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 sgtpjbarker wrote:
Ok guys, here is an article to be discussed.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2013/10/goatboys-monday-tirade-perfect.html

I really like the percentage idea.

I started another thread on the comp ideas. Less on the percentage, but more on FoC limitations.

I think our esteemed TO might enjoy implementing items 1 and 2 on GB's list. The Best This Xeno, Best That Imperial useless door prizes again, but frankly, I think his treasure box got emptied out months ago. Maybe he'll take a donation ...

I missed the fluff tourney this last summer (it did happen, right?) so it'd be cool to have it happen again within a half year. It would be cool to play; like the percentage format or my proposed (or similar) FoC format.

-- - - - - -
Off topic. Those BoLS guys post heavily on the douche side of things, huh? Or does GB just draw ire?

Im fine with a scripted comp score. You know X points if you spend this many points in Troops, Y points for have a single HQ.

Im all for 1500 pt games, fast and fun. Heck sign me up for a four round 1000 pt tournament.

And IM ALL FOR spreading the prize love. If there had been any newbies at the last tournament I would have given away my prize money. I have everything Ill ever need.

Brothererekose wrote:

 sgtpjbarker wrote:
Ok guys, here is an article to be discussed.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2013/10/goatboys-monday-tirade-perfect.html

I really like the percentage idea.

I started another thread on the comp ideas. Less on the percentage, but more on FoC limitations.

I think our esteemed TO might enjoy implementing items 1 and 2 on GB's list. The Best This Xeno, Best That Imperial useless door prizes again, but frankly, I think his treasure box got emptied out months ago. Maybe he'll take a donation ...

I missed the fluff tourney this last summer (it did happen, right?) so it'd be cool to have it happen again within a half year. It would be cool to play; like the percentage format or my proposed (or similar) FoC format.

-- - - - - -
Off topic. Those BoLS guys post heavily on the douche side of things, huh? Or does GB just draw ire?

Goatboy is actually a really good guy and the lists he brings, generally, are not as spammed filled as what he posts. That said he does come up with some of the nastiest combos. It isn't so much that GB is a douche etc but that BoLS is filled with trolls which is why I rarely comment there anymore. Also GB is a member of Dakka so posting about him breaks no forum rules but he is a good guy despite tHe online rep.

 sgtpjbarker wrote:
Ok guys, here is an article to be discussed.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2013/10/goatboys-monday-tirade-perfect.html

I really like the percentage idea.

L
O
L
!!



You people started running around screaming and getting dirt in your hair about an event with no Allies (you know, the way 40k has been for 25 of its 26 years...? ). There'd be a server reset on the world after which we'd all wake up in the desert of the real if we did percentages!

That said and in the interest of discourse, here's my take on Goaty's points:

1. Yes and Yes. We have discussed this many times, particularly within the warmachine community at the store, and particularly over the last couple years of us traveling more. The truth is, most events get prizes wrong. They're handed out slipshod or inefficiently; players who play for the duration of events get hosed since they get fancy tickets or tokens to spend at vendors that aren't open when the event is over, some events just get skipped for prizes (truth, have seen it happen). It isn't as big of a deal in 40k since there's one main event and it's easier to keep a handle on it, but it's still an issue when the prize pool is weak.

As you'll notice, I'm bringing this into our local events. We have been doing Best Overall, Best Sport, Best Army, with the occasional door prize and Best General mixed in, and starting with this event we'll be doing First Place, Best Imperial, Best Non-Imperial, Best Sport, Best Army. I'm upping the prize pool as well to fire things up. More Prizes means more to go around, and players aren't just shooting for the top spot or bust. Hopefully it will work well.

2. Unfortunately, there's just no way to do this without it devolving into just another element of the format to game. If I give a full game win for bringing fully painted, the players who are interested in winning will just make sure to be fully painted and it becomes a meaningless distinction at best. Further, it's a LOT of work to design a rubric by which I can award points to players for bringing 'variety', and as soon as it's been playtested and settled, the meta changes and it's out the window. A living document could be made, but it just seems like an unnecessary element of arbitration to add into the format.

*edit* as to fixed percentage buys for lists, X% in Troops gets you Y points, no more than Z% in heavy/fast/etc. gets you Q points, the rub with that is that different codexes are 'diversified' via different rubrics, so it would take a larger document that has the same weaknesses as above. That being said, it would be interesting to discuss amongst the group how exactly that would look.

Do I give a player who brings Dreadnoughts bonus points because they're kinda bad? Do I dock a player for too many Venoms? It's a lot to consider and just seems to me like an area ripe for problems and hurt butts. How many is too many for the 'good' stuff? How much is enough of the 'bad' stuff to get points?

3. *shrug* We've been doing 1500 for the last year, and now that I've been talking about upping the points everyone seems excited. The truth is, the last year has been the first year of 6th, and the release schedule for new books has been the fastest its ever been. There's a lot to keep up with. My observation is that things are starting to settle down and people are getting used to the game, which means the great points level debate might become less of an issue. Honestly, talking about 1500 at this point seems silly, but everywhere else in the world people have been playing 1750 and up, so maybe the fact that I kept things at 1500 has just helped the local community. If so, you're welcome. If not, oh well, I tried the best I could!

4. This is another *shrug* for me. We've fiddled with light comp for many a year, the truth is it's never been the issue in 40k that it's been in WHFB. That being said, I'm going to be quite leery of comp in the future (and I hate to keep harping on it, but) , especially since the idea of no Allies got everyone up in arms. That's a type of comp, after all ,and if the response is generally negative to a broad-stroke element like Allies, I'd be surprised if a full, line-item style comp system didn't get the mob out and the torches lit.

And there you go. over.

 disdainful wrote:

 sgtpjbarker wrote:
Ok guys, here is an article to be discussed.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2013/10/goatboys-monday-tirade-perfect.html

I really like the percentage idea.

L
O
L
!!



You people started running around screaming and getting dirt in your hair about an event with no Allies (you know, the way 40k has been for 25 of its 26 years...? ). There'd be a server reset on the world after which we'd all wake up in the desert of the real if we did percentages!

That said and in the interest of discourse, here's my take on Goaty's points:

1. Yes and Yes. We have discussed this many times, particularly within the warmachine community at the store, and particularly over the last couple years of us traveling more. The truth is, most events get prizes wrong. They're handed out slipshod or inefficiently; players who play for the duration of events get hosed since they get fancy tickets or tokens to spend at vendors that aren't open when the event is over, some events just get skipped for prizes (truth, have seen it happen). It isn't as big of a deal in 40k since there's one main event and it's easier to keep a handle on it, but it's still an issue when the prize pool is weak.

As you'll notice, I'm bringing this into our local events. We have been doing Best Overall, Best Sport, Best Army, with the occasional door prize and Best General mixed in, and starting with this event we'll be doing First Place, Best Imperial, Best Non-Imperial, Best Sport, Best Army. I'm upping the prize pool as well to fire things up. More Prizes means more to go around, and players aren't just shooting for the top spot or bust. Hopefully it will work well.

2. Unfortunately, there's just no way to do this without it devolving into just another element of the format to game. If I give a full game win for bringing fully painted, the players who are interested in winning will just make sure to be fully painted and it becomes a meaningless distinction at best. Further, it's a LOT of work to design a rubric by which I can award points to players for bringing 'variety', and as soon as it's been playtested and settled, the meta changes and it's out the window. A living document could be made, but it just seems like an unnecessary element of arbitration to add into the format.

Do I give a player who brings Dreadnoughts bonus points because they're kinda bad? Do I dock a player for too many Venoms? It's a lot to consider and just seems to me like an area ripe for problems and hurt butts. How many is too many for the 'good' stuff? How much is enough of the 'bad' stuff to get points?

3. *shrug* We've been doing 1500 for the last year, and now that I've been talking about upping the points everyone seems excited. The truth is, the last year has been the first year of 6th, and the release schedule for new books has been the fastest its ever been. There's a lot to keep up with. My observation is that things are starting to settle down and people are getting used to the game, which means the great points level debate might become less of an issue. Honestly, talking about 1500 at this point seems silly, but everywhere else in the world people have been playing 1750 and up, so maybe the fact that I kept things at 1500 has just helped the local community. If so, you're welcome. If not, oh well, I tried the best I could!

4. This is another *shrug* for me. We've fiddled with light comp for many a year, the truth is it's never been the issue in 40k that it's been in WHFB. That being said, I'm going to be quite leery of comp in the future (and I hate to keep harping on it, but) , especially since the idea of no Allies got everyone up in arms. That's a type of comp, after all ,and if the response is generally negative to a broad-stroke element like Allies, I'd be surprised if a full, line-item style comp system didn't get the mob out and the torches lit.

And there you go. over.

Awesome points all around. Perhaps cut and paste that into Casey's other thread!

That said I think it is important to note that we haven't ever really had the problem of too many uber lists running around our events. I think my Cron Air was as close as we ever got to that and let's be honest a single Overall and 2 second place finishes is less than stellar. This is a much more important conversation for the GT level events where 15-30 of the same Eldar and Tau lists seem to be everywhere. Hell even at the height of GK dominance in 5th there were still 4 or 5 dominant builds from the book, you just don't see that from the modern codices.

 OverwatchCNC wrote:
That said I think it is important to note that we haven't ever really had the problem of too many uber lists running around our events. I think my Cron Air was as close as we ever got to that and let's be honest a single Overall and 2 second place finishes is less than stellar. This is a much more important conversation for the GT level events where 15-30 of the same Eldar and Tau lists seem to be everywhere. Hell even at the height of GK dominance in 5th there were still 4 or 5 dominant builds from the book, you just don't see that from the modern codices.

Well, we're planning a multi-day event for next year, so hopefully some of these points will be more relevant for us going forward!

The Empire Open, folks! You heard it here first!

 disdainful wrote:

 OverwatchCNC wrote:
That said I think it is important to note that we haven't ever really had the problem of too many uber lists running around our events. I think my Cron Air was as close as we ever got to that and let's be honest a single Overall and 2 second place finishes is less than stellar. This is a much more important conversation for the GT level events where 15-30 of the same Eldar and Tau lists seem to be everywhere. Hell even at the height of GK dominance in 5th there were still 4 or 5 dominant builds from the book, you just don't see that from the modern codices.

Well, we're planning a multi-day event for next year, so hopefully some of these points will be more relevant for us going forward!

The Empire Open, folks! You heard it here first!

I would put the Picard "Full of Win!" Meme here normally but this isn't Facebook. Suffice it to say this makes me very happy.

Um yes.This needs to happen now. Literally tomorrow and for the next 5 day non stop tournament. Last man standing wins.


But yeah an Open event would be awesome. Ill get you some purity seals for sure as give aways.

 MikeFox wrote:
Um yes.This needs to happen now. Literally tomorrow and for the next 5 day non stop tournament. Last man standing wins.


But yeah an Open event would be awesome. Ill get you some purity seals for sure as give aways.

Travis, if the above in Red occurs then Capture and Control via me will also provide some sort of cool trophy for the winner of the Overall award! maybe a big glass stein inscribed with the event name, year, and prize won! I would want it!

 OverwatchCNC wrote:

Brothererekose wrote:
-- - - - - -
Off topic. Those BoLS guys post heavily on the douche side of things, huh? Or does GB just draw ire?

Goatboy is actually a really good guy and the lists he brings, generally, are not as spammed filled as what he posts. That said he does come up with some of the nastiest combos. It isn't so much that GB is a douche etc but that BoLS is filled with trolls which is why I rarely comment there anymore. Also GB is a member of Dakka so posting about him breaks no forum rules but he is a good guy despite tHe online rep.

Yeah, GB is the voice of sanity in the thread. It's the trolls that made me think, oh, yeah, this is why I devote time to one forum ...



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 disdainful wrote:
The Empire Open, folks! You heard it here first!

Oh, to play a GT in my own back yard ...

Suh, wEET!

 OverwatchCNC wrote:

 MikeFox wrote:
Um yes.This needs to happen now. Literally tomorrow and for the next 5 day non stop tournament. Last man standing wins.


But yeah an Open event would be awesome. Ill get you some purity seals for sure as give aways.

Travis, if the above in Red occurs then Capture and Control via me will also provide some sort of cool trophy for the winner of the Overall award! maybe a big glass stein inscribed with the event name, year, and prize won! I would want it!

Challenge accepted!

 MikeFox wrote:

 OverwatchCNC wrote:

 MikeFox wrote:
Um yes.This needs to happen now. Literally tomorrow and for the next 5 day non stop tournament. Last man standing wins.


But yeah an Open event would be awesome. Ill get you some purity seals for sure as give aways.

Travis, if the above in Red occurs then Capture and Control via me will also provide some sort of cool trophy for the winner of the Overall award! maybe a big glass stein inscribed with the event name, year, and prize won! I would want it!

Challenge accepted!

Again a meme would fit!

I still have the GW purity seal... all we need to do is make a cast...

I'm thinking purity seal for everyone who attends, C&C sponsored engraved steins for top 8, trophies for winners, plus product prizes.

Might be good, we'll see.

A cast, what its not like I work at an FX shop making molds and casts all day or anything....

Remind me next time you're in the shop, I'll hand off the one I have into your delicate care!

After that we'll just have to figure out the ribbon and scripting.

I'm just showing up late to say that no allies sounds pretty rad.

 Thokt wrote:
I'm just showing up late to say that no allies sounds pretty rad.

LOL I needed you here two days ago!

We'll do it sooner or later, I'm working on the calendar for next year and there'll be a no Allies event mixed in there.

Is the RTT 1750 or 1500?

I'm thinking of doing a 40k marathon and going after the temecula midnight event.

The Facebook page says 1750 and allies. Travis will have some cool tables and I will try and bring my terrain as well.

 schadenfreude wrote:
Is the RTT 1750 or 1500?

I'm thinking of doing a 40k marathon and going after the temecula midnight event.

Join the club!

 MikeFox wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
Is the RTT 1750 or 1500?

I'm thinking of doing a 40k marathon and going after the temecula midnight event.

Join the club!

You guys should carpool!

I'll definitely bring donuts for this one, so that anyone who does the marathon (and anyone else who comes) gets a good healthy breakfast!

@Paul: If you do end up bringing your terrain, please let me know so I can have a table ready for it in the morning!

 disdainful wrote:

 Thokt wrote:
I'm just showing up late to say that no allies sounds pretty rad.

LOL I needed you here two days ago!

We'll do it sooner or later, I'm working on the calendar for next year and there'll be a no Allies event mixed in there.

It's alright, I've haven't even been on the scene lately. I'm into the fluffy tourneys and no allies type stuff. I'm old school I guess.

The new league we're starting at the store with Hero Advancement and all that disallows Allies, so I thought it would be an interesting question to pose to the group. Honestly the opinion was roughly split between people talking about it here, on Facebook, and in person at the store, so it's definitely on the docket for 2014.

In the end, the most salient point for this event was that with less than a month to prepare and painting requirements in effect, saying No Allies would just hamper players' ability to attend. So Allies are in.

And to add to the crossfire, here's the counterpoint to Goaty's tournament article from Monday!

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2013/10/comp-is-for-commies-and-unicorns.html

The only comp you should ever consider is hard comp!

Leenus wrote:
The only comp you should ever consider is hard comp!

Lee, we all know why! This is why you should give up WHFB and I come back to the dark side.

We miss ya Lee!

Nothing will ever beat the Thunderwolf guy with the little note on scrap paper stuck to his sword that said 'Wolf Lord'! Now that's being considerate!

**edit**

Just saw this:

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/F/FWchaptertactics.pdf

FW chapter tactics for some alt chapters. Some stuff is simple, like 'Lamenters are chosen from Codex: Blood Angels" and "Sons of Medusa use Iron Hands Chapter Tactics", and some of them get full-custom gospel sounds. What do you guys think of that? I'll admit, my very first reaction was

It's free? ...Really?

In any case, would you be ok with someone using an (appropriately modeled and painted, of course) army with one of the custom rulesets presented there? Would it be cool to include in a tournament setting or no thanks? The only one that seemed a bit much to me on first glance was the Red Scorpions getting free nartheciums on all veteran sergeants.

And the Carcharodons chapter with the little shark on their shoulder pad is pretty silly, but I'm biased.

They don't seem to have any big game changers and I agree with the idea that some are odd. How about those Minotaurs, are they Texas A&M grads or what?

I really think the comp score should be handled by the TO. I would not recommend that for every place, but Travis has my vote. I believe he can be honest and fair. I don't think anyone should be discouraged from bringing any list, there are just too few of us out there and the game is too fun to lose people because we get grumpy about losing or throw a man-trum.

I'll probably try 40K once the new nid book comes out. I think all of my armies need too much updating at the moment!

 disdainful wrote:
We miss ya Lee!

Nothing will ever beat the Thunderwolf guy with the little note on scrap paper stuck to his sword that said 'Wolf Lord'! Now that's being considerate!

**edit**

Just saw this:

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/F/FWchaptertactics.pdf

FW chapter tactics for some alt chapters. Some stuff is simple, like 'Lamenters are chosen from Codex: Blood Angels" and "Sons of Medusa use Iron Hands Chapter Tactics", and some of them get full-custom gospel sounds. What do you guys think of that? I'll admit, my very first reaction was

It's free? ...Really?

In any case, would you be ok with someone using an (appropriately modeled and painted, of course) army with one of the custom rulesets presented there? Would it be cool to include in a tournament setting or no thanks? The only one that seemed a bit much to me on first glance was the Red Scorpions getting free nartheciums on all veteran sergeants.

And the Carcharodons chapter with the little shark on their shoulder pad is pretty silly, but I'm biased.

Those seem relatively tame, along the same lines as what's in the codex tbh so I would be cool with it!