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 Manchu wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
The Dark Angels have the dubious distinction of turning on their own chapter mates. so great is the need for secrecy.

Even this is not true. Think of the Iron Hands and the Sons of Medusa. Chapter War happens (or is only very narrowly avoided) from time to time.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
I know sometimes I'm not clear so please try to converse with me instead of just being disrespectful.

My bad and apologies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Basically it's a contest between the ones that believes the words of Fallen Angels, vs the ones that believes the word of the Unforgiven. I basically took it to be how they have chronicled it. And the Fallen Angels ain't really reliable witnesses at best, but sure some might have been suffering under the lies of Luther. And thought they were defending in the name of the Emperor, but Nurgle had a vested interest in Caliban and Luther. So in the end they were traitors, and the Unforgiven just want a clean slate and that can't happen unless they hunt down each and everyone of the Fallen. That's pretty much etched in stone.

Yep them's the facts. Any thing else is fanfiction. The Unforgiven can make for great tragic characters ... but they're still traitors. I encounter the same issue with people talking about the Thousand Sons. Magnus was NOT loyal. But people will say again and again and again it wasn't his fault, he just wanted to be loyal, he didn't have it coming. None of that fits with anything published, however. The fact is that Magnus chose sorcery over his father. Yes, he's sympathetic and fascinating but he's still a traitor. The Lion and the DA have the exact opposite problem. They are loyalists who simply aren't easy to sympathize with. As Beaviz wisely pointed out, they're good but not nice. That's how good is in 40k: NOT nice, not sympathetic, not really recognizably good according to IRL standards. But just because they are so unlikable, whereas maybe someone like Magnus is very likable (he's one of my very favorite characters), they're still loyal and from the Imperial perspective they are still the "good guys."

We ex-staffers know the truth - i was told after my interview in Bath (uk) when i was offered a place in GW - but i cant tell you cos you dont have the tattoo of the (pre sundering - pre-broken - spear/sword hybrid)deathwing on your right upper arm (many inner circle staff from the mid 90 to 00s do - seriously - ask around...)

i can only say Manchu isnt on the right track... sorry bud

my fav army is my black n red (with some newer vvv dark green) darkangels - played along side my black with white hand printed/painted deathwing - from the deathwing/genestealer comic & original 1990s short novel (the originals - every time) - and i say spear/sword hybrid - we believe it was a spear at one point in the da progression of its background history and became the sword of monks n monestery lore later - check out the vintage art image in this months white dwarf - a tactical sgt is ramming his honour spear into the ground - showing he WILL NOT retreat beyond this point (NA Indian practice in combat). and another interesting bit - deathwing = historical and current NA Indian word/name.


--- i will add a bit more - every newbie marine scout who has joined n moved up the ranks since the fall is a good guy thru n thru - but those vets and inner circle guys - tut tut tut... they know what they did, and who they did it to, and what those wronged guys in black did in response, and what they then did to those guys, and why those guys then called out for help n did a runner.... - those old inner guys need to find the ones who know all these truths, and remove them from play. very 'wounded knee' in its setting..... the truth is whatever the victors say it is eh........

Because every staffer from the 90s was told the direction the game's background would go...

Sorry man, but what you were told then is not how the background is now.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Because every staffer from the 90s was told the direction the game's background would go...

Sorry man, but what you were told then is not how the background is now.

i know, just wanted to tell the TRUTH to the newbies who would otherwise never know..... curse gws obsession with monk robes!!!

It occurs to me that despite being among the most successful Legions, the Dark Angels owe little of their success to Lion.

The Calaban exiles were banished after only one campaign, and the events of Fallen Angels occur a mere 50 years later, by which point the Heresy had begun.

 Omegus wrote:
It occurs to me that despite being among the most successful Legions, the Dark Angels owe little of their success to Lion.

The Calaban exiles were banished after only one campaign, and the events of Fallen Angels occur a mere 50 years later, by which point the Heresy had begun.

2nd edition codex stipulates that the fall of Calibran occurred after the heresy had finished.

And? The Heresy lasted only a handful of years, by which time the Great Crusade had stalled.

 Doctadeth wrote:

 Omegus wrote:
It occurs to me that despite being among the most successful Legions, the Dark Angels owe little of their success to Lion.

The Calaban exiles were banished after only one campaign, and the events of Fallen Angels occur a mere 50 years later, by which point the Heresy had begun.

2nd edition codex stipulates that the fall of Caliban occurred after the heresy had finished.

Codex Dark Angels 6th ed places the fall of Caliban in the "scouring" after the Heresy. ( page 8 ).
Right at their return from Terra, as it is was and will be.

Again, I don't see how that is relevant. Luther and the other Calaban warriors were banished to Calaban (ostensibly to oversee recruitment) about 50 years before the Heresy began. They were sent back after only a single short campaign, which was the first campaign the Dark Angels launched after being re-united with their Primarch.

So again, most of the First Legion's successes can be attributed to their Legion Masters. And most of the success of the knightly orders of Calaban can be attributed to Luther holding it all together while Lion hogged the glory.

Lion is basically the most extraneous Primarch of them all.

Legion masters? Wouldn't that be The Lion? He's resposible for the Legion's success or lack thereof.

Yeah, I'm not following Omegus on this one either.

Yeah I emigrated to Huh?-land on this one.

 Chaos Emperor wrote:
as the title says, are the dark angels secret traitors?
i know that the they are supposed to be loyal but are they really?

Who knows...? People who dig too much into their exploits tend to meet their ends in unfortunate "accidents".

Some have suggested that Alpha Legion is actually working against Chaos, just undercover. Maybe DA are doing the reverse.

Just like to point out:
Russ himself pushed 2 chapters over the edge and engaged in combat with them:
-The Thousand Sons (Book 2)
-The Dark Angels (Lion and the Wolf)
Good on ya Mr Wolficans it's like everytime he engages a Loyalist Legion in battle, the legion ends up to a horrible fate, what's up with that?
As for OP:
I will compare the Lion to Sam off the Gone Series (Awsome Novels). Both think of themselves as leaders and dictators, ruling their people fairly, but then shrugging off all responsibility in times of peace to their counter-parts (Edilio for Sam and Luther for Lion) but when going to war their are among the best warriors of their people and great leaders in wartime, ready to crush the enemy, and leave their counter-parts behind.
The counter-parts get jealous that they are treated as slaves or bearers of news and not out by their best friends side.
Also another comparison between the two, they will say their loyal, but when questioned on it and ordered to do it, they will not take the crap and take advice from their own council (a tradition for the DA I guess) on where and when to kill the enemy.

If we take HH books to be canon and written "in time" (no historical distortion) then this is cut and dry. The Lion is loyal, Luther is a traitor, and Cypher could go either way. At the end of Fallen Angels we learn that the Lion lead a portion of his expedition to a forgotten forge world to secure siege engines that Horus ordered constructed roughly 50 years previous. After capturing these engines Perturabo and the Iron Warriors show up, apparently still loyal. The Lion and Perturabo have a talk and the Lion lays out his plans for after Horus's defeat, asking Perturabo for his backing in the Lion's push to become the new Warmaster. Of course Perturabo turns and hands the hard won engines over to Horus leading to the siege of Terra.

The Lion almost stopped the Heresy in its tracks with less than a Chapter's worth of Space Marines.

The only question in my mind is did the Lion leave Cypher to protect/stop Luther, did Cypher contribute to Luther's fall, or somewhere in between. It is strongly implied that the Lion understood that Caliban was tainted and that Cypher was the only other living person with this knowledge, having been a member of the Order of the Wolf.

"There is only the Emperor, none is worthy on inheriting that mantle." - Lion El'Jonson, The Primarchs.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Legion masters? Wouldn't that be The Lion? He's resposible for the Legion's success or lack thereof.

Uh no. The Legion Masters were the Space Marines who led the Legions before they were re-united with their Primarchs. One example is the dreadnought guy in Betrayer. He led the War Hounds before Angron came along.

My point is pretty simple.

Crusade lasted about two centuries, with the Dark Angels being literally the first Legion. The Lion wasn't found until ~50 years before the Heresy. So his contribution to the Dark Angels' accomplishments only encompasses maybe a quarter of the time they spent crusading.

 Just Dave wrote:
"There is only the Emperor, none is worthy on inheriting that mantle." - Lion El'Jonson, The Primarchs.

Nice - maybe that's why he didn't like Guiliman so much...

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Just Dave wrote:
"There is only the Emperor, none is worthy on inheriting that mantle." - Lion El'Jonson, The Primarchs.

Nice - maybe that's why he didn't like Guiliman so much...

Yeah, there's another quote about him no sooner bending his knee to Guilliman, than to Horus and his belief they're both idiots...

 Omegus wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Legion masters? Wouldn't that be The Lion? He's resposible for the Legion's success or lack thereof.

Uh no. The Legion Masters were the Space Marines who led the Legions before they were re-united with their Primarchs. One example is the dreadnought guy in Betrayer. He led the War Hounds before Angron came along.

My point is pretty simple.

Crusade lasted about two centuries, with the Dark Angels being literally the first Legion. The Lion wasn't found until ~50 years before the Heresy. So his contribution to the Dark Angels' accomplishments only encompasses maybe a quarter of the time they spent crusading.

I see what you're talking about. I think The Lion was one of the first Primarchs found wasn't he? How much time each Primarch spent actually leading his Legion could be another interesting thread.

Yeah, those would be some pretty ... let's say interpretive calculations indeed ...

Well Omegus said 50 years so I assume he got that from somewhere. We do know Horus was found first (right?) and Alpharius last.

I'd like to know where the ~50 came from as well. At the end of Fallen Angels the Lion is discussing the siege engines he has just "acquired" and says that Horus ordered them constructed 50 years ago and he read that in a battle report. To me that says the Lion had been on crusade much longer than 50 years. Also they reference a few waves of new Astartes being brought up on Caliban and going from novice to battle brother, even in M31, takes a fair amount of time

The beginning of Fallen Angels, Zahariel states that Lion has let them languish on Caliban for half a century,

Much appreciated, I spend so much time harping on the end I guess I should pay more attention to the beginning