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I'm so fortunate that at the game store I play at, at the end of EACH battle, we shake hands congratulate the winner and then exchange tips and things we could have done better.

Also, I remember one game where I nearly tabled my opponent by turn 4, I kept apologising about my dice rolls.

I don't think I get angry if I lose.. more like depressed really.

for example, in my last game against nids. A dakka pred opened fired on a group of hormagaunts, where I procede to roll 8 d6. only one heavy bolter hit, and it didn't even wound.


Also, when the doom of malan'tai dropped on my "castle", he proceded to kill my terminators with the str 4 AP2 pieplate, and used leach life the assault phase.

I lost 2 tactical squads and the rest of my terminator squad. I killed it in my next turn, but by then the Swarmlord got to my lines and tore my guys a new one.

just moments like that that make me me feel so happy


In fact I only got angry when another guy saw me mopeing around after the game, comes up and asks "So how did the game go? did you win?)"

"WHAT the think happened?!"

 Brother SRM wrote:
Sounds like you're playing against whiny and terrible people. It doesn't matter what army they're playing, they'll be the same way about everything.

Reasonable people might get miffed if they fail a disproportionate amount of saves. I know I've gotten a little despondent when I rolled 5 armor saves for terminators only to lose 4.

I got pretty annoyed when something like that happened. I was trying out Ravenwing/Deathwing, and was depending on my DW terminators to do most of the killing. I ended up having the rotten luck of rolling so many 1's for my Terminators, even my opponent agreed that the dice gods were hating on me on that day.

Otherwise, I don't really care if I lose models. 6th ed rules on wound allocations made it easier for me to make my bolter dudes be the ablative wounds and all that.

 TheCaptain wrote:

Roadkill Zombie wrote:

start pulling stupid things like Mindshackle Scarabs? And anything that can kill invulnerable save models without them getting any kind of save what so ever and I start to get a little angry.

Why. It's an ability of the wargear.

Because, invulnerable saves aren't truly invulnerable if you can get around them are they...it is a stupid ability that should have never been put in the game. I didn't pay a god awful amount of points to keep my independent character safe just so some Space Wolf Rune Priest can Jaws of the World Wolf him off the table with one hit. Or a Dark Eldar doing pretty much the same thing with a lot of their wargear. Or Necrons grabbing a hold of an Eldar mind and making them attack themselves ( Eldar are known for having the most powerful self control of all the races, why would mindshackle scarabs even work on them?)
Those abilities are, in my opinion, very bad game design. Taking away armour saves or cover saves I can understand but NOTHING should have ever gotten past an invulnerable save.

It's more about game mechanics than going along with the fluff. It's kind of cheap to have a unit that has something that nothing can get by.

It's not cheap at all. Invulnerable saves aren't totally invulnerable to begin with. But they do give you the ability to ignore things IF you roll well. But not if you roll bad. Volume of fire and bad rolls is how a person should have to get through an invul save, not some cheap piece of wargear that makes a person that it is used against feel as if they have been cheated, even though by the rules, they haven't.

If a model has an invul save it should be able to try to make that save vs everything.

I've only encountered this kind of behaviour from new players and one friend of mine but he has always been a sore loser. I am more likely to encounter "meh, another marine player" attitude when I put my captain on the table, though that attitude turns into "wtf" soon when I start unloading my scouts on the table and soon they will be asking that where is all my power armor (and I just answer "right there" and point at the captain).

People should remember that it is all a game that involves dice so luck has a quite big part in it.

The game is mainly about risk management.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:
Those abilities are, in my opinion, very bad game design. Taking away armour saves or cover saves I can understand but NOTHING should have ever gotten past an invulnerable save.

Invulnerable saves have been able to be negated since 3rd edition. Be glad that you don't have to deal with Dreadaxe Dæmon Princes or old Callidus Assassins assaulting anywhere on the board from reserves with C'tan Phase Swords-- both of these units were very strong in assault and ignored all saves completely.

I think poor sportsmanship, immaturity and overly emotional gaming is represented among the gamers of all races, not just marines. In fact some of the most enjoyable gaming I've had was against mature gamers (commanding Ultramarines etc *THE HORROR*) with beautifully painted armies.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:
It's not cheap at all. Invulnerable saves aren't totally invulnerable to begin with. But they do give you the ability to ignore things IF you roll well. But not if you roll bad. Volume of fire and bad rolls is how a person should have to get through an invul save, not some cheap piece of wargear that makes a person that it is used against feel as if they have been cheated, even though by the rules, they haven't.

If a model has an invul save it should be able to try to make that save vs everything.

Invulnerable save in general is silly. Because invulnerable is invulnerable. Not a chance to be invulnerable.

So your invulnerable save is a chance to be invulnerable.

Certain wargear alter that chance. To 0%.

Your invuln save is still there. You just can't use it.

If you're upset about the invuln save being ignored by things, you just don't understand the nature of invuln saves.

Jaws ignores it because it sucks you into the warp. Its not hitting you, it's not damaging you, so there's nothing for the invuln to save. It just causes you to go somewhere else.

To the eldar thing; so they have the most powerful self control? Doesn't mean it's perfect self-control. Just better than everyone else. Which is disputable. Because Tyranids have better self control. Because they don't think.

 Ascalam wrote:
More Warboss vs Archon.

Loki is a big enough jerk to be DE , and is apparently fething lousy at predicting the future (or he would have run like hell instead of talking to the Hulk that way

my archon would have something to say to that... the shadow field is always the kicker- splattering pesky straken was a highlight of one game, we had a laugh after he got whipped to death



on topic...

i'll say now some folks get wound up over some things rightly or wrongly and are entitled to their opinions (even if they are acting like idiots)- however currently to my embarressment i can't help but having a rage against necron scarbs i'll find a way eventually but i just can't kill the darn things fast enough, and the entropic strike mechanic is absurd (thats enough calm down now... )


some marine palyers don't like it when you turn their army to scrap metal, by fair means or foul (in their eyes that its ). The few idiots that i've met have tended to give me an odd first impression from the moment you ask them (for any army this is) for a game/meet them in a tournament. They might not be a bad person but they are of a dispostion that really seems strange- what usually rears it head is the quote "what the hell are they on i wish i had some" .


i haven't met any of these types in a while though, if i ever played a game at a store i'd expect to bump into one or two, as I pointed out to a few newbie 40k players recently- marines are not always the best, it depends upon your list and playstyle preferences.

I had a regular opponent for years. Played him over 50 times, won 0- drew 6- lost 47......

It didn't matter what I bought to the table, Eldar, Nids, SM, C:SM, blob IG, Necrons, Tau.. He ate them all with his Orks. We played through 3 iterations of 40k, from 2nd through to 5th. It didn't matter what I rolled, he bettered it. His tactics were superior, his army was constantly evolving and he was quite the most disgustingly lucky person I've ever met. Add these things to the fact that I'm (still) tactically naive and just about the unluckiest bloke in the TT universe, and I had every reason to be TFG.

However, we almost always had a great time, didn't matter if it was 500pts over lunch time or 5000pts over the weekend. It was always awesome. Good beer, good music and good company.

Sure, there were times when I rage-quit, there were times when I thought "screw this, I'm taking up M:TG" ( which I was marginally more successful at tbh) but most of the time it was played in a good and friendly way.

As for SM players, I've met a few who were tools, but no more than I feel when I lose a tac squad to 6 Grots and a fething runtherd... I just like to hide my emotions until I'm mulling over the result with mates at home or in the pub. Some people can't help but get emotional when their army gets tabled after 3 turns. Suck it up and learn from it, that's all I can say really!

I play Blood Angels, Nurgle Chaos Marines, Tyranids and Tau.

Means I only cry half the time

Seriously though the army choice has little to do with it; it's down to the personality of the player although Marines are the army of choice for the majority so maybe it skews perceptions slightly.

Consider that it's easy to put faith in a 3+ compared 5+ or 6+ so it can seem more galling when you fail. Hell I stopped taking Termies because I always trusted the 2+ and it never paid off.

Well, it's more frustrating to lose a high value model than one (or several even) low point models, if only because it's visibly a more significant piece of your army missing. This applies to any elite army, marines are just the most common by far.

 TrickyTaquito wrote:
Well, it's more frustrating to lose a high value model than one (or several even) low point models, if only because it's visibly a more significant piece of your army missing. This applies to any elite army, marines are just the most common by far.

This. Every Space marine is quite an investment. The local SM player at our store never misses a chance to bitch. I honestly don't understand it, as I play orks. So while I remove mine by the fistful, the dude has a hissy fit when Brother Gerald gets a choppa to the face.

I honestly find it liberating playing orks. Not giving a hoot about each model is rather nice.

I have a friend who plays IG that does this exact thing when i start unpacking my necrons.

i will pop a couepl of his tansk and he will just give up and start sayign "well the games over, nothing i can do about it now" everytiem i roll a dice.

for a whiel i switched to my Chaos army any time i played him as i coudn't be bother with the whining, but i have gotten tot he poitn where i'm thinking I actually prefer my necrons - i prefer shooty armies and that's why i started buying them in the first place.

i have even told him on several occasions exactly hwo to beat (hwo to get around RP, what to shoot thsi particular unti with etc etc) btu nothgin seems to hep him get over it.

@Peregrine

What an excellent and mature OP! I love it when emphircal research and TTG come together.

Clearly you are experiancing a normal situation and given your sample size of two, this is a study that surely does not warrent investigation or analysis, but should immediately be published as a warning to not only possible future SM players, but to anyone unfortunate enough to face them.

Yes, the second you pick up a SM model, brain chemistry is altered. It comes from the curve of the paldrons mainly, but good science also shows that it is also a natural change that can come from reading the unique flavor of SM fluff in the Codex. Both the aura of power from the "power armor" (see what they did to you there?) and the constant pumping of expectations from the codex lore, make it impossible for otherwise intelligent humans to discern 2/6 odds and the randomness of dice. I am sure that you have never encountered a mature SM player, as the 3+ save actually does make this impossible.

This is only true, as you hypothesized, when using 2+/3+ armour. Players who run an all scout marine force only deal with this crippling effect when their HQ is attacked, but are otherwise unaffected.

Luckily there are calm and rational IG players, like yourself, out there, that are devoid of the hyperbole and knee-jerk "TFG syndrome" that SM players are so susceptible to. The maturity and depth of character of the IG players (who never whine about be rolled by any CC unit out there or complain of the change to "heavy" that the Leman Russ went through or have a long history of personal attacks and a natural proclivity to call people "stupid" on internet forums ) is also due to thier choice of plastic army guys to push around the table. Clearly in being so upset about people complaining about irrational blind spots, they would never themselves go complain irrationally about something so trivial and silly, that in even uttering of the offense, one would question the intellect of the party(s) involved... :S

 Peregrine wrote:

 Ascalam wrote:
Especially so for Nid, Ork and Horde Guard players, who generally get to remove their models by the spadeful each enemy turn..

Or even elite IG. Glass cannon artillery tanks die early and often, Chimeras explode and take half a veteran squad with them, plasma gunners kill themselves, etc. Even if you play elite IG you're going to either get used to removing your favorite models, or you're going to quit the game entirely within your first few games.

For example, the game that inspired this post: before we even put the first model on the table my opponent was complaining about my pair of Medusas and a LR Demolisher. So, how did this go?

My turn 1: Demolisher is out of range and searchlights something, Medusas put two glances on a Land Raider. Opponent whines about how unfair it is that I damaged the Land Raider.
His turn 1: Demolisher explodes, one Medusa explodes, and the other is immobilized with nothing to shoot at. I remove the models and figure out what unit now has to do the Medusa's job.

Did my opponent admit that the tanks weren't so scary after all? Of course not. He just moved the whining to the next unit which was able to kill a space marine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Painbiro wrote:
Firstly, may I ask how old this player is? I get the impression he's an adult, which is really, really sad...

Both were adults, at least 20-30 years old. The opponent I played tonight was married with kids, so I can only imagine how bad family game night is...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ascalam wrote:
Sm players are also the most likely to name every model in the force, write the name on the shoulder-pad and create bad fan-fiction about each one. Don't ask me why, but i've only seen this tendency in SM players.

The funny thing is that one of the people I'm thinking of played a completely bare plastic GK army and had barely even even read the fluff part of his codex. But over and over again he'd roll average or better on his armor saves and complain about how his power armor isn't working. It's like there was the mental blind spot on the fact that a 3+ save means you still fail a third of the time, and his expectation was that he had a rerollable 2++.

1. Yes some Marines players are way out of line.
2. True story i was using my deathwing against my friends IG he fires 3 plasma gunners 2 1's 1 arnor save failed His Reaction "Yes, Only 1 Died!!!"
It is all in how you play the game I admit to naming everyone in my Deathwing some names are serious some are funny.But I am far more accepting of losing models as I also play Skaven in WHFB (where you actually have the rule Expendable.) I think most people who run elite armies hate how their soldiers are no where near as tough as they are in the fluff and the average guardsman is a lot more dangerous (compared to fluff.)

To put this into words that can be simply explained Fluff does not equal Rules. Get over play the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCaptain wrote:

 Testify wrote:
People who're decent and reasonable are usually decent and reasonable to play against. Harking back to my sex analogy, it's rare for people to spontaniously change personality once they take their clothes off - if you're a good judge of charector you should be able to tell what they're like off the bat.

How can you judge someone's character based on:

"Hey man, do you want to play an 1850 game?"

"Yeah, let me grab my stuff."

Unless you're psychic. Which would be cool.

Not to mention, its totally possible for someone to change dispositions when their luck turns sour. Seen it happen.

I have a friend who will challenge anything you do if he hasn't heard of it. he will ask you to show him it in your book.

For example, the game that inspired this post: before we even put the first model on the table my opponent was complaining about my pair of Medusas and a LR Demolisher. So, how did this go?

My turn 1: Demolisher is out of range and searchlights something, Medusas put two glances on a Land Raider. Opponent whines about how unfair it is that I damaged the Land Raider.
His turn 1: Demolisher explodes, one Medusa explodes, and the other is immobilized with nothing to shoot at. I remove the models and figure out what unit now has to do the Medusa's job.

Did my opponent admit that the tanks weren't so scary after all? Of course not. He just moved the whining to the next unit which was able to kill a space marine.

You're not able to do that, you have to fire ALL your weapons at the target, if you cannot do that you cannot light something up, so he was somewhat right in his complaint.

I kind of noticed that people tend to whine when they feel like they've been taken out of the game quickly. Alpha strike armies, such as my Dark Eldar, cause a lot of whining when turn one your Land Raider is a wreck as well as the vindicator. Also I've been called cheese because of the Night Vision. Cheese? Dark Eldar? Wha?

I used to be a real tool when I first started playing in 2nd edition. I had a space marine army, and no matter what flavour of the week army my friend picked up, I always ended up fighting tooth and nail over the course of every fight, his new army was always cheesier than my army, right up until I got Mephiston to play with. After that, he got the Chaos Codex, and I'd get minced up by Kharn the Betrayer and Abbadon.

Since then, a lot of time has passed, and I've collected Eldar and more Recently, some Orks. My first effort was to join the local GW store's Apocalypse games. This did a great job of setting the tone. On the turn my reinforcements turned up, My Avatar skewered a unit of Bloodcrushers single-handedly, and my ten-strong unit of Wraithguard hilariously overkilled a Necron Annihilation barge. The next turn, my Avatar was shot to bits by bolters, and my Wraithguard were obliterated by a Monolith pieplate and a C'tan. At this point I learned: My local store doesn't have Eldar players, so my units were a nasty shock to the other side, and that drawing a lot of attention to yourself in an Apocalypse game is a bad idea. I grinned as my models were wiped out as they had made an impression, and that the other team did a good job with their dice rolls.

Since playing about with my Eldar in Apoc I have had a quick 500pt game with my fledgling Ork army and almost got tabled by a Tzeentch daemon force.

Picking an army with low survivability or just taking part in an Apocalypse game teaches you pretty quickly not to worry too much about losses. As gpfunk says, it's liberating to know you'll take heavy casualties. It teaches you to think about the bigger picture in your games rather than lamenting your centrepiece unit being mauled by bad luck.

 captain collius wrote:


I have a friend who will challenge anything you do if he hasn't heard of it. he will ask you to show him it in your book.

He sounds very interested in learning the finer points of the game.

Good for him.

Do consider that Space Marines of all flavors are some of the most popular armies, and many players make sure they have the tools to deal with Power Armor. The SM player isn't cursing you in particular, he's just tired of meeting armies full of guns that deny him saves or wound his marines on 2+ so he has to roll a bucket of saves where statistically 1/3 fail.

 ShatteredBlade wrote:
I kind of noticed that people tend to whine when they feel like they've been taken out of the game quickly. Alpha strike armies, such as my Dark Eldar, cause a lot of whining when turn one your Land Raider is a wreck as well as the vindicator. Also I've been called cheese because of the Night Vision. Cheese? Dark Eldar? Wha?

Hrm, with AV10 on most vehicles, i suppose your opponent simply mean't swiss cheese.

Spetulhu wrote:
Do consider that Space Marines of all flavors are some of the most popular armies, and many players make sure they have the tools to deal with Power Armor. The SM player isn't cursing you in particular, he's just tired of meeting armies full of guns that deny him saves or wound his marines on 2+ so he has to roll a bucket of saves where statistically 1/3 fail.

So Imperial Guard players should be suicidal, right?

Because every gun denies my save, wounds me on 3+ or better, and most instant death me.

Oh, and my saves 2/3 of the time fail.

 KingDeath wrote:

 ShatteredBlade wrote:
I kind of noticed that people tend to whine when they feel like they've been taken out of the game quickly. Alpha strike armies, such as my Dark Eldar, cause a lot of whining when turn one your Land Raider is a wreck as well as the vindicator. Also I've been called cheese because of the Night Vision. Cheese? Dark Eldar? Wha?

Hrm, with AV10 on most vehicles, i suppose your opponent simply mean't swiss cheese.

When every vehicle in your codex bar two things can be glanced to death by bolters, I tend to agree.

 TheCaptain wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:
Do consider that Space Marines of all flavors are some of the most popular armies.

So Imperial Guard players should be suicidal, right?

Ofc not. The marine player just sees losses as much worse - the points that bought him ten marines gets a Guard player 25-30 men to sacrifice. And if people stock up on anti-marine weapons they're wasting points on high-strength low-AP guns if they happen to face you instead. A guard commander knows from the start that he needs to sacrifice some men in order to win. A marine player has all the GW poster boy hype as well as the Codex hype about wargear to make him feel like the marines should be doing better instead of just dying out there.

 TheCaptain wrote:

 captain collius wrote:


I have a friend who will challenge anything you do if he hasn't heard of it. he will ask you to show him it in your book.

He sounds very interested in learning the finer points of the game.

Good for him.

True he'll tell you after he's calmed down (dreaded 13th really gets him) this is how he learns ev ery other armies rules its actually quite instructional.

 captain collius wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:

 captain collius wrote:


I have a friend who will challenge anything you do if he hasn't heard of it. he will ask you to show him it in your book.

He sounds very interested in learning the finer points of the game.

Good for him.

True he'll tell you after he's calmed down (dreaded 13th really gets him) this is how he learns ev ery other armies rules its actually quite instructional.

There is a difference though. Someone who does that and says, " Oh, wow I didn't know that!" is trying to learn. Someone who hands the book back and proclaims" That is such B and your army is broken I hate Mat Ward blah blah blah overpowered blah blah Congress." isn't exactly trying to learn the book.