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 Necroshea wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Calgar would out-think Grimnar. And then, afterwards, he'd light up a cigar and talk about how he loves it when a plan comes together.

Just curious, are you thinking of Creed? The cigar and plan reference...

I'd give you a pass for being a youngin' and missing the 80s show reference, but they remade this one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wandre wrote:
What I was speaking on was the OP with Marneus + 9 HG vs Logan + 9 WG (TDA added as mentioned in a few other posts)

Calgar & Friends = 575
Logan & TDA Friends = 712

I should also mention that kitted out with any semblance of intelligence the Wolves would win easily.

So, basically, if spotted nearly 150 extra points, the Wolves can squeak out a victory.

Sounds about right, lol.

Based solely on recent fluff, I would have to say that Calgar would have his guys sit back and watch while he smashed all the SW by himself. Didn't he hold off thousands of orks alone?

It's the Ultramarines, they're smarter, faster, stronger, and overall better than all other marines, just look at their name - it says they are the pinnacle of marine awesomeness.
"What's that, you're a marine? Well, we're not just marines, we're ULTRAmarines."

That said, Logan+another named character seems a bit unfair, and I would imagine in game, this combo would win out.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


If you're using faulty math, sure. Did you even bother reading my post?

The only mistake I made in my math was I gave Calgar a 5+ inv save instead of his 4+ I did take into account his rerolls to wound. The biggest difference is Logan hits on a 3+ with reroll vs Calgars 4+ to hit. That right there is the difference and it more than makes up for Calgars +1 wound. BTW. Logan's axe can act as a P-fist or a frost blade. Which is why I used the P-fist against Calgar.

 Jayden63 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


If you're using faulty math, sure. Did you even bother reading my post?

The only mistake I made in my math was I gave Calgar a 5+ inv save instead of his 4+ I did take into account his rerolls to wound. The biggest difference is Logan hits on a 3+ with reroll vs Calgars 4+ to hit. That right there is the difference and it more than makes up for Calgars +1 wound. BTW. Logan's axe can act as a P-fist or a frost blade. Which is why I used the P-fist against Calgar.

Logan doesn't have rerolls to hit, he rerolls 1's to hit. Frost Blades are +1S, not +2S, hence it wounds Calgar on a 3+, not a 2+. The fact that you think I'm not aware of this suggests to me that you didn't even bother reading my post. You also didn't take Logan's +1 attack for one turn aura into account, which is another miss. Your rounding also misrepresents what's going on.

 Wandre wrote:
What I was speaking on was the OP with Marneus + 9 HG vs Logan + 9 WG (TDA added as mentioned in a few other posts)

Calgar & Friends = 575
Logan & TDA Friends = 712

I should also mention that kitted out with any semblance of intelligence the Wolves would win easily.

But thats Calgar without his TDA or Chapter banner (and who leaves out the chapter banner). But yeah, Arjac is the biggest point break. But turn him back into a normal WG in TDA and you knock 155 points off the SW side of things bringing them back down to 557 in points and the outcome doesn't change much.

As TDA WG can have power axes (just like the HG) and gain a 5+ inv save over the HG. The advantage that the HG have is +1 attack due to BP/power weapon.

8 HG will have 4 attacks (with banner) and kill 7 guys. 8 WG will have 3 attacks (with living legend) and rerolls (with perfered enemy) and kill 10 guys.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


If you're using faulty math, sure. Did you even bother reading my post?

The only mistake I made in my math was I gave Calgar a 5+ inv save instead of his 4+ I did take into account his rerolls to wound. The biggest difference is Logan hits on a 3+ with reroll vs Calgars 4+ to hit. That right there is the difference and it more than makes up for Calgars +1 wound. BTW. Logan's axe can act as a P-fist or a frost blade. Which is why I used the P-fist against Calgar.

Logan doesn't have rerolls to hit, he rerolls 1's to hit. Frost Blades are +1S, not +2S, hence it wounds Calgar on a 3+, not a 2+. The fact that you think I'm not aware of this suggests to me that you didn't even bother reading my post. You also didn't take Logan's +1 attack for one turn aura into account, which is another miss. Your rounding also misrepresents what's going on.

Preferred enemy allows rerolls of 1s to hit and to wound. Since your hitting on 3s your get to reroll half your misses and wounding on 2+ (since he is using the P-fist version of his axe) he rerolls all is misses.

And yes, I round for the most part as its impossible to do .69 wounds on a D6. However, I always round in the same direction for both sides.

 Jayden63 wrote:

 Wandre wrote:
What I was speaking on was the OP with Marneus + 9 HG vs Logan + 9 WG (TDA added as mentioned in a few other posts)

Calgar & Friends = 575
Logan & TDA Friends = 712

I should also mention that kitted out with any semblance of intelligence the Wolves would win easily.

But thats Calgar without his TDA or Chapter banner (and who leaves out the chapter banner). But yeah, Arjac is the biggest point break. But turn him back into a normal WG in TDA and you knock 155 points off the SW side of things bringing them back down to 557 in points and the outcome doesn't change much.

As TDA WG can have power axes (just like the HG) and gain a 5+ inv save over the HG. The advantage that the HG have is +1 attack due to BP/power weapon.

8 HG will have 4 attacks (with banner) and kill 7 guys. 8 WG will have 3 attacks (with living legend) and rerolls (with perfered enemy) and kill 10 guys.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


If you're using faulty math, sure. Did you even bother reading my post?

The only mistake I made in my math was I gave Calgar a 5+ inv save instead of his 4+ I did take into account his rerolls to wound. The biggest difference is Logan hits on a 3+ with reroll vs Calgars 4+ to hit. That right there is the difference and it more than makes up for Calgars +1 wound. BTW. Logan's axe can act as a P-fist or a frost blade. Which is why I used the P-fist against Calgar.

Logan doesn't have rerolls to hit, he rerolls 1's to hit. Frost Blades are +1S, not +2S, hence it wounds Calgar on a 3+, not a 2+. The fact that you think I'm not aware of this suggests to me that you didn't even bother reading my post. You also didn't take Logan's +1 attack for one turn aura into account, which is another miss. Your rounding also misrepresents what's going on.

Preferred enemy allows rerolls of 1s to hit and to wound. Since your hitting on 3s your get to reroll half your misses and wounding on 2+ (since he is using the P-fist version of his axe) he rerolls all is misses.

And yes, I round for the most part as its impossible to do .69 wounds on a D6. However, I always round in the same direction for both sides.

Rerolls is not the same thing as rerolling rolls of 1. Rounding down over several turns messes up the results. The 3+ to wound comment was referring to

 Jayden63 wrote:
Logan would strike first with his frost blade version wounding on a 2+ with rerolls.

which is incorrect. Regardless of that mistake Logan should still be attacking with his Power Fist mode, as illustrated in the (correct) math.

A frost ax confers 2+ S because of the fact that its an ax which gives it 1+ and then its a frost weapon which is another 1+. Logan also has 1 more attack than Calgar and thats in his base line stats. if you include Living legend thats another 1+ to attack add a charge thats 1+ and because its a 1 h weapon you have another 1+ bringing Logan to a grand total of 8 attacks and we don't even need to make the charge we have counter charge. That being said Calgar starts with 4 attacks we will give him the charge so he has 5 then the banner so hes at 6 plus the two fists he only has 7 which means he has one less attack than Logan. The only edge that Calgar has is his one higher wound threshold which is canceled out by logans 1 extra attack and ability to hit on 3+. However Calgars re role to hit is better than Logans but Logans is conferred to his whole unite were as Calgars is a personal trait which gives the wolves an edge. They strike at the same initiative because both of thier weapons are unwieldly so theres no edge there in the end I think it would come down to the role of the dice.

 nolzur wrote:
Based solely on recent fluff, I would have to say that Calgar would have his guys sit back and watch while he smashed all the SW by himself. Didn't he hold off thousands of orks alone?

It's the Ultramarines, they're smarter, faster, stronger, and overall better than all other marines, just look at their name - it says they are the pinnacle of marine awesomeness.
"What's that, you're a marine? Well, we're not just marines, we're ULTRAmarines."

hahahahahahahahahahahahahah!!!!!
kaugh, kaugh
hahahahahahahahahahahhahahahah!!!!

2 things that I dislike about Dakka in one thread.

Rampant hatred for the Ultramarines, and sycophantic obsession with Space Wolves.

MarsNZ wrote:
2 things that I dislike about Dakka in one thread.

Rampant hatred for the Ultramarines, and sycophantic obsession with Space Wolves.

Both of these situations are well warranted, just, and fair. From the bad, biased fluff in the case of the former(I have a pdf and book copy of Codex:SM), and actually good fluff that makes smurfs look like sissys(like bitch-slapping a GK GM) in the latter. Have you really seen any genuine SW player complain how OP the fluff makes them look, and how most smurf players hate Matt Ward's guts?

MarsNZ wrote:
2 things that I dislike about Dakka in one thread.

Rampant hatred for the Ultramarines, and sycophantic obsession with Space Wolves.

Did you even read what that guy wrote....? Let me quote him again ......

 nolzur wrote:
Based solely on recent fluff, I would have to say that Calgar would have his guys sit back and watch while he smashed all the SW by himself. Didn't he hold off thousands of orks alone?
It's the Ultramarines, they're smarter, faster, stronger, and overall better than all other marines, just look at their name - it says they are the pinnacle of marine awesomeness.
"What's that, you're a marine? Well, we're not just marines, we're ULTRAmarines."

That said, Logan+another named character seems a bit unfair, and I would imagine in game, this combo would win out.

This is not just about SW you know that ?

Well I don't know is this a sarcasm or he really thinks that...I understand it as a sarcasam ....
But if this tread was about Dante and his champion vs Calgar and his retinue - this tread would go the same way as this one...


*********

 Eldrad wrote:
A frost ax confers 2+ S because of the fact that its an ax which gives it 1+ and then its a frost weapon which is another 1+. Logan also has 1 more attack than Calgar and thats in his base line stats. if you include Living legend thats another 1+ to attack add a charge thats 1+ and because its a 1 h weapon you have another 1+ bringing Logan to a grand total of 8 attacks and we don't even need to make the charge we have counter charge. That being said Calgar starts with 4 attacks we will give him the charge so he has 5 then the banner so hes at 6 plus the two fists he only has 7 which means he has one less attack than Logan. The only edge that Calgar has is his one higher wound threshold which is canceled out by logans 1 extra attack and ability to hit on 3+. However Calgars re role to hit is better than Logans but Logans is conferred to his whole unite were as Calgars is a personal trait which gives the wolves an edge. They strike at the same initiative because both of thier weapons are unwieldly so theres no edge there in the end I think it would come down to the role of the dice.

So much wrong in one post that I almost don't even know where to start. Logan does not have a Frost Axe, the Ade Morkai can be used as either a Frost Blade (S5 AP3) or a Power Fist. Logan doesn't have 2 CCWs, meaning his max attacks are 7, not 8. Calgar rerolls to wound, not to hit. At least you're right in that it'll come down to the dice.

I was enjoying this thread when it was just a bunch of friendly ribbing. Someone should do a thread and have a bracket style knockout with all the current leaders of each Chapter SM and CSM and someone can do the math to see who would come out on top. That would be something cool to read.

Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote:
I was enjoying this thread when it was just a bunch of friendly ribbing. Someone should do a thread and have a bracket style knockout with all the current leaders of each Chapter SM and CSM and someone can do the math to see who would come out on top. That would be something cool to read.

It would be if people could:

A) read rules
B) read stats
C) do math

With this thread as proof, many can't

A clash between Space Puppies and Smurf fanboys...lets settle this once and for all and say Angron slapped both their primarchs about

Russ killed 2 Primarchs and broke the back of a third in what reality does he have anything to fear from angron?

The Emperor bless his name created russ to be his guard dog, he and his sons were made to kill traitors with a level of ruthlessness no other legion possessed.

 ace101 wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:
2 things that I dislike about Dakka in one thread.

Rampant hatred for the Ultramarines, and sycophantic obsession with Space Wolves.

Both of these situations are well warranted, just, and fair. From the bad, biased fluff in the case of the former(I have a pdf and book copy of Codex:SM), and actually good fluff that makes smurfs look like sissys(like bitch-slapping a GK GM) in the latter. Have you really seen any genuine SW player complain how OP the fluff makes them look, and how most smurf players hate Matt Ward's guts?

Why is it that the ridiculous fluff but lackluster rules for Ultramarines gets scorn, but the ridiculous fluff and even more ridiculous rules for SW gets praise? Both have absolutely absurd fluff pieces but only one has undercosted units and extremely powerful units that fly directly in the face of the fluff (Seriously, SW have THE best psykers and heavy weapon squads in the game, period, for an army who's fluff is all about getting into close combat and hating on psykers).

hobojebus wrote:
Russ killed 2 Primarchs and broke the back of a third in what reality does he have anything to fear from angron?

The Emperor bless his name created russ to be his guard dog, he and his sons were made to kill traitors with a level of ruthlessness no other legion possessed.

Whoa whoa. Russ killed nobody. That's all conjecture.

However, I think what he was referring to was the events described in Betrayer where Angryon on Russ fight. Angryon wins the duel, though it is implied that Russ was never trying to "win", and instead get Angryon to submit, so he was fighting handicapped.

MarsNZ wrote:
2 things that I dislike about Dakka in one thread.

Rampant hatred for the Ultramarines, and sycophantic obsession with Space Wolves.

and the UM still get 40% of the votes in an unfair fight. I must say I'm actually pretty impressed they garnered that many votes

Well, it comes down to fluff versus crunch.

Crunch says the Space Wolves have the advantage, simply because the scenario listed gives them a huge advantage points-wise. it also assumes that the two forces would be standing only "inches" apart to begin with.

Fluff tells you that Calgar is far too crafty and smart to engage Grimnar in some straight up close-combat brawl, and would out-fight the Space Wolves with better tactics and weaponry suited for defeating them.

Tiarna Fuilteach wrote:
A clash between Space Puppies and Smurf fanboys...lets settle this once and for all and say Angron slapped both their primarchs about

Congratulations - you are the first who misinterpreted the book,I owe certain somebody a drink...
In the end who spared who's life? Angron is retarde*, you know that....?

And those who think that Calgar can outsmart Logan, you do understand Logan was selected as commander of the IoM forces against Abby and his guys in certain black crusade !?
Yeah ,over Dante, Calgar, Azreael...so....hmmmm.....rabid viking werewolf stereotype doesn't stand too well....

Btw I like Calgar as stoic ultramarine, warhero, badass but some bad fluff about him just pokes my eyes...

 DarthMarko wrote:
[

And those who think that Calgar can outsmart Logan, you do understand Logan was selected as commander of the IoM forces against Abby and his guys in certain black crusade !?
Yeah ,over Dante, Calgar, Azreael...so....hmmmm.....rabid viking werewolf stereotype doesn't stand too well....

This is the kind of sycophancy that I mean, weird, maybe its a Croatian thing with the Space Wolves. Calgar wasn't even at the 13th Black Crusade, the Ultramarines were represented by an honor company and that's all. Dante wasn't there either, . Also if Creed hadn't held off the initial invasion there would have been nothing left for Logan to come and protect.

Yeah it's Cro - thingy You can search loopholes, but facts remain - he is brilliant military commander who led IoM agains biggest treat to mankind (in that time)....
So Cagar outsmarting him is very questionable...Now I'm just correcting stereotype about Logan...
And I like UM, just don't like stupid fluff about Calgar....Well we know who is to blame for that my New Zealand friend...

P.S.
You know that there are lot of SW haters on this forum as well ? So this kind of VS threads,show only who is more popular...IMHO

 DarthMarko wrote:

Tiarna Fuilteach wrote:
A clash between Space Puppies and Smurf fanboys...lets settle this once and for all and say Angron slapped both their primarchs about

Congratulations - you are the first who misinterpreted the book,I owe certain somebody a drink...
In the end who spared who's life? Angron is retarde*, you know that....?

And those who think that Calgar can outsmart Logan, you do understand Logan was selected as commander of the IoM forces against Abby and his guys in certain black crusade !?
Yeah ,over Dante, Calgar, Azreael...so....hmmmm.....rabid viking werewolf stereotype doesn't stand too well....

Btw I like Calgar as stoic ultramarine, warhero, badass but some bad fluff about him just pokes my eyes...

Russ spared his life but I don't agree that Russ was fighting handicapped and thats why angron won the duel....if angron was trying to kill Russ then would he have let him crawl away? The fact that the Space Wolves fought like a legion was a point well made in the book but doesn't in any way shape or form alter the facts that when angron and russ went toe to toe angron was left standing

Simply put current rules for Grimnar and Calgar has it in Calgar's favour. He has an AP2 storm bolter. That weapon alone swings it in his favour. As he can shoot down WG but they can't shoot down the HG (no AP2 weapons at range)

Calgar + full HG with Calgar Armour upgrade 625
Grimnar + 10 WG and Arjac upgrade 625....

Calgar and HG all have 2+ saves and AP2 in close combat (except the champ who is AP3) as well as bolters and AP2 Storm Bolter from Calgar.

Grimnar, Arjac and WG have 2+ saves for Arjac and Grimnar and 3+ saves for the WG. Close combat is Axe/Powerfist, TH/SS and BP/CCW (not that scary WG). At Range we have a single Storm Bolter and 8 Bolt Pistols....

Simply put is this starts at range its Calgar all the way. If it starts in Close Combat it's still the honour guard purely cause they ALL have AP2, yes they are striking last but Calgar can use his Power Sword and lessen the number of WG before they strike. Reducing the number of saves they will end up taking and hence reducing the number of casualties before all the Power Axe death kicks in...

And for 5 points a model, the Wolf Guard don't take combi plasmas at all? Why are the Wolf Guard just leaving their entire armory at home? That is part of what makes Wolf Guard so much better than Honor Guard. They have the tools to gear up to take on anything.

16 plasma shots (with rerolls of 1s) is 12 AP2 wounds inflicted. So either Calgar is dead + 4 honor guard or all the honor guard is dead and Calgar has taken 2 wounds.

And thats what wolf guard shooting at range can do for you. And its really easy to get off too as the unit has access to a drop pod.

This whole exercise just boils down to who get to do what first. And what points are you willing to spend to get it done. Fluff wise it would be a blood bath as each respective party is the best of the best for their particular Chapter.

 JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:
Simply put current rules for Grimnar and Calgar has it in Calgar's favour. He has an AP2 storm bolter. That weapon alone swings it in his favour. As he can shoot down WG but they can't shoot down the HG (no AP2 weapons at range)

Calgar + full HG with Calgar Armour upgrade 625
Grimnar + 10 WG and Arjac upgrade 625....

Calgar and HG all have 2+ saves and AP2 in close combat (except the champ who is AP3) as well as bolters and AP2 Storm Bolter from Calgar.

Grimnar, Arjac and WG have 2+ saves for Arjac and Grimnar and 3+ saves for the WG. Close combat is Axe/Powerfist, TH/SS and BP/CCW (not that scary WG). At Range we have a single Storm Bolter and 8 Bolt Pistols....

Simply put is this starts at range its Calgar all the way. If it starts in Close Combat it's still the honour guard purely cause they ALL have AP2, yes they are striking last but Calgar can use his Power Sword and lessen the number of WG before they strike. Reducing the number of saves they will end up taking and hence reducing the number of casualties before all the Power Axe death kicks in...

Let's not forget the ability for honor guard to take a banner for +1 attack for everyone. Taking one less honor guard and doing that effectively seals the deal.

And before anyone starts complaining, the Op's post makes no mention of the wolf guard in terminator armor.

Don't forget that Arjac is a 188 points all on his own. So if you leave him out and go with just another wolf guard then the HG company comes in with the 165 point advantage. I can do a lot of damage with those 165 points in extra wolfguard wargear.

 juraigamer wrote:


Let's not forget the ability for honor guard to take a banner for +1 attack for everyone. Taking one less honor guard and doing that effectively seals the deal.

And before anyone starts complaining, the Op's post makes no mention of the wolf guard in terminator armor.

The OP's post didn't mention they didn't they didn't have it, or really what if any options were taken on either side other than specific characters being present.

Tiarna Fuilteach wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:

Tiarna Fuilteach wrote:
A clash between Space Puppies and Smurf fanboys...lets settle this once and for all and say Angron slapped both their primarchs about

Congratulations - you are the first who misinterpreted the book,I owe certain somebody a drink...
In the end who spared who's life? Angron is retarde*, you know that....?

And those who think that Calgar can outsmart Logan, you do understand Logan was selected as commander of the IoM forces against Abby and his guys in certain black crusade !?
Yeah ,over Dante, Calgar, Azreael...so....hmmmm.....rabid viking werewolf stereotype doesn't stand too well....

Btw I like Calgar as stoic ultramarine, warhero, badass but some bad fluff about him just pokes my eyes...

Russ spared his life but I don't agree that Russ was fighting handicapped and thats why angron won the duel....if angron was trying to kill Russ then would he have let him crawl away? The fact that the Space Wolves fought like a legion was a point well made in the book but doesn't in any way shape or form alter the facts that when angron and russ went toe to toe angron was left standing

It's staded 3-4 times in the book - even Angron admits to Lorgar that....If Empero ordered Russ to kill Angron he would have (one way or another).
Now we are making the same discussion like those two have?

But this is not even the point - when Russ crawled he was in the firing circle,so Russ would have won by a sheer cunnning on the battlefield, and there is a simple lesson in this - what bugs me is that he destroyed Magnus for much lesser things, and Angron he spares WTF!?