like the greater consensus is in favor of Allies, so I'm going to go ahead and say Allies are in for this event. I'll make sure that when we do a no Allies event next year I'll put on the schedule with plenty of time for people to see it coming and prepare, if only so I can be suitably acerbic to the guys who forget and show up unprepared!

Great idea

Awesome, thank you.

Ok guys, here is an article to be discussed.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2013/10/goatboys-monday-tirade-perfect.html

I really like the percentage idea.

Lmao, the comments section in that one is golden. I am not opposed to bringing back comp in an easy to figure out and score format. Also my opponent should never get to give my list a comp score. Ever.