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 Tomten wrote:
Necrons are the most technological race.

Absolutely. i guess the better question to ask is who is the second most tech advanced. The eldar are so far out that their tech is dependant on their psionic abilities. though it isnt any less advanced since we cant use it. i guess the best argument to be made is, and i mean this as no offense if you know an exception, but the elderly and new tech. my grandparents have an extremely tough time with computers and my parents with smart phones. just because they cant use it wont make any less of tech. so in first we have concious machines. and in two it seems that we have people who have melded their tech with themselves. up next would be between the Tau and the IoM.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The Adeptus Mechanicus has stuff that simply blows Tau technology out of the water.

To be totally fair, the Tau if given or found the same tech would at lest learn to build it. The Admech has done more the hurt technological innovation within the IoM then anything.

Not necessarily true, as during the Great Crusade and up to the end of the Horus Heresy under the Emperor and the Imperial Truth the Adeptus Mechanicus was actually re-discovering and developing new technologies at a rate unseen since the Golden Age of Technology ended. It can be said that the achievements (both technological and otherwise) made during the two centuries of the Great Crusade are among the few things keeping the Imperium together - I dare say the post-Heresy Imperium has not surpassed the achievements of the Great Crusade, it has only built on them.

That is not the same empire. They were advancing or at lest gaining ground, making new things, improving things. However without someone to strong arm the admech the "faith" has taken over, Rarely do they innovate and often they really have no clue what they are doing. After the HH the admech have stalled and curtailed tech advancement to the point of not even understanding some of the most used tech. They can not make some of the stuff they used in the crusade much less the "holy" dark age tech. I say you are dead wrong the post Heresy Imperium has not built upon anything, its slowly allowed it to die.

True to a certain extent...but I disagree with it not being the same empire; rather its the same empire but lost its way.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
IMHO, Imperial technology is effectively on-par with most Eldar technology, though less efficient. In anti-gravity and psychic technology, the Eldar are peerless, though the Tau's own anti-gravity technology would probably give the Eldar a run for their money. The Tau are also on par with the Eldar regarding plasma technology. Apart from plasma, railgun, and anti-gravity technology, the Tau are generally on-par with the Imperium, though they're outclassed in psychic technology, and overall military and large-scale/interstellar capability. However, no species comes close to rivaling the Necrons, except in psychic engineering, which they completely lack.

Do you have any source on Imperium being on par with Eldar? Pretty much everywhere I read about it says Eldar tech is so advanced it looks like magic to humans.

 Polvilhovoador wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
IMHO, Imperial technology is effectively on-par with most Eldar technology, though less efficient. In anti-gravity and psychic technology, the Eldar are peerless, though the Tau's own anti-gravity technology would probably give the Eldar a run for their money. The Tau are also on par with the Eldar regarding plasma technology. Apart from plasma, railgun, and anti-gravity technology, the Tau are generally on-par with the Imperium, though they're outclassed in psychic technology, and overall military and large-scale/interstellar capability. However, no species comes close to rivaling the Necrons, except in psychic engineering, which they completely lack.

Do you have any source on Imperium being on par with Eldar? Pretty much everywhere I read about it says Eldar tech is so advanced it looks like magic to humans.

As I said, it was my personal opinion. Except in anti-gravity, plasma, and psychic technology, of course. The primary difference is one of efficiency - Eldar technology is undoubtedly of superior design. Most likely because the current level of Imperial technology are incomplete replicas of Golden Age and Great Crusade designs, both of which are derived from the Void Dragon's influence. If the Imperium ever figured how to completely replicate and mass produce those designs, only the Necrons could stop them.

No Dark age humans almost were on pare with eldar the same way 19th century auto manufacturing is on pare with today's standards. They could build some of the same things, way less powerful, thought out and advanced.


The current IoM is on par with Eldar tech as Monkeys are on pare with rocket scientists. The IoM are ignorant children playing with the toys of gods they do not understand and can never build.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
No Dark age humans almost were on pare with eldar the same way 19th century auto manufacturing is on pare with today's standards. They could build some of the same things, way less powerful, thought out and advanced.

Where did this come from? Its a given that Human technology during the Golden Age of Technology was surpassed only by the Eldar at their height and by the Necrons, seeing as Human technology at the time was ultimately based on Necron designs obtained from the Void Dragon but unsullied by techo-religious dogma/doctrine.

The current IoM is on par with Eldar tech as Monkeys are on pare with rocket scientists. The IoM are ignorant children playing with the toys of gods they do not understand and can never build.

True. The post-Heresy Imperium is a slowly crumbling parody of the promise of the Great Crusade.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:

The Tau are not really much more technologically advanced than the IoM, just their technology is more evenly distrubuted through society and better understood.

According to certain sources, the Tau is just as advanced as the Orks (or, to better say, the Orks are just as advanced, as the Tau). And if you think about this, what the heck has the Tau what the others don't (in terms of technology)? "Battlesuits" are commonplace (Imperial power armours), "railguns" are twenty-minutes-into-the-future tech (Eldar shuriken catapults are essentially hand-held, rapid firing railguns) aaaand... I can't recall anything else. On the other side, the Tau doesn't have: teleportation, lance weapons, city sized walkers, actual city walkers, artillery (LOL? LOL!), normal spaceships, and planet-killer weaponry.

So currently, the tech-ranking should be something like this:
- Necrons
- Eldar/Dark Eldar
- IoM/Tyranids
- Tau/Orks

Orks have teleporters, city-sized warkers and artillery. Don't know what you mean my normal spaceships, but assuming you mean with warp drive, orks have them too.
Still debate whether they made said warp drive or not, though.


Using the OP's definition of 'magic weapons' then Eldar are about mid-tier, as most of their weapons, if not all (in the case with Eldar, Not Dark Eldar or Exodites), are made psychically. DE weapons are made normally using slaves, exodites depend


as a whole, though, the eldar race is, on average, about high/mid to high in terms of tech

psh. tech masters here are orks. Most efficient killing machines since the dawn of time.

 cormadepanda wrote:
psh. tech masters here are orks. Most efficient killing machines since the dawn of time.

Orks are dangerous and unpredictable opponents to be sure...but efficient? Wrong - Necrons are.

Well, they are machines... The Necrons, I mean

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Well, they are machines... The Necrons, I mean

Exactly. Living machines. And the basis for Humanity's famed and dreaded Men of Iron.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:


The current IoM is on par with Eldar tech as Monkeys are on pare with rocket scientists. The IoM are ignorant children playing with the toys of gods they do not understand and can never build.

Exactly, the imperium may have some truly powerful technology, but because they have no idea how it works it means they aren't advanced, it means that humanity at the time of the dark age of technology was. Even then, pretty much all imperium technology relies on brute strength. It has none of the finnesse, precision or efficiency that the eldar, necrons and tau have. This precision shows who the true masters of technology are.

reddwarf54 wrote:

Exactly, the imperium may have some truly powerful technology, but because they have no idea how it works it means they aren't advanced, it means that humanity at the time of the dark age of technology was.

Your statement is kinda confusing. Please clarify.

EDIT: Which is why I the Great Crusade-era Imperium holds more appeal for me. Between the Legiones Astartes, the Emperor and the Primarchs, the Imperial Truth, and so many other things the post-Heresy Imperium has so foolishly discarded, IMHO no 41st Millennium faction can hope to stand against that young and vigorous empire.

 Bloody Adair wrote:
The main reason for that phobia would have to do with the Men of Iron, you know? Nothing quiet like your servants and the backbone of the Old Empire rising up and selling you out Skynet style.

I hope that Tau are heading towards a similar event. It would serve them right for not respecting the machine spirits of their technology.

The Warp is an observable, natural phenomenon which many have been able to get repeatable effects from (FTL, for example).

Eldar psychic mastery is therefore science and not magic.

Necron 'science' is unexplained, just happens and needs 'demigods' to use; this is closer to 'magic' in 40k. Here is your magic faction.

They are missing searchlights on their vehicles.

Having hyper-fast skimmer vehicles with no headlights is why the Eldar are a dying race.

 Daba wrote:


Necron 'science' is unexplained, just happens and needs 'demigods' to use; this is closer to 'magic' in 40k. Here is your magic faction.

More like Murphy's Third Law embodied.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
No Dark age humans almost were on pare with eldar the same way 19th century auto manufacturing is on pare with today's standards. They could build some of the same things, way less powerful, thought out and advanced.

Where did this come from? Its a given that Human technology during the Golden Age of Technology was surpassed only by the Eldar at their height and by the Necrons, seeing as Human technology at the time was ultimately based on Necron designs obtained from the Void Dragon but unsullied by techo-religious dogma/doctrine.

Is this your opinion too? Again, all I have read about the subject says how awesome Eldar tech is compared to human's.
Also, wasn't technology from Dark Age better than Golden Age?

 Trickstick wrote:

 Bloody Adair wrote:
The main reason for that phobia would have to do with the Men of Iron, you know? Nothing quiet like your servants and the backbone of the Old Empire rising up and selling you out Skynet style.

I hope that Tau are heading towards a similar event. It would serve them right for not respecting the machine spirits of their technology.

Well, since machine spirits do not exist and one would have to be particularly stupid to bestow a machine with true sentience without giving it equal rights i would say...erm, yes, Hope is the first step on the path to disapointment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Polvilhovoador wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
No Dark age humans almost were on pare with eldar the same way 19th century auto manufacturing is on pare with today's standards. They could build some of the same things, way less powerful, thought out and advanced.

Where did this come from? Its a given that Human technology during the Golden Age of Technology was surpassed only by the Eldar at their height and by the Necrons, seeing as Human technology at the time was ultimately based on Necron designs obtained from the Void Dragon but unsullied by techo-religious dogma/doctrine.

Is this your opinion too? Again, all I have read about the subject says how awesome Eldar tech is compared to human's.
Also, wasn't technology from Dark Age better than Golden Age?

Both ages are one and the same. Besides that, the idea that human tech comes from the Voiddragon, an entity which was more or less destroyed 60 million years ago, is fanspeculation and largely unsupported, even by Mechanicum from which it seems to originate.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
No Dark age humans almost were on pare with eldar the same way 19th century auto manufacturing is on pare with today's standards. They could build some of the same things, way less powerful, thought out and advanced.

Where did this come from? Its a given that Human technology during the Golden Age of Technology was surpassed only by the Eldar at their height and by the Necrons, seeing as Human technology at the time was ultimately based on Necron designs obtained from the Void Dragon but unsullied by techo-religious dogma/doctrine.

The issue being the IoM never lived during the dark age and Dark age humans lived with Eldar at the height of the Eldar race. The Human great crusade tech was not human dark age tech, not by a very, very long shot. And the current IoM tech is a long ways off from even Crusade era tech. The Eldar had sixty million years to refine their own tech base, dark age humans were boot strapped into poor copies of Necron tech. The Crusade era humans were children playing with dark age toys very few understood, the Emperor knowing more about it then most but even he could not grasp Eldar tech( he tried and failed)

You are counting crusade era and dark age tech as the same thing, they are not. Crusade era tech is well below Dark age technology, that itself is well below that of the Eldar.

One aspect of technology that i don't think has been addressed yet is that of design. It is quite possible for a less technologically advanced piece of equipment to outperform a more advanced one, simply because it is a much superior design.
I think the IoM continuing use of ancient designs is a good demonstration. The rhino, for example is an ancient design, and is very rugged, highly adaptable, and simple. its a very very good design that gets the job done. While it may be technologically backwards, it is nontheless a very good transport. A more advanced vehicle, such as a DE raider, is certainly more technologically advanced, but is more lightly armoured, easier to damage and far more vulnerable to small arms.
The very fact that the IoM continues to survive, despite the backwards nature of its society, despite the fact that technological innovation is almost nonexistant, and despite the fact that you could say the technology base is arguably inferior, suggests that their vehicles are well designed, and they still have the ability to manufacture, still have the ability to organise and so forth.

Also, don't forget that a technological advantage can derive from the most simple of things, and isn't necessarily related to how good your weapons or armour are, advantages can derive from organisation, and communication.
When the German army rolled straight over the French and British in 1940, the main advantage the germans had wasn't that their tanks were better (they were worse) not that their planes were better (they weren't) not that their artillery was better (it wasn't) it was due to the simple fact that every single german unit, and vehicle had a 2 way radio, so while the better armed and armoured french tanks had to communicate with flags, or simply get out and run over to their command tank for instructions, The germans could simply get their instructions by radio, and coordinate close cooperation between different arms.

So, yes, the Eldar, necrons, and arguably Tau have a higher level of technology than the IoM, but its not significantly better (like machineguns versus a unit of pikemen) The IoM has more basic technology, but also well designed equipment that does the job

Perfect Organism wrote:

nomotog wrote:
Items like soul stones or wrathbone feel more like magic then actual tech. The line I draw is that tech items can be made and used by a race that lacks pykers.

By that standard, the craftworld Eldar are effectively medieval. Every advanced technology they have is dependent on psionics to some extent.

The problem with talking about 40k technology without 'magic' is that magic is so well integrated into many races technology you can barely distiguish where one ends and the other begins. Only the Tau and the Necrons don't mix magic with technology. The Imperium at least has a tech-base which doesn't seem to require any magic, which I'd say is better than the Tau's (but not so widely available to most). Ork technology without magic would probably mostly work, but be horribly unreliable. I guess they can be called high-tech in some ways (only a little behind the imperium) but with terrible quality control they compensate for with psionics.

That's it! Tag it bag it, that's my new view of the Eldar.

madtankbloke wrote:
One aspect of technology that i don't think has been addressed yet is that of design. It is quite possible for a less technologically advanced piece of equipment to outperform a more advanced one, simply because it is a much superior design.
I think the IoM continuing use of ancient designs is a good demonstration.

Those "Ancient" designs however are from a time where the technology was much more advanced then the current IoM tech level. They were designed ( mostly likely by A.I systems) to be rugged and easily crafted by lower tech worlds. The IoM more or less uses an "Idiots guide" made by people far move advanced then they.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

madtankbloke wrote:
One aspect of technology that i don't think has been addressed yet is that of design. It is quite possible for a less technologically advanced piece of equipment to outperform a more advanced one, simply because it is a much superior design.
I think the IoM continuing use of ancient designs is a good demonstration.

Those "Ancient" designs however are from a time where the technology was much more advanced then the current IoM tech level. They were designed ( mostly likely by A.I systems) to be rugged and easily crafted by lower tech worlds. The IoM more or less uses an "Idiots guide" made by people far move advanced then they.

Incorrect. The STCs which you call 'idiots guides' were designed for use by people who didn't know how the designs in the STCs worked. That's why they were made to simply pump out schematics for designs as needed. In fact, it can be argued that STCs were designed for such situations as the Imperium is in.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:


The issue being the IoM never lived during the dark age and Dark age humans lived with Eldar at the height of the Eldar race. The Human great crusade tech was not human dark age tech, not by a very, very long shot. And the current IoM tech is a long ways off from even Crusade era tech. The Eldar had sixty million years to refine their own tech base, dark age humans were boot strapped into poor copies of Necron tech. The Crusade era humans were children playing with dark age toys very few understood, the Emperor knowing more about it then most but even he could not grasp Eldar tech( he tried and failed)

And yet their achievements are the only things keeping the tottering Imperium together. You underestimate 31k Humans too much.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:


Incorrect. The STCs which you call 'idiots guides' were designed for use by people who didn't know how the designs in the STCs worked. That's why they were made to simply pump out schematics for designs as needed. In fact, it can be argued that STCs were designed for such situations as the Imperium is in.

The Term STC could mean a few things and is often used as a "throw away" term for plans or anything from the dark age really. STC as it is commonly used seems to mean blue prints from the dark age, often step by step idiot proof ones. From the back lore it looks to me a "full" STC was more then likely a self away A.I powered nano factory that cracked out items as needed with what it had around. Most STC the IoM uses are those recovered from colonies, sent on colony ships and yes made to be "Idiot guides" for folks that did not totally understand them.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:


And yet their achievements are the only things keeping the tottering Imperium together. You underestimate 31k Humans too much.

Not at all, force and power held it together then and do so now. Most of the civilized nations the IoM took down in the crusades seemed to look at them as little more then what they are, Techno barbarians with little or no understanding of the machines they use. They however did have numbers on there side, even when they did not have Superior technology. The First few HH books showed 2 or three cultures that easily rivaled or surpassed the IoM technology. They however did not have the numbers.

You keep thinking the crusade era Humans were "advanced" when really everything they had was built upon recovered dark age tech. Even Space Marine armor is of Dark Age design.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:


Not at all, force and power held it together then and do so now. Most of the civilized nations the IoM took down in the crusades seemed to look at them as little more then what they are, Techno barbarians with little or no understanding of the machines they use. They however did have numbers on there side, even when they did not have Superior technology. The First few HH books showed 2 or three cultures that easily rivaled or surpassed the IoM technology. They however did not have the numbers.

You keep thinking the crusade era Humans were "advanced" when really everything they had was built upon recovered dark age tech. Even Space Marine armor is of Dark Age design.

Actually, they did understand their technology at the time, otherwise they wouldn't have developed them quickly enough to expand and keep up with the Emperor's ambitions. True, the Mechanicum also had dogma and doctrine back then, but at the time the only prohibition was AI technology. So long as the prohibition was honored, creativity and innovation were actively pursued.

No, they understood some of the tech, far from all . They had lost more understanding then most races ever learn. Crusade era humans were techno barbarians without full understanding of the tech they used. A read at almost any of the HH novels tells you this. Do you think the archaic terms and backward thinking is new for the IoM? It was there from day 1.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
No, they understood some of the tech, far from all . They had lost more understanding then most races ever learn. Crusade era humans were techno barbarians without full understanding of the tech they used. A read at almost any of the HH novels tells you this. Do you think the archaic terms and backward thinking is new for the IoM? It was there from day 1.

Things were already making a turn for the better when the Horus Heresy broke out, with the establishment of the Council of Terra, the Order of Remembrancers, and the construction of the Imperial Webway.

I would disagree with that. They understood some things, but honestly it was not getting better. They were still barbarians with some tech. As for the webway thing, that just goes to show not even the Emperor himself had the slightest clue how it worked. He was playing with things he did not understand.

The important consideration is that while the early Imperium and the current one both lacked complete understanding, the Crusade era was about developement, of moving forwards. Rather than slowly declining like the current IoM, they were taking steps forwards.

They didn't fully grasp the tech they were using, but they were trying to understand it. The current IoM and AdMech are, by and large, not.