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 Admiral Valerian wrote:
@SkyD

Tau cannot decisively defeat or face the Imperium. The difference in power is too great. Not to mention their lack of psychic abilities will render vulnerable against either Chaos, Necrons or the Eldar. After all, who do you think will rule man's heart after the Imperium falls but Chaos?

The Imperium isn't the "top dog" so to speak because of their technology or abilities at war. They're there because they are an STD aimed in a singular direction. They can throw the numbers at what they are fighting. But they suffer because they rapidly expanded without taking into consideration the need to fortify as they go. They spread themselves too thin. By the time the Imperium can organise to get to most planets, they're already long fallen. If the Orks were able to unify under one Warboss, they would spread like an even worse STD than the IOM are.
But had the IOM during the Great Crusade taken the advice of say, the Thousand Sons, who were keen on knowledge and understanding, there wouldn't be a Chaos to fight, they had already encountered splinters from Mankind who had no problems with the Ruinous Powers. The Imperium in its rush to conquer eliminated the knowledge they would require to make an outright defeat. Thanks to the Horus Heresy series of books we learn the Emperor launched the crusade before he had actually united his core world, Terra. (Prospero Burns).

What I was saying in my post above is just on the Tau and Imperial Technology, which is on a similar kind of level. But IOM has factors they are willing to accept in their technology, where as Tau strive for refining and more perfection. The Mechanicus itself is to blame for the stalemate, they do not like people going away from the plan, it is set out as A-B-C. They shun and/or outright kill members who take A-B-C and add D, which refines the power, or increases range, etc. If its not in the plan, its heresy. The Tau, work on their tech when needed.

They don't have the numbers to become a dominant force. They never will, but they do tinker away at developing technology whenever a threat comes up. Given time, like the Olamic Quietude, they could develop battlesuits that have the ability to counter threats automatically. Quietude would be immune to IOM weapons in X (minutes). The immunity shared over an entire force, in no time. They fell because the Space Wolves were a much more ferocious fighting force than they could counter. But the IOM now compared to then, doesn't have the time. A Tau threat must be dealt with in Y time frame, because any longer a Chaos/Ork/Necron/etc threat develops and that takes higher precedence. If the Imperium were to shrink back and fortify and concrete their position then threats from Orks, Eldar and Dark Eldar would be better handled. Eliminating the threat of Chaos is harder, they created an environment where the taint of Chaos has an easier ability to thrive. People lose hope or become disheartened by life within the IOM, the Ruinous Powers are there to make it better.

Often and a lot .

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
Often and a lot .

What? Abusive precursors? The slaves languishing in the pits of Commoragh know that all too well.

nomotog wrote:

Perfect Organism wrote:

nomotog wrote:
Items like soul stones or wrathbone feel more like magic then actual tech. The line I draw is that tech items can be made and used by a race that lacks pykers.

By that standard, the craftworld Eldar are effectively medieval. Every advanced technology they have is dependent on psionics to some extent.

The problem with talking about 40k technology without 'magic' is that magic is so well integrated into many races technology you can barely distiguish where one ends and the other begins. Only the Tau and the Necrons don't mix magic with technology. The Imperium at least has a tech-base which doesn't seem to require any magic, which I'd say is better than the Tau's (but not so widely available to most). Ork technology without magic would probably mostly work, but be horribly unreliable. I guess they can be called high-tech in some ways (only a little behind the imperium) but with terrible quality control they compensate for with psionics.

That's it! Tag it bag it, that's my new view of the Eldar.

Does that mean we are in medieval stasis because we depend so much on electricity?

The Warp is natural in 40k; using it is engineering. Not being able to use and understand the warp is similar to not being able to use and understand electricity.

 Daba wrote:

nomotog wrote:

Perfect Organism wrote:

nomotog wrote:
Items like soul stones or wrathbone feel more like magic then actual tech. The line I draw is that tech items can be made and used by a race that lacks pykers.

By that standard, the craftworld Eldar are effectively medieval. Every advanced technology they have is dependent on psionics to some extent.

The problem with talking about 40k technology without 'magic' is that magic is so well integrated into many races technology you can barely distiguish where one ends and the other begins. Only the Tau and the Necrons don't mix magic with technology. The Imperium at least has a tech-base which doesn't seem to require any magic, which I'd say is better than the Tau's (but not so widely available to most). Ork technology without magic would probably mostly work, but be horribly unreliable. I guess they can be called high-tech in some ways (only a little behind the imperium) but with terrible quality control they compensate for with psionics.

That's it! Tag it bag it, that's my new view of the Eldar.

Does that mean we are in medieval stasis because we depend so much on electricity?

The Warp is natural in 40k; using it is engineering. Not being able to use and understand the warp is similar to not being able to use and understand electricity.

You mean that Necrons dont understand electricity?

SkyD wrote:
What I was saying in my post above is just on the Tau and Imperial Technology, which is on a similar kind of level. But IOM has factors they are willing to accept in their technology, where as Tau strive for refining and more perfection. The Mechanicus itself is to blame for the stalemate, they do not like people going away from the plan, it is set out as A-B-C. They shun and/or outright kill members who take A-B-C and add D, which refines the power, or increases range, etc. If its not in the plan, its heresy. The Tau, work on their tech when needed.

Clarification: The Mechanicus shun nonmembers who take ABC and add D. There's plenty of Mechanicus who do research and develop new things. The Divine Light of Sollex, for example, is a group entirely dedicated to improving weapons. They have gravimancy research stations, weapon testing facilities for new designs, and so on. They're not reviled as a cult or seen as particularly unusual beyond their obsession with weaponry. The Tenninites work on upgrading Machine Spirit code, constantly terrified they'll improve it too much and create an AI.

The Imperium is stagnant for a wide variety of compounding factors (Techpriests hoard information rather than distribute new findings, factional infighting within the mechanicus, the Admech's insistence that only a tiny fraction of the populace (namely, the Admech) be allowed to have any idea how anything works and actually actively hunting down rogue scientists, the terrible interstellar communications systems that make it nigh-impossible to share information if they wanted to, etc) but there is not an inherent belief that anything new is evil. There is a view that anything old is better, and that doesn't help, but progress is being made by inches.

 Tomten wrote:

 Daba wrote:

Does that mean we are in medieval stasis because we depend so much on electricity?

The Warp is natural in 40k; using it is engineering. Not being able to use and understand the warp is similar to not being able to use and understand electricity.

You mean that Necrons dont understand electricity?

No. What he's saying is that technology must be seen from the perspective of the user, not outside race. 95% of our technology would be completely useless for blind, deaf, aquatic (acidic?), high gravity, claw-handed race.
The above crab thing from Omicron Persei 8 won't be able to use a computer to play GTA 5 but that doesn't mean computer is suddenly less complex than a knife.

We create our technology that is supposed to be used with sight / hearing and hands / legs.
Eldar create technology that they interact with their minds. No difference.

Oh i see

 Daba wrote:

nomotog wrote:

Perfect Organism wrote:

nomotog wrote:
Items like soul stones or wrathbone feel more like magic then actual tech. The line I draw is that tech items can be made and used by a race that lacks pykers.

By that standard, the craftworld Eldar are effectively medieval. Every advanced technology they have is dependent on psionics to some extent.

The problem with talking about 40k technology without 'magic' is that magic is so well integrated into many races technology you can barely distiguish where one ends and the other begins. Only the Tau and the Necrons don't mix magic with technology. The Imperium at least has a tech-base which doesn't seem to require any magic, which I'd say is better than the Tau's (but not so widely available to most). Ork technology without magic would probably mostly work, but be horribly unreliable. I guess they can be called high-tech in some ways (only a little behind the imperium) but with terrible quality control they compensate for with psionics.

That's it! Tag it bag it, that's my new view of the Eldar.

Does that mean we are in medieval stasis because we depend so much on electricity?

The Warp is natural in 40k; using it is engineering. Not being able to use and understand the warp is similar to not being able to use and understand electricity.

Maybe if hooking up your toaster required you to use psychic powers. You can use the warp as part of your tech and still have it as tech, like a warp drive, but if your tech requires innate physic powers then it's really closer to a magic wand then a light switch.

nomotog wrote:

Maybe if hooking up your toaster required you to use psychic powers. You can use the warp as part of your tech and still have it as tech, like a warp drive, but if your tech requires innate physic powers then it's really closer to a magic wand then a light switch.

Not necessarily. The Imperium has gene-encoded safeties on weapons, preventing them from being used to their full potential (ie the Spear of Telesto). This is similar in effect to the Eldar weaponry and technology. It doesn't function in a non-eldar's hands because they are not capable of 'flicking the right switch to arm the weapon'. Yes, there may also be mind/psychic impulses that cause a weapon to fire, but the Imperium uses that just as well. MIU's, Space Marine Power Armor, Dreadnought sarcophagi, and countless other machinery use this same principle.

It could be debated that force weapons (a mixture of psychic and engineering technology) fall under the same thread. Being that they are technologically created, however require a psychic input to activate.

So yes, while the eldar machinery require a psychic impulse to activate it at the very least, that doesn't exactly make it 'magic'. Especially how regimented the eldar are with their psychic abilities. To me it just seems as if their technology was adapted to their physiology, pretty much as Macok described above.

nomotog wrote:

 Daba wrote:

nomotog wrote:

Perfect Organism wrote:

nomotog wrote:
Items like soul stones or wrathbone feel more like magic then actual tech. The line I draw is that tech items can be made and used by a race that lacks pykers.

By that standard, the craftworld Eldar are effectively medieval. Every advanced technology they have is dependent on psionics to some extent.

The problem with talking about 40k technology without 'magic' is that magic is so well integrated into many races technology you can barely distiguish where one ends and the other begins. Only the Tau and the Necrons don't mix magic with technology. The Imperium at least has a tech-base which doesn't seem to require any magic, which I'd say is better than the Tau's (but not so widely available to most). Ork technology without magic would probably mostly work, but be horribly unreliable. I guess they can be called high-tech in some ways (only a little behind the imperium) but with terrible quality control they compensate for with psionics.

That's it! Tag it bag it, that's my new view of the Eldar.

Does that mean we are in medieval stasis because we depend so much on electricity?

The Warp is natural in 40k; using it is engineering. Not being able to use and understand the warp is similar to not being able to use and understand electricity.

Maybe if hooking up your toaster required you to use psychic powers. You can use the warp as part of your tech and still have it as tech, like a warp drive, but if your tech requires innate physic powers then it's really closer to a magic wand then a light switch.

Eldar stuff still works mechanically, though the psychic activation does provide a nice safety catch or security specifically because it gets in the way.

Their guns still work on the principle of pull the trigger and the mans fall down.

Dark Eldar technology, which have the same principles and knowledge base, do not require any psychic ability to use or even manufacture. They still understand the warp and can construct warp drives (BFG fleet) and use the webway.

Captain Avynn wrote:

nomotog wrote:

Maybe if hooking up your toaster required you to use psychic powers. You can use the warp as part of your tech and still have it as tech, like a warp drive, but if your tech requires innate physic powers then it's really closer to a magic wand then a light switch.

Not necessarily. The Imperium has gene-encoded safeties on weapons, preventing them from being used to their full potential (ie the Spear of Telesto). This is similar in effect to the Eldar weaponry and technology. It doesn't function in a non-eldar's hands because they are not capable of 'flicking the right switch to arm the weapon'. Yes, there may also be mind/psychic impulses that cause a weapon to fire, but the Imperium uses that just as well. MIU's, Space Marine Power Armor, Dreadnought sarcophagi, and countless other machinery use this same principle.

It could be debated that force weapons (a mixture of psychic and engineering technology) fall under the same thread. Being that they are technologically created, however require a psychic input to activate.

So yes, while the eldar machinery require a psychic impulse to activate it at the very least, that doesn't exactly make it 'magic'. Especially how regimented the eldar are with their psychic abilities. To me it just seems as if their technology was adapted to their physiology, pretty much as Macok described above.

Putting a gene lock on a weapon is a little different because the weapon dosen't require the lock to be there, it's just something you required because you wanted to. If eldar tech can work with out being physic that's tech. I'm not an expert on eldar tech. It kind of depend on the role the pyker plays in it's operation.

But given that every Eldar is a psyker, having something psychically (sp?) activated is just as normal and mundane to them as something needing hands to operate is to us. Just because i uses a sense or "appendage" most humans don't have doesn't make it magic.

 washout77 wrote:
The Eldar can be argued as THE most technologically advanced army in the game, runner up being the Tau. I thin they are ABOUT even, with the Tau advancing tech in a different direction than the Eldar with Tau tech being more overall and Eldar tech basically being for pure war purposes (for obvious reasons)

Yeah the IoM is not tech advanced at all really. They used to be, a lot, but the huge technophobia killed that. Most of their tech is really based on religion and old STC's of when they were tech advanced

I would say dark eldar are more advanced than their craftworld cousins, sure they dont grow their weapons, vehicles, and ships but everything else shows that they invest more in technology than craftworld eldar seeing that the DE cant use pskyer abilities in the webway.

If this is hard to read sorry just got back from christmas drinks with family.

Well both eldar are starting with the same tech base. However Dark Eldar simply went another way as they lost the Pskyer powers. But given as the Eldar race as been around 60 million years I do not think the Dark Eldar made anything new, just fell back on stuff they had long ago stopped using.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
Well both eldar are starting with the same tech base. However Dark Eldar simply went another way as they lost the Pskyer powers. But given as the Eldar race as been around 60 million years I do not think the Dark Eldar made anything new, just fell back on stuff they had long ago stopped using.

Whether its Dark Eldar or the Craftworld Eldar, they're both as stagnant as the Imperium. No real progress, just living in memory of the past.

I agree with that mostly, but unlike the IoM they have full knowledge of the tech base. They simply have less need to use it

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
I agree with that mostly, but unlike the IoM they have full knowledge of the tech base. They simply have less need to use it

I agree, but at the risk of going off-topic, I'd just like to point out that at its founding and its golden age during the Great Crusade, the Imperium did understand its technology, establishing the technology base which would enable its crumbling post-Heresy successor to survive for ten thousand years and more. Given the Mechanicum was actually starting to innovate when the Horus Heresy broke out, I'd say the Imperium was actually making good progress at the start...

well at founding it was trying to understand . It knew the basics but did not grasp to much of the dark age stuff, other then a few heads of mars and the Big E.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
well at founding it was trying to understand . It knew the basics but did not grasp to much of the dark age stuff, other then a few heads of mars and the Big E.

Yeah, that's true. Though in the novel Mechanicum, it was clear that they were starting to understand what might be considered as the 'meat' of Mankind's lost technological legacy, and by building/innovating on that (such as the noosphere and the Golden Throne) were beginning to make what could be considered as the first real steps to reclaiming said legacy.

I have yet to read that one, was told it was not well written. I have read the "summary" of it however. I am not a fan of the of the 40k writers, some are...rough reading.

I was however thinking of one of the early HH books, one or two maybe when they run into the tech based Human civ and all SM's and Horus himself was a bit shocked to see all the Humans in SM power armor. That showed to me that most did not understand they were even using dark age tech, but thought it was items the big E or the Admech had crafted for them.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
I have yet to read that one, was told it was not well written. I have read the "summary" of it however. I am not a fan of the of the 40k writers, some are...rough reading.

That's up to the reader though, IMO.

I was however thinking of one of the early HH books, one or two maybe when they run into the tech based Human civ and all SM's and Horus himself was a bit shocked to see all the Humans in SM power armor. That showed to me that most did not understand they were even using dark age tech, but thought it was items the big E or the Admech had crafted for them.

The Emperor most certainly understood (he was alive at the time after all, and even IRL there are indications the Human brain has potentially limitless memory space), and the Mechanicum had a different mind-set at the time: instead of rote learning, understanding and building on what was understood was the law of the day. True, it was still bound by dogma and doctrine, and they did monopolize technology, but they also understood how it worked.

I say some understood, most not all. I mean they knew more then now, but they also most likely were more spilized with the leadership knowing most. Some would have known dark age tech, most would not have but would have known how stuff they were assigned to work on really worked.

Off topic but if ya ever played battletech the old comstar vs the post Tukayyid Comstar is a really good exsample of per and post herasy admech.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
I say some understood, most not all. I mean they knew more then now, but they also most likely were more spilized with the leadership knowing most. Some would have known dark age tech, most would not have but would have known how stuff they were assigned to work on really worked.

Probably true, that only the magi actually knew how everything (or as close to everything) worked, while the rest only understood their individual specializations. But they did understand: the whole Imperium was working for the future at the time as opposed to living in memory of the past.

Off topic but if ya ever played battletech the old comstar vs the post Tukayyid Comstar is a really good exsample of per and post herasy admech.

Haven't tried that, will have to look it up.

Basically pre Tukayyid Comstar used rout learning, they knew how to make tech work, but it was so rolled up in religion that they really had no clue what they were doing. They had damned high tech, but most of it was simply maintained and built with little real understanding. You said the incantations to holy Blake as you went though the "rites"

After the Battle of Tukayyid, however the new heads more or less banished all the religious mobo jombo and tried to really understand the tech. Which lead to a split, but thats a whole other subject.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
Basically pre Tukayyid Comstar used rout learning, they knew how to make tech work, but it was so rolled up in religion that they really had no clue what they were doing. They had damned high tech, but most of it was simply maintained and built with little real understanding. You said the incantations to holy Blake as you went though the "rites"

After the Battle of Tukayyid, however the new heads more or less banished all the religious mobo jombo and tried to really understand the tech. Which lead to a split, but thats a whole other subject.

That's the Adeptus Mechanicus, alright...come to think of it, I read this piece once from an another forum that the Imperium might actually be closer to unlocking the secrets of the Golden Age of Technology. The key? The semi-mythical Ark Mechanicus vessels. Apparently, an Archmagos linked himself to the ship's Machine Spirit and accidentally unlocked some inactive and unknown systems that allowed the ship to easily overpower an Eldar ambush (which the Eldar are almost always guaranteed to win) by itself. Unfortunately, said Archmagos somehow forgot everything once the link to the Machine Spirit was severed. It actually makes sense though, since those ships are even older than the Imperium itself.

even if they Unlocked it, they would not understand it or call it Heresy. Most of the Dark age tech to me seems built upon idea's and a tech base to far left for the admech.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
even if they Unlocked it, they would not understand it or call it Heresy. Most of the Dark age tech to me seems built upon idea's and a tech base to far left for the admech.

True...the Great Crusade-era Mechanicum would, but the post-Heresy Adeptus Mechanicus...the only way it wouldn't be heresy or they would actually understand it is if the Ark Mechanicus logic engines unknowingly carry an STC database. Which they can understand; IIRC, a partial STC data transcript (for a combat knife no less) recovered by a pair of Astartes (or was it Guardsmen) led to them becoming instant nobility, as they were both rewarded by the Imperium with an entire planet each. And the STC files for the Land Speeder (recovered from the underground Martian labyrinth) was quickly understood and put into production. As long as its an STC, even the post-Heresy Adeptus Mechanicus should be able to put it to use.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
I agree with that mostly, but unlike the IoM they have full knowledge of the tech base. They simply have less need to use it

I agree, but at the risk of going off-topic, I'd just like to point out that at its founding and its golden age during the Great Crusade, the Imperium did understand its technology, establishing the technology base which would enable its crumbling post-Heresy successor to survive for ten thousand years and more. Given the Mechanicum was actually starting to innovate when the Horus Heresy broke out, I'd say the Imperium was actually making good progress at the start...

I disagree. Reading Mechanicum i got that impression that even during the Great Crusade the Mechanicum was steeped into mysticism and dogma. The few techpriests who were truly interested in understanding how their technology worked and even inovated were a minority.

 KingDeath wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
I agree with that mostly, but unlike the IoM they have full knowledge of the tech base. They simply have less need to use it

I agree, but at the risk of going off-topic, I'd just like to point out that at its founding and its golden age during the Great Crusade, the Imperium did understand its technology, establishing the technology base which would enable its crumbling post-Heresy successor to survive for ten thousand years and more. Given the Mechanicum was actually starting to innovate when the Horus Heresy broke out, I'd say the Imperium was actually making good progress at the start...

I disagree. Reading Mechanicum i got that impression that even during the Great Crusade the Mechanicum was steeped into mysticism and dogma. The few techpriests who were truly interested in understanding how their technology worked and even inovated were a minority.

I never said they weren't mired in doctrine and dogma, only that they understood what they working on and with. We'll just have to agree to disagree on that.