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While someone other is Humans having an STC might have once been posable, after 20'000 years it is unlikely to ever happen. The Tau tech base looks nothing like the dark age human tech base.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
While someone other is Humans having an STC might have once been posable, after 20'000 years it is unlikely to ever happen. The Tau tech base looks nothing like the dark age human tech base.

Exactly. The Imperium's tech base is completely of STC design (except for Titans). Assuming they could use an STC (which I doubt), their technology would have to look like that of the Imperium.

I do not dought anyone could have used them, its simply its been 20'000 years since there was one to use. I am not sure titans are not STC myself, but I am sure the Tau's tech base is not an STCV based one.

I have a couple ideas on the various topics at hand.

First of all, I don't believe that psyker based technology should be discounted as there's every indication that being able to use psyker powers is as simple as manipulating ones genome to be more "in-tune" with the warp. This is just genetic sciences taken to an extreme.

Secondly, one of the templates for comparing the technological advancement of a culture that I really like is the tier system used in the halo franchise. I do admit that as far as story stuff goes halo is eh, but the tier system is quite interesting, here's a link if anyone is curious: http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Technological_Achievement_Tiers .

While alot of these tiers are focused toward the technology of the halo universe we can find their parrallel in this universe. The tier system, though my understanding of it, is based off of the kind of energy the race can produce, the FTL ability of the race, their ability with AI and other advanced technology and their control of the laws of physics.

To answer the OP: yes, the Eldar are high tech because, even though their avenue to this is through psychic talents, they have the ability to manipulate the laws of physics to create and move almost without limit.





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I looked at how the universes interlap a bit more and I believe that the four traits that should be looked at instead are: the FTL ability of the race, how much they have expanded beyond their own homeworld, how advanced of technology they can reliably impliment and how much they can manipulate the laws of physics.


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So using an improvisation of the tier system here is my ranking of each race technologically:

Eldar: Yhrough the webway they have exceptionally reliable and stable warp travel (tier 1)
Have exapanded accross the whole galaxy (tier 1)
With their technology they can create things that most mortals would consider god-like (tier 1)
Created the craftworlds and manipulate the laws of physcis off-hand (tier 1)

Necrons: Tapped into part of the webway and use it for the logistics of their empire (tier 2)
Are a galactic level force (tier 1)
Have frequently created world sized contructs and have apparently magical technologies (tier 1)
Created the blackstone fortresses and other such physics bending technologies (tier 1)

Dark Eldar: Use parts of the webway for raids (tier 2)
Have expanded slightly from regions near webway portals (tier 2)
Created their home in the webway, commoragh, and have other such technologies (tier 1)
Manipulate physics regularly in their common technology (tier 1)

IOM: Via the astronomicon, navigators and warp engines they have good FTL travel (tier 2)
Are the dominant galactic power (tier 1)
Have reliable advanced technologies, however crude they are (tier 2)
Can manipulate physics to a functional degree, using EM and atomic forces freely (tier 3)

Orks: Use functional but ultimately unreliable warp travel (tier 3)
Have expanded beyond the galaxy known by the IOM (tier 1)
Though their tech is ramshackle, many of their higher achievement are somewhat reliable (tier 3)
Have a respectably ability to manipulate EM and atomic forces (tier 3)

Tau: Have no real FTL ability (tier 4)
Have expanded to fill their region of the galaxy (tier 2)
Capable of using fairly advanced technology freely (tier 2)
Can manipulate EM and atomic forces freely (tier 3)

Tyranids: Have no real FTL ability (tier 4)
Are an intergalactic force (tier 1)
Emulate most advanced technologies though biological means (tier 3)
Only have a limited manipulation of physics though biological means (tier 4)

Also for fun i looked over Chaos and the Old Ones and both appear to be tier 0 powers

In the 40K universe, psychic energy is another form of energy, like electrmagnetism or gravity. It can be manipulated and turned to other things like heat or matter. The only difference is that it seems to be only manipulated by living creatures and seems to have a set of rules of its own. Manipulating it in a consistent reliable fashion to craft objects or perform tasks is still a form of technology so the fact that Eldar civilization is based on psychic energy should not discount them from being considered. They still use technological things like lasers and plasma but the means in which they go about achieving these or powering these technologies may be psychic. All Eldar are psychic to some degree (atrophied in the case of Dark Eldar), so them basing their civilization around an ability they all naturally have is no different from humans creating a civilization around color vision.

I do not get it myself. Sure some or most races can not use their tech, but simply because it is psyker based for the most part does not mean it is not tech. It is made for the race that uses it. Kinda lik saying glasses are not tech because another race lacks eyes.

Void__Dragon (page 1): Gravity isn't a weak force. Force can't be weak, it is work a measurement. Think of a pound of lead and a pound of feathers - one just happen to naturally take up more space but they are both equal. When someone says gravity is weak they mean that gravity needs excessive amount of mass to make a gravity well of a certain force. Now, I don't know if it is science fiction or actual science, but gravity should be a lot stronger and is likely being distributed through more than three dimensions.

Think of it this way, Craftworld Guardians run around with mass-produced weapons that carries with them a stable gravity field - essentially a simulated mass equal or large then the mass of a Sol.

It is sort of silly, though. A gravity field less than a metre long capable to accelerating projectiles beyond 100m/s should cause all sorts of upsets beyond the projectile muzzle.

laginess: Chaos Gods or Chaos Space Marines?

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
I do not get it myself. Sure some or most races can not use their tech, but simply because it is psyker based for the most part does not mean it is not tech. It is made for the race that uses it. Kinda lik saying glasses are not tech because another race lacks eyes.

That's a Farly good example. Though if you had a race with glasses, and a race with cyborg eyes. Which one is more high tech?

nomotog wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
I do not get it myself. Sure some or most races can not use their tech, but simply because it is psyker based for the most part does not mean it is not tech. It is made for the race that uses it. Kinda lik saying glasses are not tech because another race lacks eyes.

That's a Farly good example. Though if you had a race with glasses, and a race with cyborg eyes. Which one is more high tech?

Its not in what they use but what they can make. If race one can not make cyber eyes then they are lower in tech then the race that can. Humans for example use tech much higher in technology then they currently understand or can make.

@Mahtamori: Chaos gods, I'm far to lazy to try and figure out CSM


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@hunterinthedarkness: I completely get what you're saying with humans not being able to recreate alot of their higher end tech and I'd like to add that alot of the other races (necrons, eldar and dark eldar) cannot recreate their highest achievements either. The only ones that can are what could be considered thriving species aka the orks, tyranids and tau.

I am not sure I agree with the Eldar and Necrons not being able to. They just really do not have a need for many things. Dark Eldar have fallen back to older tech, but that does not mean it is "lesser" technology.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
I am not sure I agree with the Eldar and Necrons not being able to. They just really do not have a need for many things. Dark Eldar have fallen back to older tech, but that does not mean it is "lesser" technology.

Necrons should still be able to build their highest-tier tech. Eldar? I don't think so. They can't expand the Webway anymore, nor can they build any more of the Blackstone Fortresses or any other of their highest-tier tech.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
I am not sure I agree with the Eldar and Necrons not being able to. They just really do not have a need for many things. Dark Eldar have fallen back to older tech, but that does not mean it is "lesser" technology.

DE Codex says DE tech is better than CWE's.

Humm ya could be correct on the CWE, after all they are more or less the Amish of Eldar in many ways. I guess ya have to look at it as No Eldar civ is the per-Iom Civ, they however are descended from it.

 Polvilhovoador wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
I am not sure I agree with the Eldar and Necrons not being able to. They just really do not have a need for many things. Dark Eldar have fallen back to older tech, but that does not mean it is "lesser" technology.

DE Codex says DE tech is better than CWE's.

Actually it doesn't. Somebody is is misremembering or being overly enthusiastic in favor of the Dark Eldar.

What it does say is:

Though it is manufactured instead of psychically grown, the weaponry of the Dark Eldar is just as advanced as that used upon the Eldar Craftworlds.

p. 5, Dark Eldar Codex

The phrase "as advanced" means equality, not superiority.

The better term is each races technology has gone forward in different ways. I have not looked deeply in the craftworld eldar codex mostly out of dislike so my bias would show and i am sorry about my lack of knowledge.

 Gabrial Seth wrote:
The better term is each races technology has gone forward in different ways. I have not looked deeply in the craftworld eldar codex mostly out of dislike so my bias would show and i am sorry about my lack of knowledge.

There isn't much to see. The codex mostly talk about the pantheon and the culture. It hardly even have pictures of how the weapons look like. Best reference material for Eldar technology is Gav Thorpe's trilogy books, but you'll have to do without the easy value statements you get in all the codexes.

Im suprised while everyone was listing races based on tech level no one mentioned Chaos Space marines who are far more open to inovation since they experiment with combining machines and deamonic forces together on this basis they could form entire attack forces of deamon machnes without ever sacrificing a single marine.

-----

 Overlord Zerrtin wrote:
Im suprised while everyone was listing races based on tech level no one mentioned Chaos Space marines who are far more open to inovation since they experiment with combining machines and deamonic forces together on this basis they could form entire attack forces of deamon machnes without ever sacrificing a single marine.

I think there's a certain level of "It is because I say it" with anything involving Chaos. The Eldar, IoM, and Necrons are all technologically advanced due to years of research and creation. There was a progression from inferior to superior technology. Even the Necrons and Eldar undoubtedly went through a period where they lacked interstellar travel due to technological limits. The Eldar developed their technology over millions of years of accretion. At one point, it may be safe to assume they lacked the ability to psychically affect anything (or really, lacked the knowledge of that ability). The Necrons, likewise developed their technology over aeons. Eventually, the Necrons basically got to the end of science and reason, just staring off into the Abyss. Chaos is closer to Ork tech. It doesn't work based on principles of science and engineering (regardless of how arcane or advanced). In the case of Chaos, it works because it's imbued with demonic magic. In the case of Orks, it works because they are orks.

 washout77 wrote:
The Eldar can be argued as THE most technologically advanced army in the game, runner up being the Orks

Fixed that for you.

Psychic technology is still technology after all.

 Melissia wrote:

 washout77 wrote:
The Eldar can be argued as THE most technologically advanced army in the game, runner up being the Orks

Fixed that for you.

Psychic technology is still technology after all.

I disagree. Necron technology is millions of years ahead of the Eldar.

Necron technology is inferior to Ork technology. They don't even have as good shields or tractor beams as Orks do.

 Melissia wrote:
Necron technology is inferior to Ork technology. They don't even have as good shields or tractor beams as Orks do.

Who needs shields when your armor has adaptive capabilities and is all but impossible to target due to to its stealth capability? Heck, their teleport systems i.e. portals are superior to all others.

 Melissia wrote:
Necron technology is inferior to Ork technology. They don't even have as good shields or tractor beams as Orks do.

Well if we are talking tech, the orks really have none. The Orks have a psychic field which mimic's tech, but not tech itself. Orks are the other end of the spectrum as Eldar uses pysker powers in tech design orks however, uses psyker powers to mimic it.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Necron technology is inferior to Ork technology. They don't even have as good shields or tractor beams as Orks do.

Well if we are talking tech, the orks really have none. The Orks have a psychic field which mimic's tech, but not tech itself. Orks are the other end of the spectrum as Eldar uses pysker powers in tech design orks however, uses psyker powers to mimic it.

Your claim about Orks isn't true. Their guns are technological because they still work in the hands of non-Orks. See the Armageddon 3 rules for human Ork Hunters:

http://redelf.narod.ru/w40k/ig/w40k_ig_arm.html

They had as an option the ability to arm themselves with Shootas. These are clearly non-psychic ordinary human soldiers yet they are able to use Ork guns, meaning the Ork guns actually worked. Just because one lone Tech-Priest cannot figure out Ork guns and claims it must be all due to psychics doesn't mean that is the case. What a character in 40K believes can be wrong. Especially if this is from the same Adeptus Mechanicus that concluded in the old Necron Codex that Gauss weapons were impossible, despite the Necrons using them just fine.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 washout77 wrote:
The Eldar can be argued as THE most technologically advanced army in the game, runner up being the Orks

Fixed that for you.

Psychic technology is still technology after all.

I disagree. Necron technology is millions of years ahead of the Eldar.

This is no longer the case. According to the current Necron dex ( as far as i remember it at least ) it were the Eldar which drove the weakened Necrons into hiding, which implies that they had reached at least sufficient technological sophistication to fight interstellar wars. Of course, whatever ressources the Eldar might have once comanded, most of it is lost in the 40. millenium while the Necrons still seem to have most of their knowledge.

 KingDeath wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 washout77 wrote:
The Eldar can be argued as THE most technologically advanced army in the game, runner up being the Orks

Fixed that for you.

Psychic technology is still technology after all.

I disagree. Necron technology is millions of years ahead of the Eldar.

This is no longer the case. According to the current Necron dex ( as far as i remember it at least ) it were the Eldar which drove the weakened Necrons into hiding, which implies that they had reached at least sufficient technological sophistication to fight interstellar wars. Of course, whatever ressources the Eldar might have once comanded, most of it is lost in the 40. millenium while the Necrons still seem to have most of their knowledge.

This is not in line with the current codex. Under it the Necron where millions of years old and already fighting a war with the old ones before the C'tan. A war they never could win, not because of a lack of numbers or tech, but because of the webway. Also under the new Codex the Eldar did not drive the Necron off, the silent king chose to leave, put them to sleep and remove his shame as best as he could. They killed off the old ones and then the C'tan a feat the Eldar at that time could not do.


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Iracundus wrote:

Your claim about Orks isn't true. Their guns are technological because they still work in the hands of non-Orks. See the Armageddon 3 rules for human Ork Hunters:

http://redelf.narod.ru/w40k/ig/w40k_ig_arm.html

That is odd, every other thing I have ever seen about ork tech makes it clear it does not ork in non ork hands. Eh another contradiction. what does the ork codex say?

 KingDeath wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 washout77 wrote:
The Eldar can be argued as THE most technologically advanced army in the game, runner up being the Orks

Fixed that for you.

Psychic technology is still technology after all.

I disagree. Necron technology is millions of years ahead of the Eldar.

This is no longer the case. According to the current Necron dex ( as far as i remember it at least ) it were the Eldar which drove the weakened Necrons into hiding, which implies that they had reached at least sufficient technological sophistication to fight interstellar wars. Of course, whatever ressources the Eldar might have once comanded, most of it is lost in the 40. millenium while the Necrons still seem to have most of their knowledge.

This is incorrect. Its not that they couldn't win per se, rather the Silent King simply lacked the motivation to fight. My reasoning: if the Silent King believes a reunited Necron Empire can stop the Tyranids, then they could have defeated the ancient Eldar as well. I for one do not believe the might of the Tyranids as inferior compared that of the ancient Eldar.

It wasn't that the Eldar had better technology. The Necrons, after fighting the C'tan, had lost many numbers. The Eldar (IIRC) out-numbered the Necrons.

Wow my English is messed up today...