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DILL3NGER wrote:
even if Manchu made me cry for calling me dumb

Your tears give me strength! In all seriousness, I don't think you're dumb (and did not call you dumb) but I think the idea that the Lion and the Loyalist DA are actually traitors is very dumb indeed.

DILL3NGER wrote:
I refuse to believe that the lion was whiter than white and Luther was blacker than black. The truth lies I between somewhere.

Fortunately, no one is saying either of those things. We generally agree that the Lion was a prideful man. And that Luther was not a ravening Chaos worshipper. Our disagreement is that Jonson's pride made him a traitor to the Imperium and that Luther's regret made him a loyalist.

 Manchu wrote:

DILL3NGER wrote:
even if Manchu made me cry for calling me dumb

Your tears give me strength! In all seriousness, I don't think you're dumb (and did not call you dumb) but I think the idea that the Lion and the Loyalist DA are actually traitors is very dumb indeed

See this is where we’ve gone wrong.

I never said that the DA were or are traitor (I did say this in an earlier post), my intention was to say that there is a possibility that the Lion was thinking about siding with Horus during the HH and that their current DA beliefs about the Fallen are built on a lie. It’s clearly stated that The Lion was very indecisive when it came to siding during the heresy. I think it’s in the book ‘The Primarchs’ he confronts the Night Lords? And doesn’t obliterate them when he understands their intent which was very much in his gift. If memory serves me right he even knocked the head off one of his closest brothers for disagreeing with him. This is not the actions of a man that is sure of his intentions.

Now I go back to my point. Luther being sent back to Caliban to ‘Oversee recruitment’ is a massive bitch slap to his brother. There must be more to this story. I truly believe that The Lion had mistrust in Luther’s loyalties should he decide to side with Horus.

Upon his return to Caliban I think the Lions paranoia has gotten the better of him and to then destroy the only person that could sow doubt was the only action. The whole thing about Luther being tainted by Chaos isn’t exactly 100% due to the fact that supposedly the Lion and Luther eradicated the entire ‘Monsters’ from the planet when the Lion rose to power.

What makes the Dark Angels so interesting and special (best flavour of all SM in my opinion) is doubt. While raw and mundane facts imho clearly state loyal lion/treacherous Luther, the point where it starts to get interesting is that INDEED PERHAPS IT MIGHT BE OTHER WAY, because in the end it is not a question of who acted against whom, but a question of personal motivation... the facts interpreted the other way round make sense. You only have to question the Lion's personal motivation for his acts. Wasn't there a thought of the day that thinking is the road to doubt, and doubt is the road to heresy?
The theme of the Dark Angels is doubt. To be precise, it is self-doubt. Psychologically, their seclusive and secretive ways tell their big secret in even bigger letters. THEY ARE NOT SURE OF THEIR LOYALTY THEMSELVES! The small words "yeah... but, what if..." have taken roots in their souls, hearts and minds. They are not sure themselves about the loyalty of the Lion, not sure about the loyalty of the Fallen ones, not sure about the loyalty of their acolytes, not sure about their own loyalty. They "interrogate" the captured Fallen ones with such vigor, because there is only ONE answer they can stand to hear. They try to silence everyone who might utter a doubt against their loyalty not because they want to hide half of their brooderhood fell. They try to silence everyone who might utter a doubt against their loyalty, because there is this small whispering in their mind they cannot wipe out: "yeagh... but... what if..."

So in the end I believe the moment we find out the final truth will be the moment the Dark Angels are just another chapter with robed men and a monastery fortress. Let's norish that small flame of doubt, it's what makes the shadows deeper beneath those monks' robes.

(The second paragraph of this post is my personal psychological analysis of the Angels, not confirmed by quotable text passages. Yet Lionell Johnson's poem "Dark Angel" is about the same whispering treacherous voice you cannot silence...)

 Hruotland wrote:
What makes the Dark Angels so interesting and special (best flavour of all SM in my opinion) is doubt. While raw and mundane facts imho clearly state loyal lion/treacherous Luther, the point where it starts to get interesting is that INDEED PERHAPS IT MIGHT BE OTHER WAY, because in the end it is not a question of who acted against whom, but a question of personal motivation... the facts interpreted the other way round make sense. You only have to question the Lion's personal motivation for his acts. Wasn't there a thought of the day that thinking is the road to doubt, and doubt is the road to heresy?
The theme of the Dark Angels is doubt. To be precise, it is self-doubt. Psychologically, their seclusive and secretive ways tell their big secret in even bigger letters. THEY ARE NOT SURE OF THEIR LOYALTY THEMSELVES! The small words "yeah... but, what if..." have taken roots in their souls, hearts and minds. They are not sure themselves about the loyalty of the Lion, not sure about the loyalty of the Fallen ones, not sure about the loyalty of their acolytes, not sure about their own loyalty. They "interrogate" the captured Fallen ones with such vigor, because there is only ONE answer they can stand to hear. They try to silence everyone who might utter a doubt against their loyalty not because they want to hide half of their brooderhood fell. They try to silence everyone who might utter a doubt against their loyalty, because there is this small whispering in their mind they cannot wipe out: "yeagh... but... what if..."

So in the end I believe the moment we find out the final truth will be the moment the Dark Angels are just another chapter with robed men and a monastery fortress. Let's norish that small flame of doubt, it's what makes the shadows deeper beneath those monks' robes.

(The second paragraph of this post is my personal psychological analysis of the Angels, not confirmed by quotable text passages. Yet Lionell Johnson's poem "Dark Angel" is about the same whispering treacherous voice you cannot silence...)

This, this, this.

You sir are spot on.

DILL3NGER wrote:

 Hruotland wrote:
What makes the Dark Angels so interesting and special (best flavour of all SM in my opinion) is doubt. While raw and mundane facts imho clearly state loyal lion/treacherous Luther, the point where it starts to get interesting is that INDEED PERHAPS IT MIGHT BE OTHER WAY, because in the end it is not a question of who acted against whom, but a question of personal motivation... the facts interpreted the other way round make sense. You only have to question the Lion's personal motivation for his acts. Wasn't there a thought of the day that thinking is the road to doubt, and doubt is the road to heresy?
The theme of the Dark Angels is doubt. To be precise, it is self-doubt. Psychologically, their seclusive and secretive ways tell their big secret in even bigger letters. THEY ARE NOT SURE OF THEIR LOYALTY THEMSELVES! The small words "yeah... but, what if..." have taken roots in their souls, hearts and minds. They are not sure themselves about the loyalty of the Lion, not sure about the loyalty of the Fallen ones, not sure about the loyalty of their acolytes, not sure about their own loyalty. They "interrogate" the captured Fallen ones with such vigor, because there is only ONE answer they can stand to hear. They try to silence everyone who might utter a doubt against their loyalty not because they want to hide half of their brooderhood fell. They try to silence everyone who might utter a doubt against their loyalty, because there is this small whispering in their mind they cannot wipe out: "yeagh... but... what if..."

So in the end I believe the moment we find out the final truth will be the moment the Dark Angels are just another chapter with robed men and a monastery fortress. Let's norish that small flame of doubt, it's what makes the shadows deeper beneath those monks' robes.

(The second paragraph of this post is my personal psychological analysis of the Angels, not confirmed by quotable text passages. Yet Lionell Johnson's poem "Dark Angel" is about the same whispering treacherous voice you cannot silence...)

This, this, this.

You sir are spot on.

i have to agree with dill3nger. you probably have got it!!
it does make sense, and i thank you!!!
even the Lion actions could be put down to self-doubt, does he stay loyal to his distant father or does he break away?
the lion did want to become next warmaster, so the temptation to take more power was there at least.

 Hruotland wrote:
The theme of the Dark Angels is doubt. To be precise, it is self-doubt.

No, absolutely wrong. Read the fluff. The theme of the DA is secret shame. If you know anything about the single-minded way that they pursue the Fallen, you know they are not about doubt.

Shame can be brought on by self-doubt, and often is

love where you went with this hruotland!

 xcasex wrote:
Shame can be brought on by self-doubt

Sure. Back on topic, however, the DA seem to have no doubts as to their own loyalty or the treachery of the Fallen or their obligation to track the Fallen down.

What is the actual level of knowledge from say the front line legions to the supreme grand master as to who knows what?

I'm reading Ravenwing at the moment and it states that the average legionnaire is told that Horus killed the Lion. It also comes across that they are not even aware of the fallen. At what level are you indoctrinated into the mysteries of the DA?

Is there any proof that the supreme grand master azreal is even aware of 'All' of the facts? Lexicanum states that the watchers in the dark whisked off the lion to the deepest part of the rock. Has anyone actually seen him since?

DILL3NGER wrote:
What is the actual level of knowledge from say the front line legions to the supreme grand master as to who knows what?

Line trooper = knows as much as an Ultramarine.
Veteran = knows there are problems to be solved
Ravenwing = Knows not everything is as it seems and sometimes the mission is all that counts.
Deathwing = knows there are fallen angels and they need their help...
Inner circle = knows who these fallen are and how to identify them.
Supreme Grand Master = knows most of the story.

DILL3NGER wrote:

I'm reading Ravenwing at the moment and it states that the average legionnaire is told that Horus killed the Lion.
It also comes across that they are not even aware of the fallen.

WTF Thorpe???? " Horus killed the Lion. "

Isn't it preferrable to have a story that cannot be disproven so easily? Like " the Lion is gone since Caliban was blown up " , who would doubt the loss of a Primarch in such event?

DILL3NGER wrote:

Is there any proof that the supreme grand master azreal is even aware of 'All' of the facts? Lexicanum states that the watchers in the dark whisked off the lion to the deepest part of the rock. Has anyone actually seen him since?

Azrael knowns most of the facts, i guess. All of them? Maybe only the Lion himself...
And no. no one has seen the Lion since.
Except said watchers, who met him on Caliban early, who also acted as advisors in his time leading the Legion.
Still one of them carries a helmet for Azrael and the real question would be : your chapter master runs around with a small hooded figure in his tow, and youre supposed to be xenophobic, how does this turn out on a daily basis?

Manchu wrote:

xcasex wrote:
Shame can be brought on by self-doubt

Sure. Back on topic, however, the DA seem to have no doubts as to their own loyalty or the treachery of the Fallen or their obligation to track the Fallen down.

Yes, to the outside. They SEEM to have no doubts. Yet all this only begins to make sense if you postulate the one person/faction they have to persuade of their loyalty to the emperor are they themselves. The loyalists and the fallen have split long ago, and they hunt the Fallen down with all needs. If they were sure of their own and their primarch's loyalty they would not have to make so much hush-hush. They could openly declare "parts of our legion went the wrong path, but see, we do everything to undo them, for we, the rest, are loyal and steadfast as should be". Their enormous efforts to hide everything about it are a big confession there at least MIGHT be something wrong with themselves. The Fallen are a threat to their own loyalty, and not just because they fell. They mirror something of the loyalists what they fear. otherwise they just could declare them outcasts and demand a chance to prove their unshaken loyalty.

Well, in the end on the meta-level it might be a case of the beholder finding more meaning in a work of art than the artist ever meant to express. Like the Dada movement, or the Southpark series. But the fact the writers might not have intended it does not mean this level of meaning is not inherent to it. Even if the writers did not apply that level of interpretation by will, it is still applied, because on a subconscious level everyone understands how the psyche works.

I haven't read much on this (other than what is in the lexicanum), but since history is written by the victors most of what we see is going to have a Pro-Lion bias. Unless there is a novel specifically talking about Lion's thoughts and actions durring the HH we must be content to speculate. I like having a bit of the unknown it allows for flexibility when coming up with back story for your army.

*Edit* Side question: Are the Dark Angels the only loyalist chapter to change their colors after the HH?

History is written by the victors doesn't apply because we're not talking about history.

As was mentioned in another thread recently, the readers can look at this from an out-of-universe perspective. The "present time" of the Horus Heresy is forever captured on the pages of the novels. The novels are not "histories" written subsequent to the "actual events." There were no "actual events" outside of the what is written on the page of the novel. And what is written on the page of the novel is that Jonson was not a traitor.

This is really the simplest question of all time.

@Thatedguy, i think that the dark angels may have been the only chapter to change their colours after the heresy.

@manchu they havent actually got to the caliban war yet in the HH series, so we dont really know, and even though he did end up fighting for the imperium, was he playing a long game? was he considering turning? we dont know so we debate, discuss and talk about it. we're not going to get an answer until GW actually say, but in the mean time, we discuss.

it is interesting how people think fallen=chaos marines, but most shown dont actually worship chaos, and are still rather loyal.

The Fallen are not loyal actually. I don't know what you've been reading.

Also, the HH series hasn't gotten to the Siege of Terra yet but I don't see any lame "debates" about Horus changing his mind and tearfully apologizing to daddy.

...and risking to sound like some dumb ignorant fg:

No, this is not the question at all.

The question was not "was the Lion a traitor" but "the unforgiven or the fallen, who are really the loyalists?" And my answer to that is: "sounds to me that the Angels themselves are not so sure about!" At least the Angels of the "Present". Without doubt the Unforgiven want to be recognized as loyalísts by all means. Jonsons loyalty doesn't matter in this point, but what the Inner Circle makes from it. After ten millenia at least it should have been possible for the seed of doubt and mistrust to bloom. But imagine the chaos (in a classic sense) reigning after the Fall: the homeworld scattered, the legion torn in two, shards and splinters everywhere.
Don't you think that many an Angel would have insecurities what is right and what is wrong? Particularly considering that lies and deception are a probate tool of Chaos in order to separate its targets from the herd? For sure at least there will be single Fallen ones totally sure of their own loyalty and that the Lion was the traitor.

Maybe this is not written in the HH novels. But it is inherent in the picture that is painted of the Unforgiven, a picture that is older than the novels you cite. It is a picture from a time I keep as my precious and everything that follows will be bent until it breaks or fits into that continuum.
Go on, opt for the "IT IS WRITTEN, NO MORE MYSTERY" version. believe in the Dark Angels being just another , quite dull chapter, somewhere between Black Templars and Robed Whiners, created by authors slowly killing the last interesting bits of grimdark universe by enlightening every small secret. Or accept the possibility of the "Enshrouded Truth After All That Turmoil", keep the fascinating vagueness of the pre-HH aera by happily fitting the novel facts into the rest of the world so they actually make sense. This is, and has always been, the way of the Fanboy. YOU ARE NO FANBOY! IN YOUR MIND THERE NEVER HAVE BEEN SQUATS UNTIL THEY WERE MENTIONED IN THE 6 ED. RULEBOOK! YOU SIR ARE A BAD MAN!

p.s. for one cannot be sure on the inturweb, there is always someone square enough to feel offended: the last part written in capitals was satirical and not at all meant as an attack, but as a humorous comment.

You are saying that loyalist DA of M41 doubt that they are loyal because they have been faithfully hunting their traitorous brethren for 10,000 years?

I guess I just don't see your point.

 Manchu wrote:
The Fallen are not loyal actually. I don't know what you've been reading.

Also, the HH series hasn't gotten to the Siege of Terra yet but I don't see any lame "debates" about Horus changing his mind and tearfully apologizing to daddy.

That must be as he is dying but how the hell it can happen in a space of mere seconds is debatable as only Empy would see it and execute Horus at the spot, and as long as the Primarches doesn't go down faster than hookers like LL HH I'm sated(of course this is not a cruel joke LL, just plain fun and a twisted admiration as I really adore what that man writes). At least that would be how I would have written it, having Empy executing his favorite son son Horus knowing he would want it exposing throat.

 Chaos Emperor wrote:
@Thatedguy, i think that the dark angels may have been the only chapter to change their colours after the heresy.

@manchu they havent actually got to the caliban war yet in the HH series, so we dont really know, and even though he did end up fighting for the imperium, was he playing a long game? was he considering turning? we dont know so we debate, discuss and talk about it. we're not going to get an answer until GW actually say, but in the mean time, we discuss.

We actually have gotten to the cause of the Caliban War. It was in "Fallen Angels".

Luther and the Dark Angels on Caliban were preparing to fight the Imperial presence on the planet, effectively seceding from the Imperium.

it is interesting how people think fallen=chaos marines, but most shown dont actually worship chaos, and are still rather loyal.

There is no "most". The Fallen are individuals, with a few warbands scattered throughout their numbers. Or at least that's how they have been for a long time. The upcoming Codex might change things dramatically or keep the status quo, we do not know yet.

@ Manchu

No I say they believe that the fundaments of their loyalty might be questionable. They hunt their Fallen because it is the right thing to do, but the secrecy they try to maintain about it is because they fear this question might be answered against them if any of the Fallen fall into the hands of e.g. the inquisition.

That doesn't make any sense.

The DA are secretive about the Fallen because they are honor-obsessed space knights. They don't want it getting around that half their Legion rebelled against their Primarch, and so also the Emperor considering that the Lion was indisputably loyal to the Emperor, around the time of the Horus Heresy.

They are not worried about this because they secretly think they themselves are traitors. They don't want their Primarch and their history and their traditions and their identity shamed because of Luther and the traitors who followed him.

Completely agreed Manchu. Plus they have a fanatical hatred of anyone that escaped. They are one of the more fanatical chapters you can come across. And with fanaticism comes secrecy as they can't be really brought to confess anything. They are utter fanatics and believe anyone who knows anything about their secret shame shall be brought to death. That's the average Dark Angel for ya. 100X and you have an average Interrogator Chaplain. I don't need to go further.

...That doesn't make sense. If there is nothing to shame about you don't need to shame.
But the true difference seems to be, you search for action heroes, I search for drama, for character studies. I suppose if we both watch "apocalypse now" we see two different movies.

Every culture has it set of shame Hruot, the Dark Angels is one of secrecy and secret shames. It might not make sense to you, but it makes sense to me at least. But then again understanding isn't always a good thing.

 Hruotland wrote:
...That doesn't make sense. If there is nothing to shame about you don't need to shame.

A father who commits crimes shames his children. It is not because the children are at fault.

 Hruotland wrote:
But the true difference seems to be, you search for action heroes

No, the true difference is that I'm reading the fluff and you're making up your own.

Here's a quick question about the Fallen. They've been loose for some 10,000 years now. Should they have died by now from.... Oh I don't know...... Old age?

Nurgle wanted a piece of the puzzle. The warp is fizzle, which basically means you can be your own grandfather. And other things I don't wanna know.

DILL3NGER wrote:
Should they have died by now from.... Oh I don't know...... Old age?

(1) Warp effects
(2) hiding in the Webway
(3) SM have no expiration date

And that's just off the top of my head.

 Manchu wrote:

DILL3NGER wrote:
Should they have died by now from.... Oh I don't know...... Old age?

(1) Warp effects
(2) hiding in the Webway
(3) SM have no expiration date

And that's just off the top of my head.

The "original" background on the Fallen was that the Chaos Gods scattered them through not only space, but time. Last I saw that had not been changed.

That's much better than anything I came up with after not thinking about it for more than a few seconds.