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 DarthMarko wrote:

Tiarna Fuilteach wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:

Tiarna Fuilteach wrote:
A clash between Space Puppies and Smurf fanboys...lets settle this once and for all and say Angron slapped both their primarchs about

Congratulations - you are the first who misinterpreted the book,I owe certain somebody a drink...
In the end who spared who's life? Angron is retarde*, you know that....?

And those who think that Calgar can outsmart Logan, you do understand Logan was selected as commander of the IoM forces against Abby and his guys in certain black crusade !?
Yeah ,over Dante, Calgar, Azreael...so....hmmmm.....rabid viking werewolf stereotype doesn't stand too well....

Btw I like Calgar as stoic ultramarine, warhero, badass but some bad fluff about him just pokes my eyes...

Russ spared his life but I don't agree that Russ was fighting handicapped and thats why angron won the duel....if angron was trying to kill Russ then would he have let him crawl away? The fact that the Space Wolves fought like a legion was a point well made in the book but doesn't in any way shape or form alter the facts that when angron and russ went toe to toe angron was left standing

It's staded 3-4 times in the book - even Angron admits to Lorgar that....If Empero ordered Russ to kill Angron he would have (one way or another).
Now we are making the same discussion like those two have?

Spoiler:

Angron blinked, the dull edge of surprise coming into his eyes. ‘What revelation should I have come to? I learned he wasn’t allowed to kill me. I learned he postured in the hope of bringing me back to Terra, collared and submissive to his whims.’

But this is not even the point - when Russ crawled he was in the firing circle,so Russ would have won by a sheer cunnning on the battlefield, and there is a simple lesson in this - what bugs me is that he destroyed Magnus for much lesser things, and Angron he spares WTF!?

I have no problem agreeing with you in this mate but that's one of the drawbacks of different authors writing about the same person

And I don't doubt that angron would have died if russ was there to kill him all I'm saying is that angron would have killed russ if they were fighting each other...before a space wolf barrage tore him apart

Well I disagree, and I' ll try to be impartial...Russ was there to tow his arse to Terra - (he failed in that,,Angron was a too tough sob)...
If Russ went for a kill he would have his arse,even after Angron killed him or not...we can only speculate who would went first....
Btw Russ was standing you know, after a fight which ended in a "brawl"- and Angron was taunting him to draw a blade and that they hug in blood 4real (Angron picked up his axe, and SW did let him do that )....
Anyway in arena 8/10 Angron, on the battlefield 8/10 Russ...IMHO - cheers mate

 Eldrad wrote:
In a battle between Calgar with a 9 man honor guard squad and 1 Chapter champion vs Logan Grimnar accompanied by 9 wolf guard and Arjac Rockfist, who do you think would come out on top?

This is the situation described by the OP, its a Ultramarine win, end of discussion. As much as I prefer the Space Wolves to the Ultramarines, the HG out does WG with no upgrades. Now to the speculative side, if it were a 625pts match up between the two its anybodies guess. Or a rock, paper, scissors thing. But thats not what the OP asked, he asked who would win between the above match up. We have an answer it would be Calgar.

 JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:

 Eldrad wrote:
In a battle between Calgar with a 9 man honor guard squad and 1 Chapter champion vs Logan Grimnar accompanied by 9 wolf guard and Arjac Rockfist, who do you think would come out on top?

This is the situation described by the OP, its a Ultramarine win, end of discussion. As much as I prefer the Space Wolves to the Ultramarines, the HG out does WG with no upgrades. Now to the speculative side, if it were a 625pts match up between the two its anybodies guess. Or a rock, paper, scissors thing. But thats not what the OP asked, he asked who would win between the above match up. We have an answer it would be Calgar.

Where does he specify no upgrades?

 JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:

 Eldrad wrote:
In a battle between Calgar with a 9 man honor guard squad and 1 Chapter champion vs Logan Grimnar accompanied by 9 wolf guard and Arjac Rockfist, who do you think would come out on top?

This is the situation described by the OP, its a Ultramarine win, end of discussion. As much as I prefer the Space Wolves to the Ultramarines, the HG out does WG with no upgrades. Now to the speculative side, if it were a 625pts match up between the two its anybodies guess. Or a rock, paper, scissors thing. But thats not what the OP asked, he asked who would win between the above match up. We have an answer it would be Calgar.

Yeah, without upgrades its an obvious outcome. The base stats of HG and WG are the same, but then we give the HG both a 2+ save and a power weapon and think that Arjac alone is worth the points difference. Arjac may be a true beast in combat, but he is not worth 9 wounds of 2+ saves and power weapons.

 DarthMarko wrote:


But this is not even the point - when Russ crawled he was in the firing circle,so Russ would have won by a sheer cunnning on the battlefield, and there is a simple lesson in this - what bugs me is that he destroyed Magnus for much lesser things, and Angron he spares WTF!?

I can answer that.

Space wolves are actually traitors.

They ride and tame xenos, use magic, killed inquisitors and grey knights as well as are prone to mutation of a certain kind. They are also annoying.

I voted for Calgar just to troll all SW fanboys

Come to think of it, wolves have something traitor-ish about them..

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Well, it comes down to fluff versus crunch.

Crunch says the Space Wolves have the advantage, simply because the scenario listed gives them a huge advantage points-wise. it also assumes that the two forces would be standing only "inches" apart to begin with.

Fluff tells you that Calgar is far too crafty and smart to engage Grimnar in some straight up close-combat brawl, and would out-fight the Space Wolves with better tactics and weaponry suited for defeating them.

Frankly, fluff tells us that he beats him in the brawl too.

 thenoobbomb wrote:
I voted for Calgar just to troll all SW fanboys

Come to think of it, wolves have something traitor-ish about them..

No, they are bad writen James Bonds who are chaos renegade loyalists or dead Alphariuses


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 juraigamer wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:


But this is not even the point - when Russ crawled he was in the firing circle,so Russ would have won by a sheer cunnning on the battlefield, and there is a simple lesson in this - what bugs me is that he destroyed Magnus for much lesser things, and Angron he spares WTF!?

I can answer that.

Space wolves are actually traitors.

They ride and tame xenos, use magic, killed inquisitors and grey knights as well as are prone to mutation of a certain kind. They are also annoying.

You forgot to add "IMHO" but thank you for that very intelligent answer


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Well, it comes down to fluff versus crunch.

Crunch says the Space Wolves have the advantage, simply because the scenario listed gives them a huge advantage points-wise. it also assumes that the two forces would be standing only "inches" apart to begin with.

Fluff tells you that Calgar is far too crafty and smart to engage Grimnar in some straight up close-combat brawl, and would out-fight the Space Wolves with better tactics and weaponry suited for defeating them.

Frankly, fluff tells us that he beats him in the brawl too.

Maybe only in Wards head....

@DarthMarko don't respond to hateful comments, It only lowers you to their level of semi intelligence...
You know that I love SW (just not so much as you,obviously) and I think Arjac alone would be enough to dispose Calgar...


I sent you a PM....

 Necroshea wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Calgar would out-think Grimnar. And then, afterwards, he'd light up a cigar and talk about how he loves it when a plan comes together.

Just curious, are you thinking of Creed? The cigar and plan reference...

it was creed... he just dressed up as calgar and got some space marines to follow him. Creed's gotta amuse himself somehow

Jefffar wrote:

 JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:

 Eldrad wrote:
In a battle between Calgar with a 9 man honor guard squad and 1 Chapter champion vs Logan Grimnar accompanied by 9 wolf guard and Arjac Rockfist, who do you think would come out on top?

This is the situation described by the OP, its a Ultramarine win, end of discussion. As much as I prefer the Space Wolves to the Ultramarines, the HG out does WG with no upgrades. Now to the speculative side, if it were a 625pts match up between the two its anybodies guess. Or a rock, paper, scissors thing. But thats not what the OP asked, he asked who would win between the above match up. We have an answer it would be Calgar.

Where does he specify no upgrades?

Arjac is an upgrade, and if the WG have any other upgrades its no longer a balanced fight, and then if its not a balanced fight there is no room for debate as which ever side has the points advantage already has a distinct advantage before any kind of battles take place. You'll also note I have a speculative point there, as in 625 points to spend each... but that just becomes a rock, paper, scissors situation. You take plasma, I take storm shields etc etc. Split hairs if you must, but the simple answer is Calgar. Complicated answer... anybodies guess...

 DarthMarko wrote:
Maybe only in Wards head....

See, but this is the thing: Ward is a dictator of canon.

It isn't pretty, and as a Necron fan, I can say it really fething sucks. I'd like to just act like the emocron codex did not happen, but see, the 5e Necron codex is going to influence and dictate future Necron-related stories (Though I can count at the guys at FFG to adequately bridge the old and new fluff together into something boss).

Calgar punching an Avatar of Khaine is canon, it happened, lol. As did fighting M'kar apparently, but I don't know the context of those fights as I have not read the Ultramarines series.

And really, is Calgar killing an Avatar of Khaine in combat all that bad? At least this was a hard-fought struggle where Calgar had to work for a victory, other than some horrible fluff which followed him.

And, though I can't recall if you, personally, did this, the dissonance is bizarre. Like, people seethe with rage at Calgar punching out an Avatar of Khaine, but then go on to argue that Logan beheaded a GK Grandmaster, who => Greater Daemons, therefore Logan > Greater Daemons (This ignores a few important details of context, but let's ignore that for the moment). Why is Calgar achieving a feat like that bad, but Logan doing so badass?

That's the thing, GK grandmasters can kill greater deamons, but that doesn't mean always Logan > Greater deamon...
IIRC GK are special forces against chaos- against regular astartes I will always put my money on any first/second founding chapter or their chaptermaster...
Skarbrand (you know, a guy who dented Khornes armor) gets "halved" from a single blow of Dante's S4 power axe aided by Matt Ward's purple prose ( which is btw officially just a rumor, and just a exaggerated tale )
Calgar slaping a war God...
Draigo.....well you know.....

I'm telling you man - wait for the Dark Angels codex...
If you can buy that...best of luck...

 DarthMarko wrote:
That's the thing, GK grandmasters can kill greater deamons, but that doesn't mean always Logan > Greater deamon...
IIRC GK are special forces against chaos- against regular astartes I will always put my money on any first/second founding chapter or their chaptermaster...
Skarbrand (you know, a guy who dented Khornes armor) gets "halved" from a single blow of Dante's S4 power axe aided by Matt Ward's purple prose ( which is btw officially just a rumor, and just a exaggerated tale )
Calgar slaping a war God...
Draigo.....well you know.....

I'm telling you man - wait for the Dark Angels codex...
If you can buy that...best of luck...

But thing is, Grey Knights have specific shields and weapons against Daemons that they can use, and typically, as shown in TEG, take them down through a coordinated effort, wielding their psychic powers as one entity.



Grey Knights are still generally superior to normal Marines, IMHO. The physical enhancements of the Marine are backed by each being at least a fairly powerful psyker (In some, like Hyperion's case, an enormously powerful psyker). They are the Imperium's most elite fighting force, not merely a cripplingly overspecialized to fight Daemons force.

To be fair, Dante cutting Skarbrand the feth in half at least used to be on GW's very own site, and Skarbrand is much weaker now than he was when he chinked Khorne's armour (Also Dante didn't fight him in the Warp).

Calgar had to really struggle against that war god.

Yeah, Draigo has no excuses at all.

lolbuy. The very notion that I would willingly give my money to even GW, much less Ward specifically, at this point is nothing short of hilarious.

Would it be possible to discuss the antics of two imaginary people without starting in on each other, just because you disagree as to who is best?

Thank you.

All im saying Astartes killing Astartes - ok (except Sevatar killing 50 DA while he was going for the Lion's head )

Astartes killing demigods - NO

Dante article was writen by a Andrew Kenrick who wrote well..." his article". In the codex it is just a myth....fortunately...
Anyway, If they continue with that "regular character beating top tier creatures" story, I'm going back to d&d 4sure...or warhammer fantasy.(don't really know how things are there)...

P.S. I' meant, buying as a story.... (not giving money to GW )

 DarthMarko wrote:
All im saying Astartes killing Astartes - ok (except Sevatar killing 50 DA while he was going for the Lion's head )

Astartes killing demigods - NO

Spoiler:

"Nothing, on any of the many battlefields of the war-ridden 41st Millennium, can match the fury and fighting prowess of the Greater Daemons of Khorne, the dreaded Bloodthirsters. No one, not even the Greater Daemons of the other Dark Gods, can hope to defeat a Bloodthirster at close quarters. Nowhere, in an entire galaxy of worlds at war can a deadlier opponent be found by glory seeking fools. "

2nd edition Chaos Codex

"Only the Primarchs of old were truly equal in power"

Dante article was writen by a Andrew Kenrick who wrote well..." his article". In the codex it is just a myth....fortunately...
Anyway, If they continue with that "regular character beating top tier creatures" story, I'm going back to d&d 4sure...or warhammer fantasy.(don't really know how things are there)...

P.S. I' meant, buying as a story.... (not giving money to GW )

Which of the HH book has Sevatar fighting DA? I don't have more than half of them

"prince of crows" ADB...

 DarthMarko wrote:
All im saying Astartes killing Astartes - ok (except Sevatar killing 50 DA while he was going for the Lion's head )

Astartes killing demigods - NO

Spoiler:

"Nothing, on any of the many battlefields of the war-ridden 41st Millennium, can match the fury and fighting prowess of the Greater Daemons of Khorne, the dreaded Bloodthirsters. No one, not even the Greater Daemons of the other Dark Gods, can hope to defeat a Bloodthirster at close quarters. Nowhere, in an entire galaxy of worlds at war can a deadlier opponent be found by glory seeking fools. "

2nd edition Chaos Codex

"Only the Primarchs of old were truly equal in power"

Dante article was writen by a Andrew Kenrick who wrote well..." his article". In the codex it is just a myth....fortunately...
Anyway, If they continue with that "regular character beating top tier creatures" story, I'm going back to d&d 4sure...or warhammer fantasy.(don't really know how things are there)...

P.S. I' meant, buying as a story.... (not giving money to GW )

Fantasy has uber-characters. Tyrion has thrown down with a Keeper of Secrets and won. That's Army Book established fluff. He's also the off spring of a character who fought and beat three greater daemons at once (with his dragon taking the bloodthirster down). That's the only official story I know of a in game character going solo (in close combat) with a Greater Daemon and winning. Some of the other's might have them, I just haven't read about it.

Aenarion was wielding the Sword of Khaine against four exalted greater daemons, and died afterwards.

Agreed that fluff shouldn't depict Marine characters beating on greater daemons, unless they're Draigo in which case it's okay because he's Chuck Norris's middle testicle.

 DarthMarko wrote:
All im saying Astartes killing Astartes - ok (except Sevatar killing 50 DA while he was going for the Lion's head )

Astartes killing demigods - NO

Spoiler:

"Nothing, on any of the many battlefields of the war-ridden 41st Millennium, can match the fury and fighting prowess of the Greater Daemons of Khorne, the dreaded Bloodthirsters. No one, not even the Greater Daemons of the other Dark Gods, can hope to defeat a Bloodthirster at close quarters. Nowhere, in an entire galaxy of worlds at war can a deadlier opponent be found by glory seeking fools. "

2nd edition Chaos Codex

"Only the Primarchs of old were truly equal in power"

Dante article was writen by a Andrew Kenrick who wrote well..." his article". In the codex it is just a myth....fortunately...
Anyway, If they continue with that "regular character beating top tier creatures" story, I'm going back to d&d 4sure...or warhammer fantasy.(don't really know how things are there)...

P.S. I' meant, buying as a story.... (not giving money to GW )

You should try the 40k tabletop RPGs if you get a chance. I'm playing in a Dark Heresy campaign at the moment. They're really good.

 DarthMarko wrote:

 juraigamer wrote:


Space wolves are actually traitors.

They ride and tame xenos, use magic, killed inquisitors and grey knights as well as are prone to mutation of a certain kind. They are also annoying.

You forgot to add "IMHO" but thank you for that very intelligent answer

I didn't. In the opinion of puritan inquisitors and generally the imperium as a whole, consorting with xenos and usage of magic/sorcery marks you for death. What I merely stated was fact.

^Then by your logic, BA would be the first to go....And I dont know if fenrisian wolves are considered xenos (they were in the pre-heresy era,you know), or that SW use sorcery,and
only true fact is that they bug puritan inquisitors which did tried to screw them,and we all know how it ended,,,,


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:
All im saying Astartes killing Astartes - ok (except Sevatar killing 50 DA while he was going for the Lion's head )

Astartes killing demigods - NO

Spoiler:

"Nothing, on any of the many battlefields of the war-ridden 41st Millennium, can match the fury and fighting prowess of the Greater Daemons of Khorne, the dreaded Bloodthirsters. No one, not even the Greater Daemons of the other Dark Gods, can hope to defeat a Bloodthirster at close quarters. Nowhere, in an entire galaxy of worlds at war can a deadlier opponent be found by glory seeking fools. "

2nd edition Chaos Codex

"Only the Primarchs of old were truly equal in power"

Dante article was writen by a Andrew Kenrick who wrote well..." his article". In the codex it is just a myth....fortunately...
Anyway, If they continue with that "regular character beating top tier creatures" story, I'm going back to d&d 4sure...or warhammer fantasy.(don't really know how things are there)...

P.S. I' meant, buying as a story.... (not giving money to GW )

You should try the 40k tabletop RPGs if you get a chance. I'm playing in a Dark Heresy campaign at the moment. They're really good.

Will try it...ty

Fenrisian Wolves are not xenos at all.

 DarthMarko wrote:
All im saying Astartes killing Astartes - ok (except Sevatar killing 50 DA while he was going for the Lion's head )

Astartes killing demigods - NO

Spoiler:

"Nothing, on any of the many battlefields of the war-ridden 41st Millennium, can match the fury and fighting prowess of the Greater Daemons of Khorne, the dreaded Bloodthirsters. No one, not even the Greater Daemons of the other Dark Gods, can hope to defeat a Bloodthirster at close quarters. Nowhere, in an entire galaxy of worlds at war can a deadlier opponent be found by glory seeking fools. "

2nd edition Chaos Codex

"Only the Primarchs of old were truly equal in power"

Dante article was writen by a Andrew Kenrick who wrote well..." his article". In the codex it is just a myth....fortunately...
Anyway, If they continue with that "regular character beating top tier creatures" story, I'm going back to d&d 4sure...or warhammer fantasy.(don't really know how things are there)...

P.S. I' meant, buying as a story.... (not giving money to GW )

Well, here's the thing: It wasn't just Calgar. Go back and re-read the story. It's Calgar, a number of termies and a butt load of marines. It's being pounded by power fists, thunderhammers and heavy weapons. Calgar gets the jump on the Avatar then almost dies, but thanks to the relic weapons that the Guantlets of Ultramar are, he manages to live and deal the killing blow. Calgar isn't performing even close to a level that Draigo or other marines of fame are claimed to be on. The fact that it takes pretty much everything the marines have is what makes the story a bit bad ass and makes it a better fit to the Ultramarines. It's not personal glory, it's the chapter functioning in a tactical manner focusing down an otherwise near invincible opponent. Internet hyperbole has made this story in to "Calgar herp da derped the Avatar" as it has with EVERYTHING Ultramarine related.

On the SW's being traitors thing...

Really if you think about it, both the Blood Angels and Space Wolves could easily be convicted by an Inquisitor for Heresy and destroyed. But, they are far too good at their job to be destroyed.

Also, I have a feeling the IoM just doesn't want to admit that more Astartes are turning into traitors.

That and all the chapters that are most divergent from the Codex Astartes tend to be the most loyal, like the Black Templars

You know, I hate how around every topic now adays ends with 'and then the Space Wolves came (in a non sexual way, that is - not suggesting anything here ) and owned everyon e with the wolfsword of wolfclaw's wolfguard wolfbanes!'
Ugh. Let's get back to the math hammer about Grimnar vs. Calgar, eh?

Both using their power fist equivalents.

Logan hits on 3+ with re-rolls of ones, and wounds on 2+ with re-rolls of ones. Calgar saves on a 4+.

Calgar hits on 4+, and then wounds on a 2+ with re-rolls. Grimnar saves on a 4+.

Both have 5 attacks base 6 when charging, Grimnar gets up to 7 if he uses his high king ability and can get +1 attack even if charged if he can pass a leadership test. Grimnar has 3 wounds, Calgar has 4.

Working back, Grimnar needs to inflict 8 wounds on average, Calgar needs to inflict 6, wounding on 2+ with re-rolls we can reasonably assume they will wound with every hit.
Grimnar needs 8 hits, Calgar needs 6. Having 3+ to hit, with re-rolls of one, Grimnar needs 10-11 attacks to get that number of hits, on 4+ Calgar needs 12.

Since Grimnar has 5 attacks base (with the ability to get +1 attack with counter/charging and the high king rule), he can get the requisite 10-11 attacks in two combat rounds.

Even if he charges Calgar can only get the requisite 12 attacks in three combat rounds.

I could do a full bionomial analysis of the fight, but the above averages give a reasonable picture. Grimnar will win because of his superior "to-hit" ability.

Ok you haven't taken into effect the Honour Guard and the Wolf Guard, nor shooting. Sure enough a duel is the easiest way to match up the two characters, but there is more than just that aspect to each of the characters and their units. If we take the example provided by the OP at face value (which is actually an equal force of 625pts a piece) the weight of AP2 cc attacks from the HG tips the balance in their favour. With shooting its again weighted in their favour with Calgar's AP2 Storm Bolter. Character to character it is weighted in Grimnar's favour.

So likely results are that WG wiped out, Arjac and Grimnar dead, Calgar dead and HG sustained casualties.