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I played an 1850 game against a good friend last night, and I put my CSM list up against his Eldar/Dark Eldar list. I had:

A Chaos Lord with MoS on a steed, Burning Brand, LC, SoC. He ran with 13 CSM with MoS, including a flamer, a melta, and the Champ with dual LC. These guys and the MoS Lord were outflanking.

I had a second Chaos Lord with MoN, a power axe and a plasma pistol. He had six Plague Marines with him, including two PG and the Champ had a power axe and a plasma pistol. This group hung back to protect the objective (Emperor's Will).

I had five Terminators, MoN, with a power axe, two power swords, a power fist, a Reaper Autocannon, and the Champ had a LC and his normal combi-bolter. These guys deepstruck in near my opponent's objective.

I had a squad of 20 shooty Cultists, including two heavy stubbers and the Champ with a shotgun. These guys moved up a little.

I had a squad of 20 assault Cultists, including two flamers. These guys sat on the objective, behind (mostly) line of sight-blocking terrain.

I had a unit of five Havocs with MoN, with four autocannons and the Champ had dual LC. These guys sat on the second floor of a ruins and shot stuff.

I had three Oblits with MoN. They sat and shot stuff.

And I had a Heldrake with the Baleflamer.

I didn't get tabled, but I suspect it was only because I called it in the middle of turn five, before my turn. I was totally crushed in nearly a demoralizing way, and hadn't done much damage to his army at all.

I don't have a great record of his army list (because I don't know jack about stupid space elves) but I'll try to touch on the highlights.

He had Eldrad ('natch) and that guy could Doom, Fortune, Misfortune, Prescience, Foreboding, Premisfortune, Postprescience... I couldn't keep track of it all, but it mainly meant almost all of his guys got to re-roll everything and frequently he could make me re-roll successful armor saves. *sigh* He also had some other psykers that I didn't know, but they were pointy. One had antlers, and I called him Bullwinkle.

He ran 10 Wraithguard. These guys are Toughness 6, 3+ save (which I think they got to re-roll because of magic) and they have AP2 cannons that wound on 2+. And they were scoring. Guess where they sat? On the objective, of course.

He ran a Wraithlord. I had never played against one of these before. Strength 10, Toughness 8. Really. Three wounds. For 155 points. Really?

He had a couple of Venoms, one full of guys, and one not. These died right away, and were really the only successes I had during the game.

He had two units of three Deldar Jet Bikes. I couldn't really do anything to them, either.

He had three Warwalkers, which I had gone up against before. I did eventually kill one, but not before several turns of them unloading their glitter cannons or flicker shooters or whatever elf bullsh!t allowed him to throw handfuls of dice at me.

He had a unit of Harlequins, which got in my face and killed my Warlord, but many of them eventually died. Not all of them, though.

Laslty, he had a guy named The Baron who was a Dark Eldar guy and rode a flying wing like the Green Goblin from Spiderman. He had a 2+ Invulnerable save, which he got to re-roll. Read that again. Really? That guy sat in his deathstar with the Eldrad and the Bullwinkle and the Wraithguard and sucked up ALL THE SHOTS.

In turn one, I lost an Oblit and two of my Autocannons. I wrecked both of his Venoms.

Turn two his Warwalkers outflanked, and his Harlies got into it with my 20 shooty Cultists, killing them all. My Slaanesh steed Lord and his 13 friends came in, as did the Baleflamer Heldrake. Baleflamer maybe killed one Wraithguard.

Turn three his other jetbikes came in. Other Oblit died due to handfuls of dice from the Warwalkers, Wraithguard killed a bunch of the 13 CSM (AP2, wounds on 2+, remember). My Terminators came in but I realized that I couldn't charge his Wraithguard because they would get to Overwatch at full ballistic skill (again, moar elfin magic) and their AP2 cannons that wound on 2+ would be suicide. The Heldrake killed some Deldar Warriors.

Turn four saw my last Oblit die (from two Gets Hot! rolls on a single rapid fire shot against the oncoming Wraithlord), my Warlord die, his Wraithlord could see one Cultist through a window, sitting on my objective. He was able to assault this lone Cultist, I had to Challenge with my Champ, he killed the Champ (obviously), I lost the combat, broke, and he cut down the rest of the 19 Cultists through a hole in the wall. The Heldrake killed a Warwalker.

Shortly after that, I gave up. It was late, and I didn't have anything to hurt his Wraithlord, which was standing on my objective. My Plague Marines and MoN Chaos Lord could have tried to charge the Wraithlord and kill him, but my opponent had Slay the Warlord and Linebreaker (stupid jetbikes) and all I had was First Blood.

I have won a few games with this codex, I'll admit. Maybe three, tops. But at this point, I'd really, really rather go back to the last codex. I miss my Daemon Weapons. I miss my Cult troops as actual troops. I miss my Daemon Princes. The Heldrake's okay, but at this point, that's the only bright spot I honestly see.

So please tell me how to fix my problem. Tell me I'm stupid for cursing this new codex and wanting to sell my army. Against synergy like this, I have no idea what to do.

Sorry for the long post, if you indeed got this far.

 atomsmasher wrote:
I played an 1850 game against a good friend last night, and I put my CSM list up against his Eldar/Dark Eldar list. I had:
A Chaos Lord with MoS on a steed, Burning Brand, LC, SoC. He ran with 13 CSM with MoS, including a flamer, a melta, and the Champ with dual LC. These guys and the MoS Lord were outflanking.
I had a second Chaos Lord with MoN, a power axe and a plasma pistol. He had six Plague Marines with him, including two PG and the Champ had a power axe and a plasma pistol. This group hung back to protect the objective (Emperor's Will).
I had five Terminators, MoN, with a power axe, two power swords, a power fist, a Reaper Autocannon, and the Champ had a LC and his normal combi-bolter. These guys deepstruck in near my opponent's objective.
I had a squad of 20 shooty Cultists, including two heavy stubbers and the Champ with a shotgun. These guys moved up a little.
I had a squad of 20 assault Cultists, including two flamers. These guys sat on the objective, behind (mostly) line of sight-blocking terrain.
I had a unit of five Havocs with MoN, with four autocannons and the Champ had dual LC. These guys sat on the second floor of a ruins and shot stuff.
I had three Oblits with MoN. They sat and shot stuff.
And I had a Heldrake with the Baleflamer.

so you had a Lord on a steed with brand and all with 13 CSM and a dual LC champ(WAYYY too many points) outflanking. These guys show up on one of the long board edges and move 6" in. They then can shoot just a few shots in and barely get to midfield. Then next turn the move another 6 and can assault an average of 7 for a great total of 19" in from the LONG board edge? Umm that threatens nothing and you are spending 400 points that is very ignoreable. You also are putting your very effective burning brand and chaos lord on something that cant do anything turn one, and cant do much turn 2 or 3.
Just because you can outflank doesnt mean you should

Next look at all the MoN you have. DE ignore MoN in shooting and DE dont care too much about it either. You spend a lot of points and ran into the army that counters that.

Now your have plasma pistols, PP are bad against marines(cost too much) but against eldar they are truely a waste. Bolt pistols wound on 3+ and ignore most armor saves eldar have. 15 points to improve that to 2+ isnt worth it.

Terminators: termitnators are ok, but they arent really all that good against DE as they pack lots of AP2. If you could have gotten them into combat with the wraithguard you could have done well though.

 atomsmasher wrote:

I had a unit of five Havocs with MoN, with four autocannons and the Champ had dual LC. These guys sat on the second floor of a ruins and shot stuff.

so your 115 point backfiend dakka platform had 30 points of extra power weapons on him that are completely unnessisary.





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 atomsmasher wrote:


He had Eldrad ('natch) and that guy could Doom, Fortune, Misfortune, Prescience, Foreboding, Premisfortune, Postprescience... I couldn't keep track of it all, but it mainly meant almost all of his guys got to re-roll everything and frequently he could make me re-roll successful armor saves. *sigh* He also had some other psykers that I didn't know, but they were pointy. One had antlers, and I called him Bullwinkle.
He ran 10 Wraithguard. These guys are Toughness 6, 3+ save (which I think they got to re-roll because of magic) and they have AP2 cannons that wound on 2+. And they were scoring. Guess where they sat? On the objective, of course.
He ran a Wraithlord. I had never played against one of these before. Strength 10, Toughness 8. Really. Three wounds. For 155 points. Really?
He had a couple of Venoms, one full of guys, and one not. These died right away, and were really the only successes I had during the game.
He had two units of three Deldar Jet Bikes. I couldn't really do anything to them, either.
He had three Warwalkers, which I had gone up against before. I did eventually kill one, but not before several turns of them unloading their glitter cannons or flicker shooters or whatever elf bullsh!t allowed him to throw handfuls of dice at me.
He had a unit of Harlequins, which got in my face and killed my Warlord, but many of them eventually died. Not all of them, though.
Laslty, he had a guy named The Baron who was a Dark Eldar guy and rode a flying wing like the Green Goblin from Spiderman. He had a 2+ Invulnerable save, which he got to re-roll. Read that again. Really? That guy sat in his deathstar with the Eldrad and the Bullwinkle and the Wraithguard and sucked up ALL THE SHOTS.

Eldrad has to take either rulebook powers OR his stock powers. So he cannot have all those powers. It is possible he had 2 farseers though.

Wraithguard cost 35 points each. They only have a 12" shooting range and no power weapons. If you had gotten your terminators in without getting shot up they likely would have sat there all game unable to kill them.

Wraithlords are like dreadnaughts, but Str5 can hurt them(takes str6 to hurt a dread). Dreads cost less. No one thinks dreads are OP.

Warwalkers put out an obsene amount of dakka, as do venoms. Both are AV10 2 hull points and open topped. They die faster than amost anything, you have to shoot them and kill them immidiately.

Harlequins. T3 and a 5++ save, that is all for probably costing 22 ppm. They have a good cover save, but you had a heldrake, why didnt you torch them with your baleflamer. You could have killed almost all of them in one pass.

Yes the baron has a 2++, yes it can be rerollable if he joins a fortuned eldar unit. He doesnt have a power weapon, is T3, and has 2 wounds. Generally if the eldar player fortunes something you should shoot other things in their army.

Don't sell your army, man! ( Or at least, if you do, sell it to me at a bargain.)

The Chaos Codex isn't that bad. I think there are some things you could do with your list to get the most of your army, though.

Consider putting the lord on the steed with a group of spawn or bikers. Right now you're not really taking advantage of his faster movement speed, which could help immensely against the equally fast/faster Eldar.

Wraithlords suffer from a number of flaws: they're slow, they're so damn tall that it's almost impossible to get cover with them, they have no invulnerable save, and they have very few attacks. If you can't spare the lascannon shots to kill them, tarpit them with something that has a decent invulnerable save. That's rather hard to come by in our codex (we don't have wyches, after all), but it's the best I can think of.

Also, assaulty cultists are really only good if you bring a character to lead them. I would have slapped the MoN Chaos Lord onto the assaulty cultists and let him bring the hurt to the enemy while giving the cultists fearless. (As an aside, never expect shooty cultists to actually do anything besides hold down an objective in the backfield. I would have advanced with your plague marines to provide a more unified front instead.)

As for all the horrible elfin magic he kept throwing at you, I have bad news. We have no rune staff equivalent like the goddamn Spehss Wulfs, so we don't really have a way of shutting those blessings down that he keeps throwing on himself. The maledictions can be countered by your own psyker, so consider taking a sorcerer with a respectable mastery level instead. Sorcerer's are great anyway, they can really bring a lot to the table with the biomancy discipline.

Wraithguard suffer from a huge flaw: they have no invulnerable save. Take advantage of this, douse them in plasma cannons before they get in range of you. If they're out of cover, they're dead. Can't re-roll a save you don't have, you elven bastards.

That's about all the suggestions I have. I'm sure someone with a more impressive tactical acumen will step in to fill in the gaps/correct me, but until then, I hope my advice helps!

Signed,
A fellow Chaos player

P.S. My noise marines would LOVE the option of taking a glitter cannon.

First off, he can't mix book and codex psyker powers. So I hope he wasn't doing that.

Secondly, if you see warwalkers, they must die first, or the guy casting spells on them must die. It's that simple. If your list can't make one of these units die, you will lose. Scatterlasers are deadly to everything not AV 13 or AV 14. Guided scatterlasers will even torch flying monstrous creatures if they get enough shots.

Personally, with meqs, I would never use two HQs at 1850. However, if you can get monstrous flyers in HQ, I would consider it. Monstrous flyers go straight for warwalkers and hope you get there.

The achilles heel to wraithguard is their range. Their range sucks. My BA lists usually just hammer them with auto/las preds and MM attack bikes.

It is important to pay attention to what is fortuned and either a) shoot them with something that doesn't allow a save or b) shoot something else.

All this being said, you have the kind of list the Eldar love to see. You have limited ability to shoot back at them. Eldar and especially dark Eldar crumple if you can hit back with a lot of shooting. Obviously this is less true for the fortuned units, but he can only do that so much.

You have to pay very close attention during the Eldar psychic phase and not get frustrated with them. The Eldar are truly an exercise in target priority and selection.


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I'm pretty certain that my BA list could handle the posted Eldar nonsense, and if the now-lowly BA can hurt them, I'm sure C:SM has builds that can handle them as well.

Depending on how they hide the farseers, it can be effective to dakka down their squad with small arms and then fire insta-gib weapons at the farseer till he drops. My friend insists on using guardian squads and I do this constantly to him. Without farseer support, the Eldar really crumple quickly.

 atomsmasher wrote:

In turn one, I lost an Oblit and two of my Autocannons. I wrecked both of his Venoms.

Turn two his Warwalkers outflanked, and his Harlies got into it with my 20 shooty Cultists, killing them all. My Slaanesh steed Lord and his 13 friends came in, as did the Baleflamer Heldrake. Baleflamer maybe killed one Wraithguard.

Turn three his other jetbikes came in. Other Oblit died due to handfuls of dice from the Warwalkers, Wraithguard killed a bunch of the 13 CSM (AP2, wounds on 2+, remember). My Terminators came in but I realized that I couldn't charge his Wraithguard because they would get to Overwatch at full ballistic skill (again, moar elfin magic) and their AP2 cannons that wound on 2+ would be suicide. The Heldrake killed some Deldar Warriors.

Turn four saw my last Oblit die (from two Gets Hot! rolls on a single rapid fire shot against the oncoming Wraithlord), my Warlord die, his Wraithlord could see one Cultist through a window, sitting on my objective. He was able to assault this lone Cultist, I had to Challenge with my Champ, he killed the Champ (obviously), I lost the combat, broke, and he cut down the rest of the 19 Cultists through a hole in the wall. The Heldrake killed a Warwalker.

Shortly after that, I gave up. It was late, and I didn't have anything to hurt his Wraithlord, which was standing on my objective. My Plague Marines and MoN Chaos Lord could have tried to charge the Wraithlord and kill him, but my opponent had Slay the Warlord and Linebreaker (stupid jetbikes) and all I had was First Blood.

I have won a few games with this codex, I'll admit. Maybe three, tops. But at this point, I'd really, really rather go back to the last codex. I miss my Daemon Weapons. I miss my Cult troops as actual troops. I miss my Daemon Princes. The Heldrake's okay, but at this point, that's the only bright spot I honestly see.

So please tell me how to fix my problem. Tell me I'm stupid for cursing this new codex and wanting to sell my army. Against synergy like this, I have no idea what to do.

Sorry for the long post, if you indeed got this far.

should have sacrifised your champion to save an autocannons, yeah those 2 lightning claws weren't doing anything for you.

Not sure why you moved shooty cultists into charge range of a bunch of harlies. They are shooty cultists, they are meant to shoot, harlies put out an insane number of rending attacks and will cut through terminators if you let them, giving them cultists is not a good idea.

Why was your baleflamer going after the wraithguard. Should have gone after the harlies or the jetbikes. Both would have simply died to the flamer. Instead you used the flamer on the one unit it could hurt.

As I said your steed lord and marines showed up and did nothing. If you are going to outflank soemthing it has to have a devistating arrival. 5 plasma chosen shot up and blow something away. Your oppoent did it right, 3 warwalkers came in and did some damage, and then you didnt kill them and let them do it again. Simply, hey my 14 guys showed up and did nothing is not a good use of your 400 points.

Turn three his warwalkers are still firing? You have to kill them when they show up. They have insane firepower but no resilence, you have to make sure they only fire once per game.

His wraithguard got all the way to your lines? Charge him with a bunch of CSM. you must challenge, lose one guy(you get rerolls to hit and wound with your single krak grenade). Next turn you have 9 attacks and should be able to put a wound on him every other turn or so. He is going to sit there every round killing 1 CSM. Sure that is a lot of break tests but you should be able to hold him up for a while. If on the other hand you had used your PM, you would have shredded him. 6 PM have 18 attacks, 24 on the charge. half hit, half wound, he fails some saves and is dead dead. Also you are fearless.


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Martel732 wrote:


All this being said, you have the kind of list the Eldar love to see. You have limited ability to shoot back at them. Eldar and especially dark Eldar crumple if you can hit back with a lot of shooting. Obviously this is less true for the fortuned units, but he can only do that so much.

exactly, your list is full of upgrades that do you not good. Has a bunch of units with very limited damage output, range or manuverabilty in a CSM dex that has a fair amount of all 3.

You then didn't target the right things. Eldar units are mostly very very easy to kill, you just seemed determined to try and kill the ones that are hard to kill. If you dont know your enemy you wont be able to win.

Do not underestimate how badly lascannons can hurt as list like this. They outrange the space elf weapons and can gun down wraithlords, war walkers and wraithguard.

My 1500 pt BA list packs 5 lascannons and 3 multimeltas and a quad gun with none in reserve. That means its hammer time for the space elves from turn 1.

The C:SM codex is demonstrably better than the BA codex I think. You just have to adapt your strategy for 6th edition. And for me, that means put a bigger priority on 48" guns.

You got bad luck with the hellturkey. Those things are the absolute hard counter to both of the toughest units eldar can currently muster(wraithguard walls and harlequins) Against WG, you just need 4's to kill, no cover or armor saves and they lack an invul. Against the clowns wound on 2+ and they just get their 5++. Also, vector strike in addition to the baleflamer will absolutely tear almost anything apart.Eldar have no flyer defense to speak of so you can cause mayhem at your lesiure.

Burning brand is also a great counter to harlequins.

MoS is somewhat countered by eldar and dark eldar. Both are I5+ generally everywhere. You might get to the I4 stuff now and again, but against most stuff you will fight simultaneous or get struck first. As said, MoN is ignored by deldar poison, wraithguard, harlequin rending, all eldar psyker swords/staves/spears and wraithlords can just smash through it.

Psykers can only use book powers OR codex powers. No mix and match. Fortune is basically how footdar win, doom and guide help as well. However, if you swap for book powers you lose all of these and roll X amount more. Make sure he was not doing that, as that kind of psychic OP stuff would wreck most armies.

Walkers are incredibly dangerous, and should be shot at ASAP. Wraithlords are fire magnets, but really only dangerous to armor(he had a bright lance and EML based on his points). Best way to kill these is get them tied up with plague marines. Due to those damn plague knives they go down fast, or oblit lascannon them to death.

Reaver jetbikes are more annoying than actually dangerous. They have 3+ cover saves if they turbo boost and use those bladevanes. Again, a unit easily destroyed by the hellturkey. Otherwise, they are a bit underwhelming against marines.

Dont ever get close to wraithguard unless they are mostly gone. If they are objective camping that is nearly 400 points of his army doing nothing. Kill the dangerous stuff instead. If he had a farseer with them, that is looking to be a 4th of his army in a 2k game.

Yes, Eldrad is a hacker and the baron is also pretty hacking, but shooting at that unit is exactly what he wants. Like martel said, target priority is key.

 Dr. Serling wrote:
You got bad luck with the hellturkey. Those things are the absolute hard counter to both of the toughest units eldar can currently muster(wraithguard walls and harlequins) Against WG, you just need 4's to kill, no cover or armor saves and they lack an invul. Against the clowns wound on 2+ and they just get their 5++. Also, vector strike in addition to the baleflamer will absolutely tear almost anything apart.Eldar have no flyer defense to speak of so you can cause mayhem at your lesiure.

But wounds go on the closest model, so if there is eldrad, a FS, a warlock, or the baron being the closest model then the wounds go on him and their rerollable save.

You get cover against VS i believe


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 Dr. Serling wrote:

Yes, Eldrad is a hacker and the baron is also pretty hacking, but shooting at that unit is exactly what he wants. Like martel said, target priority is key.

Eldrad is OP but the baron isn't really. He is a chump with a jetpack, stealth, hit and run and a 2++(that goes away if he fails) Other than that he is T3 and doesnt have a power weapon. 2 wounds 2(3) attacks, not all that great.


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Martel732 wrote:
Do not underestimate how badly lascannons can hurt as list like this. They outrange the space elf weapons and can gun down wraithlords, war walkers and wraithguard.

My 1500 pt BA list packs 5 lascannons and 3 multimeltas and a quad gun with none in reserve. That means its hammer time for the space elves from turn 1.

The C:SM codex is demonstrably better than the BA codex I think. You just have to adapt your strategy for 6th edition. And for me, that means put a bigger priority on 48" guns.

lascannons are ok for CSM but really overkill against eldar and DE. They have nothing more than AV12. The things that were the problem were AV10. Autocannons are better against those.

You're not stupid, but this does not look like a CSM list that's geared to fight Eldar. You have to watch out for certain units, namely:

- Eldrad.

- Anything that can cast fortune.

Someone explained the mathhammer for this on another board but, basically, your chances to wound Eldar goes up by around 66% without fortune. The casters need to be your priority, but your list is not really geared to take them out.

The way to deal with Eldrad is with saturated fire, have a ton of units shoot him until he goes away. Don't try to take him on in cc, he's too fast and his weapons always wound. The way to deal with the rest of these guys is by using weapons that don't allow saves.

I count 21 bolters in your 1850 point list plus 5 storm bolters and some heavies. That's not enough shot power to put down psychic threats that re-roll saves. The cultists are fun, but they are not going to do much against Eldar in cc or shooting no matter how many you bring.

My advice:

- Dump the cultists, get CSMs in packs of 10 instead and give them heavy weapons. I would even think about lascannons for these guys.

- Dump the autocannons, get lascannons instead.

- Dump all of the lightning claws - you are spending enough points on those to afford another CSM unit.

- Dump the brand and get the Black Mace instead.

- Dump the PPs, they are not helping you.

- If you are going to use Terminators, fine, but consider swapping them for bikers, predators or spawn. You need something faster than them that can still hit hard.

- If you are going to use Obliterators, fine, but consider Lascannon Havocs. You get more of dakka for the points.

- If you really want to screw with Eldar use Noise Marines. Besides making it real fluffy, you get a lot more shots and blastmasters are great against Eldar.

- Have your Heldrake vector strike something every turn, Eldar don't have great AA and it gives you a chance to beat up on units that are superior in CC.

- Consider an allied Daemon force with flamers.

Got to say, I disagree with your assessment about this edition and have noticed you are not using any of the troops that are good in the new Codex.

 Shelegelah wrote:

Wraithguard suffer from a huge flaw: they have no invulnerable save. Take advantage of this, douse them in plasma cannons before they get in range of you. If they're out of cover, they're dead. Can't re-roll a save you don't have, you elven bastards.

wraithguard get a detached warlock from the seer council. His power is usually Conceal(5+ cover)
then the baron has stealth, so they have 4+ cover when standing in the open.
they are on large bases meaning it is hard to get more than 1-2 models.
If fortune is on, you may as well use your plasmacannons elsewhere

 Shelegelah wrote:

Wraithguard suffer from a huge flaw: they have no invulnerable save. Take advantage of this, douse them in plasma cannons before they get in range of you. If they're out of cover, they're dead. Can't re-roll a save you don't have, you elven bastards.

Haha, forgot about this. Noise Marines are the natural counter with sonic weapons that ignore cover.

I don't think lascannons are ever "overkill". Lascannons guarantee glances on AV 10 and they now get +1 to the penetration roll. They wound wraithlords on a 3 and have double the chance of one-shotting a waveserpent, conserving your fire for other targets.

I also build all-comers lists usually, and in 6th edition, the krak missile was a big loser with the rise of 2+ armor and AP 2 getting +1 to the results table. Lascannons are fantastic against every transport in the game and a lot of 6th edition (just like 5th) is getting your opponent on foot and taking away his mobility. Then you can turn it into a turkey shoot. And use template weapons on them. Burn Eldar!

BTW, do C:SM get whirlwinds? Eldar hate whirlwinds because of the ignorecover ammo.


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Sonic weapons ignore cover now? BRUTAL. I want to make Dethklok marines now

Martel732 wrote:
I don't think lascannons are ever "overkill". Lascannons guarantee glances on AV 10 and they now get +1 to the penetration roll. They wound wraithlords on a 3 and have double the chance of one-shotting a waveserpent, conserving your fire for other targets.

but they cost more than autocannons and autocannons get more shots. Autoglancing with 1 shot is not as good as glancing on 3+ with 2 shots. Also on things with only 2 hull points and open topped your chances to blow them up doesnt go up that considerably. Autocannons pen on 4+ and then blow up on a 5+, but with 2 shots. Lascannons pen on 2+ then blow up on 4+ but with only one shot. So autocannons actually pen MORE often against AV10 with a slightly lower chance to blow up. The increase in glaces is huge though, and the lower cost.

Against Waveserpants sure, but warwalkers and venoms?


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 techsoldaten wrote:

 Shelegelah wrote:

Wraithguard suffer from a huge flaw: they have no invulnerable save. Take advantage of this, douse them in plasma cannons before they get in range of you. If they're out of cover, they're dead. Can't re-roll a save you don't have, you elven bastards.

Haha, forgot about this. Noise Marines are the natural counter with sonic weapons that ignore cover.

but against T6 on large bases... the blastmaster is still only gonna kill 1-2. And you are wasting all those str4 shots.

I appreciate the comments.

Some quick clarifications: Eldrad was using Divination and the Farseer was using Eldar powers (I texted my frient to clarify). The Wraithguard were in cover, with Eldrad, the Farseer, The Baron and somebody else. That's where his objective was. Since they were in cover, I was in bad shape.

The Heldrake did Vector Strike the Harlies when it came in (couldn't hit them with the Baleflamer), but they were in ruins so they got their cover, unless we were doing that wrong. I think it killed one. In that same turn, the Heldrake used the Baleflamer on the Wraithguard, which I thought would work great since it's AP3 and they have 3+ armor, however he had Forewarning on them, which gave them a 4+ invulnerable save. I think the Heldrake killed one.

The MoS steed unit actually got to shoot on turn two when they came in (they were right by the Harlies in the ruins) and the Burning Brand killed half of them. It was the best kill of the game, possibly.

I will admit, I like to use my upgrades. I guess it's because every other army is swimming in wargear and upgrades that do all kinds of crazy things, and I do have options, but when I post to places like Dakka, that's the first thing that people tell me to get rid of. My thoughts on the dual LC Champs was that I am always forced to Challenge, so I should be prepared to do it when needed. If I win, I could really help my cause and maybe get something cool. Also, I had these sweet-looking LC guys from the Dark Vengeance box, so it seemed like a good fit.

I also hate to spam stuff, which is why I haven't bought a second Heldrake, but everyone tells me I should.

I have a MoN Chaos Lord on a bike, so I could mix him up with other bikers in the future (or MoN spawn) but I thought the outflanking would be helpful. I always get unnerved when my opponent ends up in my backfield right away in turn two or three.

Some very solid advise in this thread, but just wanted to add that War walkers arn't open topped. (Well unless i've missed an faq)

Martel732 wrote:
Sonic weapons ignore cover now? BRUTAL. I want to make Dethklok marines now

I field about 40 of these guys in most games these days. Flat out killers vs Eldar and MEQ.

Lilrys wrote:
Some very solid advise in this thread, but just wanted to add that War walkers arn't open topped. (Well unless i've missed an faq)

ahh I thought they were

Here's a revised list, following ideas from you guys and stripping almost all the fluff from the units that I enjoy.

Chaos Lord on Bike, MoN, Sigil of Corruption, LC, Burning Brand
He'll run with five Chaos Spawn, MoN

Seven Plague Marines, 2x Plasma Guns, Champ with Power Axe, Rhino

Seven Plague Marines, 2x Plasma Guns, Champ with Power Axe, Rhino

Seven Plague Marines, 2x Plasma Guns, Champ with Power Axe

Heldrake with Baleflamer

Forgefiend with Hades Autocannons

Five Havocs with 4x Autocannons, naked Champ

Three Chaos Bikers, MoN, 2x Plasma guns, naked Champ

Three Obliterators, MoN

1847 points

How does this look, both against the Eldar shenanigans I went up against last night and in general?

 Exergy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't think lascannons are ever "overkill". Lascannons guarantee glances on AV 10 and they now get +1 to the penetration roll. They wound wraithlords on a 3 and have double the chance of one-shotting a waveserpent, conserving your fire for other targets.

but they cost more than autocannons and autocannons get more shots. Autoglancing with 1 shot is not as good as glancing on 3+ with 2 shots. Also on things with only 2 hull points and open topped your chances to blow them up doesnt go up that considerably. Autocannons pen on 4+ and then blow up on a 5+, but with 2 shots. Lascannons pen on 2+ then blow up on 4+ but with only one shot. So autocannons actually pen MORE often against AV10 with a slightly lower chance to blow up. The increase in glaces is huge though, and the lower cost.

Against Waveserpants sure, but warwalkers and venoms?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Shelegelah wrote:

Wraithguard suffer from a huge flaw: they have no invulnerable save. Take advantage of this, douse them in plasma cannons before they get in range of you. If they're out of cover, they're dead. Can't re-roll a save you don't have, you elven bastards.

Haha, forgot about this. Noise Marines are the natural counter with sonic weapons that ignore cover.

but against T6 on large bases... the blastmaster is still only gonna kill 1-2. And you are wasting all those str4 shots.

I usually build all comers lists, and you never know which AV an army list will spam. The lascannon has excellent range and is effective against every AV in the game, even 14. The autocannon is also an excellent weapon, and I am even going to ally in Vanilla marines to my BA to get a riflemen dread. But the fact of the matter is that there are many priority targets where the autocannon falls short either because of S7 or AP4. This is why I bring both in my lists, and I noticed he had no lascannons so I brought it up. There is no demonstrable "best weapon" in 40k, but there are combinations that are definitely better than others. And it never hurts to cover your bases

Wraithguard on the ojective? Kill the rest of his list and then pound them from range 24. I love pre-measuring

 atomsmasher wrote:
I appreciate the comments.

The Heldrake did Vector Strike the Harlies when it came in (couldn't hit them with the Baleflamer), but they were in ruins so they got their cover, unless we were doing that wrong. I think it killed one. In that same turn, the Heldrake used the Baleflamer on the Wraithguard, which I thought would work great since it's AP3 and they have 3+ armor, however he had Forewarning on them, which gave them a 4+ invulnerable save. I think the Heldrake killed one.

The MoS steed unit actually got to shoot on turn two when they came in (they were right by the Harlies in the ruins) and the Burning Brand killed half of them. It was the best kill of the game, possibly.

I will admit, I like to use my upgrades. I guess it's because every other army is swimming in wargear and upgrades that do all kinds of crazy things, and I do have options, but when I post to places like Dakka, that's the first thing that people tell me to get rid of. My thoughts on the dual LC Champs was that I am always forced to Challenge, so I should be prepared to do it when needed. If I win, I could really help my cause and maybe get something cool. Also, I had these sweet-looking LC guys from the Dark Vengeance box, so it seemed like a good fit.

I have a MoN Chaos Lord on a bike, so I could mix him up with other bikers in the future (or MoN spawn) but I thought the outflanking would be helpful. I always get unnerved when my opponent ends up in my backfield right away in turn two or three.

I understand your hated of spamming things, and I hope I wasn't too hard on you. The upgrade were kind of crazy, dual lightning claw is a lot(also you had 2 of them, almost spammy...)

The biggest problem you had was not using the right unit for the right job. When you see a wraithlord, either decide if you want to shoot it down early or use your PM to kill it in combat. Remember that you have to challenge, so dont keep your lord with the unit you want to take on the wraithlord.

When you see a big wraithstar like that, think about ignoring it at first and killing everything else. Otherwise you want to think about getting PM and Terminators into combat with it at the same time. Try to close that 12" range in one turn. One option is to pull them through combat. Move up your terminators and PM behind some spawn. Charge them with the spawn but try to only get 1-2 spawn in combat. They move first with their high init pile ins. Hopefully you have 1 spawn aline when you get to strike. Next turn(his turn) he cant shoot his wraithguard and then he will again have to move at his init step towards your spawn but finally he will kill the last of the of tehm, then he will try to move away from your terminators and PM. Next turn(your turn) you can attack with PM and terminators.

Alterinatively you can use cultists and a fearless character to do this. Keep the fearless guy in the back so he doesnt get shot. wraithstars dont put out a lot of wounds, so they will probably waddle through for 3-4 turns at which point you can use your terminators and PM to kill them off with weight of attacks. In his wraithstar he is using 2 FS, a warlock, and the baron. None of those characters are particularly good at killing Meq characters. Low attacks, wound on 2+ but then only eldrad ignores armor. If you have eldrad in combat, be happy.

If he is going to take a wraithstar, think about taking the murder sword(name eldrad) on a guy with MoS or MoT. At init 6 you will strike before all but the baron(simo). If you are in basecontact with eldrad(not nessisarilly attacking him) you are str8 ap2 ID. That will make a mess of just about everything there when it gets through the armor.

 atomsmasher wrote:
How does this look, both against the Eldar shenanigans I went up against last night and in general?

Tougher.

One suggestion: drop the Forgefiend for more bikers.

 atomsmasher wrote:
Here's a revised list, following ideas from you guys and stripping almost all the fluff from the units that I enjoy.

Chaos Lord on Bike, MoN, Sigil of Corruption, LC, Burning Brand
He'll run with five Chaos Spawn, MoN

Seven Plague Marines, 2x Plasma Guns, Champ with Power Axe, Rhino

Seven Plague Marines, 2x Plasma Guns, Champ with Power Axe, Rhino

Seven Plague Marines, 2x Plasma Guns, Champ with Power Axe

Heldrake with Baleflamer

Forgefiend with Hades Autocannons

Five Havocs with 4x Autocannons, naked Champ

Three Chaos Bikers, MoN, 2x Plasma guns, naked Champ

Three Obliterators, MoN

1847 points

How does this look, both against the Eldar shenanigans I went up against last night and in general?

Change out some plasma for melta. You might have to fight LRs. You never know.

Is the forgefiend a vehicle? I"m just doing some armor saturation math in my head.

Martel732 wrote:

I usually build all comers lists, and you never know which AV an army list will spam. The lascannon has excellent range and is effective against every AV in the game, even 14. The autocannon is also an excellent weapon, and I am even going to ally in Vanilla marines to my BA to get a riflemen dread. But the fact of the matter is that there are many priority targets where the autocannon falls short either because of S7 or AP4. This is why I bring both in my lists, and I noticed he had no lascannons so I brought it up. There is no demonstrable "best weapon" in 40k, but there are combinations that are definitely better than others. And it never hurts to cover your bases

Wraithguard on the ojective? Kill the rest of his list and then pound them from range 24. I love pre-measuring

Ok I agree, I take a unit of autocannons and a unit of lascannons in my lists. You said specifically replace the autocannons with lascannons

 techsoldaten wrote:
One suggestion: drop the Forgefiend for more bikers.

Just wondering... why bikers? They honestly seem like they're mostly designed for speedily bringing some plasma to the enemy and getting Linebreaker. Are you suggesting I use them for close combat? Won't that kind of tarpit them and make them less effective? I figured the Forgefiend would be 'moar dakka' which would have helped me out last night.

 Exergy wrote:

ahh I thought they were

In fairness it's one of the only rules where people consistantly ask to see my codex, that and Dark reapers having 3+ (not sure why that is so hard to believe, but apperently it is )

Martel732 wrote:
Is the forgefiend a vehicle? I"m just doing some armor saturation math in my head.

It's basically an AV12 walker with a 5+ invulnerable and It Will Not Die. Plus two Hades Autocannons (36" S8 AP4 Heavy 4, Pinning) which are kinda nice.

 atomsmasher wrote:

Just wondering... why bikers? They honestly seem like they're mostly designed for speedily bringing some plasma to the enemy and getting Linebreaker. Are you suggesting I use them for close combat? Won't that kind of tarpit them and make them less effective? I figured the Forgefiend would be 'moar dakka' which would have helped me out last night.

Bikers are a little tougher than regular troops for a few more points. You are going to need more of them to get the plasmas into range, figure on 1 - 2 kills per round. If you go flat out at the Eldar, you are not going to be shooting until at least the second round.

After all the advice it boils down to two things which are not coded specific. Target priority and effective use.

Effective use: making sure each point spent is spent in a manner in which it can be made back. 30 points to give a dakka man 2 LCs? Putting a lord on a steed to outflank with footsloggers?

Both are not effective uses in their own way, the first one could have been spent on more bodies or effective upgrades that. An be used every turn (a reason why small dev squads are almost always point effective)

The second is outflanking with a unit that needs 3-4 turns to do its job, not a effective time frame to be of any use. Plan your units and lists so each point you spend is doing something to effect the game in your favour, trim upgrades that don't.

2: target priority
Eldar (actually most armies) are about target priority, who kills what/when. Often it's to remove their ranger threats and delay their mobility while maintaining yours. In this case even with your misspent points you had the tools to deal with his army but just choose the wrong targets.

I would suggest reviewing each of your units and identify what their prime targets are.

 atomsmasher wrote:
Here's a revised list, following ideas from you guys and stripping almost all the fluff from the units that I enjoy.

Chaos Lord on Bike, MoN, Sigil of Corruption, LC, Burning Brand
He'll run with five Chaos Spawn, MoN

Seven Plague Marines, 2x Plasma Guns, Champ with Power Axe, Rhino

Seven Plague Marines, 2x Plasma Guns, Champ with Power Axe, Rhino

Seven Plague Marines, 2x Plasma Guns, Champ with Power Axe

Heldrake with Baleflamer

Forgefiend with Hades Autocannons

Five Havocs with 4x Autocannons, naked Champ

Three Chaos Bikers, MoN, 2x Plasma guns, naked Champ

Three Obliterators, MoN

1847 points

How does this look, both against the Eldar shenanigans I went up against last night and in general?

you need not go that spammy all out if you dont want to.
2 units of plagues are fine, one with a power axe and maybe one with a powerfist.
1 10 man unit of CSM with a champ with that lighting claw you like so much.
I like the cultists, perhaps with huron to make them fearless.

as mentioned the force fiend is good, but without much other armor he is likely not going to last too long. That said AV12 is pretty hard for eldar to deal with.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 techsoldaten wrote:

 atomsmasher wrote:

Just wondering... why bikers? They honestly seem like they're mostly designed for speedily bringing some plasma to the enemy and getting Linebreaker. Are you suggesting I use them for close combat? Won't that kind of tarpit them and make them less effective? I figured the Forgefiend would be 'moar dakka' which would have helped me out last night.

Bikers are a little tougher than regular troops for a few more points. You are going to need more of them to get the plasmas into range, figure on 1 - 2 kills per round. If you go flat out at the Eldar, you are not going to be shooting until at least the second round.

bikes have T5(DE dont care about) but it helps sometimes
bikes have a 5+ cover save whenever they move(its something)
bikes are faster
bikes get hammer of wrath and have 3 attacks when charging. So yes they are good in close combat.
Most eldar are str3 in combat, so being T5 helps here.

On a prior comment biker for CSM are amazing, in CC (either MoS/IoE or MoN) they have hammer of wrath, 3 attacks and a high toughness.

Oh and they are cheap as sin for what they do.