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2012/12/17 03:37:16
Subject: What Primarchs should have gone to Chaos but did not?
Everyone always talks about what Primarch almost stayed loyal and which one should have been treated better but no one seems talk about the Primarchs that logically would have fit in better in the Warmasters camp. My candidates are Corax, the Lion, and Sangiunus. Corax seems far to into the equality sorta stuff really fit in with the Imperium even before the Heresy let alone after, his suicide by Chaos seems pretty close to Konrad's suicide by assassin, my guess is he realized that he fought to defend a Empire that stood against everything he believed in and like Curze tired of the long war. Sanguinus should have sided with Horus, instead he sacrificed his life and the sanity of his legion who spent the next ten thousand years being treated like crap. As far as the Lion, he and his Legion are just too headstrong, they were before the heresy and they remained so after.
2012/12/17 03:41:59
Subject: What Primarchs should have gone to Chaos but did not?
Harriticus wrote: Horus always was surprised that Jaghatai didn't turn to Chaos. To a lesser extent I think the same holds true with The Lion.
IIRC the Lion would have sided with Chaos if Horus was winning at the time he got there, but somehow the Imperials needed help and the Lion help the loyalists.
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2012/12/17 04:26:59
Subject: What Primarchs should have gone to Chaos but did not?
I can't see the Khan turning. The Mongolian Empire and its conquests were built on unwavering loyalty from the Tumen commanders to the Great Khan. For Jaghatai to betray his sworn liege would not have been in keeping with either his back-story or the man (Genghis) he was channeling.
The Lion, according to our own BL fluff, would have, but he wanted to be needed and appreciated. Horus rebelling left him a real possibility of becoming the next Loyal Warmaster, which was a better option to him than continuing to serve Horus.
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2012/12/17 07:23:40
Subject: What Primarchs should have gone to Chaos but did not?
Can someone provide the sources for the Lion's temptations regarding chaos? Not that I don't believe, but I've heard people mention it a few times here lately, but have yet to see it mentioned or implied in any fluff.
2012/12/17 10:07:33
Subject: What Primarchs should have gone to Chaos but did not?
Yeah, the HH novels have actually shown Lion as completely resisting Chaos, despite being targeted by Chaos from the start (see Caliban's taint), IIRC.
"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of." - Roboute Guilliman
"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now." - Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
2012/12/17 14:14:47
Subject: What Primarchs should have gone to Chaos but did not?
Leman Russ. Seriously, he should have been more likely to fall than Magnus.
And Horus simply should not have fallen. I dare say he was among the few Primarchs who could truly be said to be the Emperor's sons, the others being Sanguinius, Dorn, Magnus, and Guilliman.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/17 14:15:12
"In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same"
2012/12/17 14:20:09
Subject: What Primarchs should have gone to Chaos but did not?
chaos girl wrote:I always thought the Lion was waiting to see who needed him more, then would choose that side.
In the HH series, he has flat-out stated - to a certain Daemon - his loyalty to The Emperor.
Admiral Valerian wrote:Leman Russ. Seriously, he should have been more likely to fall than Magnus.
And Horus simply should not have fallen. I dare say he was among the few Primarchs who could truly be said to be the Emperor's sons, the others being Sanguinius, Dorn, Magnus, and Guilliman.
Russ may appear to be one likely to fall to Chaos, but you could argue he's amongst the most loyal to The Emperor IMHO; unflinching and willing to do anything for him...
"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of." - Roboute Guilliman
"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now." - Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
2012/12/17 14:26:37
Subject: What Primarchs should have gone to Chaos but did not?
Admiral Valerian wrote: Leman Russ. Seriously, he should have been more likely to fall than Magnus.
And Horus simply should not have fallen. I dare say he was among the few Primarchs who could truly be said to be the Emperor's sons, the others being Sanguinius, Dorn, Magnus, and Guilliman.
^^ Well they do handle it rather badly in the novels. I.e. "Hmn, I'm not sure about this here Chaos thing" *Gets stabbed with dagger "Well I guess its time to burn down the Imperium and turn everyone into spawn then me lad'o"
The motives of the Primarches, other than Lorgar really, weren't to turn to Chaos, it was to uprout the Imperium. Chaos was just a way to achieve this, but it would have been entirely possible for them to go about it without having been tainted. But then again, the whole rebellion began with Erebus planting its idea in his brothers minds, so youknow, without Chaos there may not have been a civil war at all.
2012/12/17 14:28:21
Subject: What Primarchs should have gone to Chaos but did not?
Admiral Valerian wrote:Leman Russ. Seriously, he should have been more likely to fall than Magnus.
And Horus simply should not have fallen. I dare say he was among the few Primarchs who could truly be said to be the Emperor's sons, the others being Sanguinius, Dorn, Magnus, and Guilliman.
Russ may appear to be one likely to fall to Chaos, but you could argue he's amongst the most loyal to The Emperor IMHO; unflinching and willing to do anything for him...
Fair enough, I've noticed that tendency too...but I still don't understand why those two, Horus and Magnus would fall, when they were among the select few Primarchs who could actually be considered as more that mere 'gene-sons' (watered-down clones of the Emperor) and actually true heirs to the man's legacy.
"In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same"
2012/12/17 16:49:15
Subject: What Primarchs should have gone to Chaos but did not?
Magnus orchestrated his own downfall when he had a pack with a creature in the warp to save his sons from mutations, then damned himself when he broke open the warp gate in the Palace.
2012/12/17 19:03:38
Subject: What Primarchs should have gone to Chaos but did not?
I agree that Magnus was probably one of the most loyal of the Primarchs. I don't think he ever made a conscious decision to turn against the Emperor, he just made a series of mistakes/bad decisions until he found himself on his own demon planet being turned into a Prince of Chaos. To be honest,basically all of the Primarchs had some serious daddy issues.
I think the reason we talk about the traitorous Primarchs is because most of them have a ton of personality, while some of the loyalists are seriously one dimensional. Of the ones that are fully fleshed out, I think Corax is kind of like some of the more idealistic traitors and might easily have followed them under different circumstances. I also wonder about Ferrus Manus, I mean, Fulgrim was pretty convinced that he could convince him to turn...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/17 19:06:11
2012/12/17 19:14:49
Subject: What Primarchs should have gone to Chaos but did not?
Gul_Tekar wrote: I agree that Magnus was probably one of the most loyal of the Primarchs. I don't think he ever made a conscious decision to turn against the Emperor, he just made a series of mistakes/bad decisions until he found himself on his own demon planet being turned into a Prince of Chaos. To be honest,basically all of the Primarchs had some serious daddy issues.
I think the reason we talk about the traitorous Primarchs is because most of them have a ton of personality, while some of the loyalists are seriously one dimensional. Of the ones that are fully fleshed out, I think Corax is kind of like some of the more idealistic traitors and might easily have followed them under different circumstances. I also wonder about Ferrus Manus, I mean, Fulgrim was pretty convinced that he could convince him to turn...
Ferrus Manus was pretty steadfast in his loyalty to the Emperor, Fulgrim was convinced because he thought his best friend would choose him over loyalty, but Ferrus pretty much told him off from the get go.
2012/12/17 19:26:30
Subject: What Primarchs should have gone to Chaos but did not?
I think the primarchs fractured amongst more lines than simply pro imperium vs pro chaos.
Vulcan for one. The guy had his butt handed to him on isstvan and simply disappears. Seems to me that he had an epiphany about how the imperium might not be worth saving, by didn't want to actively work against it. Either that or he was simply a coward.
Ditto with alpha legion. They weren't on anyone's side. Ever.
The lion basically sat out the whole thing playing peekaboo with curze. He knew it wasnt helping the imperium, but he did it anyway.
The wolf should have known better than to prosecute a full war against Magnus. At the very least he should have confirmed those orders with the emperor. It should have been obvious that killing a legion was outside Horus' remit as warmaster. To continue without confirmation showed that he didn't really give a damn about the imperium anyway.
So it's probably better to look at it as those who were loyal, those that actively sided with Chaos and those who acted in their own self interest regardless of who it benefitted.
------------------
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2012/12/17 19:27:20
Subject: What Primarchs should have gone to Chaos but did not?
Actually as a White Scar fanboy i'm shocked Khan didn't turn to Chaos as well. Even more so since reading the new novella Brotherhood of the Storm.
It becomes quite apparent that the White Scars are the redheaded step children of the Crusade. They resist legion dogma, refuse to aid the Departmento Munitorium, and Khan even comes close several times to fighting Guillman.
White Scars just never fit in with the rest of the Crusade. Horus is the only one who could get Khan to stay to any type of plan. Horus even unleashes Khan, which Khan states is the reason he has unswerving loyalty to the Warmaster.
At the end of the book, Horus has Khan swear that he'll answer the call no matter what. There's a definite tension at the end of the novella to which way Khan will fall.
2012/12/17 19:31:10
Subject: Re:What Primarchs should have gone to Chaos but did not?
Just Dave wrote: Yeah, the HH novels have actually shown Lion as completely resisting Chaos, despite being targeted by Chaos from the start (see Caliban's taint), IIRC.
Correct. But you know, we never let evidence get in the way of opinions here in 40k Background.
For example:
Gul_Tekar wrote: I agree that Magnus was probably one of the most loyal of the Primarchs.
Except that he blatantly disobeyed the Emperor and continued to do whatever he wanted out of "good intentions." I'm sorry but Magnus is the most obvious traitor of them all. He should have known better but Tzeentch proved with Magnus that knowledge and ignorance can be the same thing in an arrogant mind.
I also can't see Sanguinius siding with Horus against the Emperor under any reasonable circumstances. What a weird notion.
Dorn was ripe for falling -- but really only after the Emperor was mortally wounded. If the Emperor had died mysteriously and the Heresy was Horus against Guilliman, then Dorn would almost certainly side with Horus.
OP has a good point about Corax. I'd just add that big-picture thinking was a particular challenge for Corax, although that might have been why he stayed loyal in contrast to Kurze turning traitor.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/12/17 19:32:51
Corrax would be a good choice. He ended up creating a bunch of abominations and chaos spawn trying to rebuilt his legion.
many of the traitors ended up doing similar acts in the heat of the moment, killing millions of innocents and later thinking they could not go back to the peaceful empire.
Had Corrax dones slightly worse he might have thought he would never be accepted back into the imperium and he might have turned.
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Manchu wrote: If the Emperor had died mysteriously and the Heresy was Horus against Guilliman, then Dorn would almost certainly side with Horus.
If the emperor had died somehow then Horus would have been the new emperor. He was second in command and with the emperor away/dead/missing his word would have been basically lay. That would have changed everything.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/17 20:03:22
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2012/12/17 20:40:19
Subject: What Primarchs should have gone to Chaos but did not?
Exergy wrote: Corrax would be a good choice. He ended up creating a bunch of abominations and chaos spawn trying to rebuilt his legion.
many of the traitors ended up doing similar acts in the heat of the moment, killing millions of innocents and later thinking they could not go back to the peaceful empire.
Had Corrax dones slightly worse he might have thought he would never be accepted back into the imperium and he might have turned.
Corax didn't really create the abominations. In Deliverance Lost, you see that
Spoiler:
It was a few Alpha Legionnaires disguised as Raven Guard who corrupt the new batch of marines.
Personally, I don't really see any of the primarchs who stayed loyal being more likely to turn traitor, except maybe Guilliman replacing Horus as leader of the rebels. I don't believe Guilliman would turn to chaos, but him leading a rebellion to stake out his own empire seems reasonable.
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2012/12/17 21:04:05
Subject: What Primarchs should have gone to Chaos but did not?
I guess that my point about Magnus was that everything he did was for the greater good of the imperium, unfortunately, it turned out that his bratty, teenager-like (assuming his dad knew nothing) arrogance made him actually do more damage than most of the other traitors could imagine.
Back on topic, I have trouble seeing Dorn betraying the imperium, even under Guilliman. Is there something about him that I don't know?
2012/12/17 21:31:43
Subject: What Primarchs should have gone to Chaos but did not?
Corax didn't really create the abominations. In Deliverance Lost, you see that
Spoiler:
It was a few Alpha Legionnaires disguised as Raven Guard who corrupt the new batch of marines.
Spoiler:
WTF? The Alpha Legion fluff is getting worse every year. Do they have to have a role in every event? These super epic ninja infiltrators of DOOOM with plans within plans and schemes that would confuse Tzeentch is getting out of hand. They were much cooler back when they just were a Legion that favored effective and unorthodox tactics. The next BL book is probably about Alpharius figuring out that Omegon isn't actually his twin, he's actually the Emperor of Mankind! They bro-fist and ride into the sunset.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/17 21:32:15
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2012/12/17 22:25:23
Subject: What Primarchs should have gone to Chaos but did not?
Gul_Tekar wrote: Back on topic, I have trouble seeing Dorn betraying the imperium, even under Guilliman. Is there something about him that I don't know?
Besides the fact that he very nearly did after the Heresy?
After the heresy when the High Lords were trying to pick which codex to use to model the Legions after there was almost a 2nd civil war between Guilliman and Dorn
2012/12/18 00:24:42
Subject: What Primarchs should have gone to Chaos but did not?
Yes, but I feel that the situation was entirely different. After the heresy, Dorn felt betrayed, he was angry that he wasn't trusted. Besides, he wasn't contemplating a rebellion against the authority of the imperium, just noncompliance with this particular order (which, according to Locke, is an entirely different matter). It might have then become another war, but its foundation was fundamentally different.
2012/12/18 00:26:51
Subject: What Primarchs should have gone to Chaos but did not?
CrashCanuck wrote: After the heresy when the High Lords were trying to pick which codex to use to model the Legions after there was almost a 2nd civil war between Guilliman and Dorn
There was only one codex, and that was the one written by Guilliman.
"In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same"
2012/12/18 00:44:21
Subject: Re:What Primarchs should have gone to Chaos but did not?
IMHO Alpharius should not have turned to Horus it just makes no clear sense to me.
I think it would have been cool to see Vulkan turn to Chaos and be all evil and shizzzz.
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2012/12/18 00:48:22
Subject: Re:What Primarchs should have gone to Chaos but did not?
Bloodfrenzy187 wrote: IMHO Alpharius should not have turned to Horus it just makes no clear sense to me.
I think it would have been cool to see Vulkan turn to Chaos and be all evil and shizzzz.
Of all people, Horus turning to Chaos DOES NOT make sense at all. Even if he had been stabbed by Erebus' 'magic dagger', someone as close to the Emperor as he was should have responded to the vision with "Hmmm...and? Is this it, void predators of the Warp? You expect me to believe my father would do this? You expect me to betray him with this...lie? Illusion? You apparently do not know me at all. Kill me if you wish, but Horus Lupercal has no interest in your threats or offers."
"In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same"
2012/12/18 00:51:43
Subject: What Primarchs should have gone to Chaos but did not?
Guilliman is a poor George Washington exspy, the real George Washington made sure the US was a great state before his demise, RG seems to just have suffered a heart-attack and then just got lost and throat-slashed by Fulgrim while leaving the IOM to rot. Then for reasons unknown comes along the defenders of him claiming him to be a better man than the ultimate man the Emperor, and everything gets mottled from there as everyone means everything.
Of course that's whats gonna happen without pragmatism taken into account.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/18 00:53:34
If you have nothing nice to say then say frakking nothing.
2012/12/18 00:55:42
Subject: What Primarchs should have gone to Chaos but did not?
Beaviz81 wrote: Guilliman is a poor George Washington exspy, the real George Washington made sure the US was a great state before his demise, RG seems to just have suffered a heart-attack and then just got lost and throat-slashed by Fulgrim while leaving the IOM to rot.
Too much opposition from Emo-pattern Dorn and the bureaucrats of the Imperial Administration probably delayed the implementation of Imperium Secundus.
"In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same"
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super epic ninja infiltrators of DOOOM with plans within plans and schemes that would confuse Tzeentch is getting out of hand. They were much cooler back when they just were a Legion that favored effective and unorthodox tactics. The next 
