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After suffering a major loss on saturday, I decided to brave the storm of Dakka to ask you guys: how can vanilla marines beat Nids?

I have never won against nids, and facing them just seems like a repeat whenever I encounter them. "These three monsterous creatures have Iron Arm, Doom of malan'tia is in a drop pod ect ect." I don't mean to sound like I'm whining, but I want to have a fighting chance.

the list i used:

HQ: IA10's Pellas Mir’san
Troop 1: Tactical marine squad (10, flamer, missile launcher)-170pts
Troop 2: Tactical marine squad (10, flamer, missile launcher)-170pts
Elite 1: Tactical Terminator squad (5 man, cyclone missile launcher)-230pts
Elite 2: Sternguard squad (9 marines, x2 heavy flamers)-250pts
H/S 1: Vindicator (extra storm bolter)-125pts
H/S 2: Vindicator (extra storm bolter)-125pts
H/S 3: Dakka pred-85pts
F/A 1: typhoon speeder-90pts
Fort: Aegis defense line (quad gun)-100pts
Total:1500pts


Castled up in a corner behind the aegis, Mir'san on the quadgun with terminators, Pred and typhoon sitting on the side. got one round of shooting in as the horde came forth, suffering from attrocious dice rolling (the dakka predator missed everything ) turn 2 came, and out of the sky came the Doom. he landed right in the middle of my parking lot, came out and blasted away most of my terminators with a str 4 AP2 pie plate. his pod got rear armor on a vindicator, destroying it with help of his hive guard. Assault phase came on and my Dice fed the Doom 2 Tactical squads and the rest of my terminators.

my turn 2 came, and I killed him with one missile. only problem is, his Swarm Lord charged up to my lines and ripped everything a new one

lost the game because of the attrousious dice rolling, but I need to ask: how do you defeat these buggers?

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
After suffering a major loss on saturday, I decided to brave the storm of Dakka to ask you guys: how can vanilla marines beat Nids?

I have never won against nids, and facing them just seems like a repeat whenever I encounter them. "These three monsterous creatures have Iron Arm, Doom of malan'tia is in a drop pod ect ect." I don't mean to sound like I'm whining, but I want to have a fighting chance.

the list i used:

HQ: IA10's Pellas Mir’san
Troop 1: Tactical marine squad (10, flamer, missile launcher)-170pts
Troop 2: Tactical marine squad (10, flamer, missile launcher)-170pts
Elite 1: Tactical Terminator squad (5 man, cyclone missile launcher)-230pts
Elite 2: Sternguard squad (9 marines, x2 heavy flamers)-250pts
H/S 1: Vindicator (extra storm bolter)-125pts
H/S 2: Vindicator (extra storm bolter)-125pts
H/S 3: Dakka pred-85pts
F/A 1: typhoon speeder-90pts
Fort: Aegis defense line (quad gun)-100pts
Total:1500pts


Castled up in a corner behind the aegis, Mir'san on the quadgun with terminators, Pred and typhoon sitting on the side. got one round of shooting in as the horde came forth, suffering from attrocious dice rolling (the dakka predator missed everything ) turn 2 came, and out of the sky came the Doom. he landed right in the middle of my parking lot, came out and blasted away most of my terminators with a str 4 AP2 pie plate. his pod got rear armor on a vindicator, destroying it with help of his hive guard. Assault phase came on and my Dice fed the Doom 2 Tactical squads and the rest of my terminators.

my turn 2 came, and I killed him with one missile. only problem is, his Swarm Lord charged up to my lines and ripped everything a new one

lost the game because of the attrousious dice rolling, but I need to ask: how do you defeat these buggers?

From what I can see, you do have lots of dakka, no question about it. Your dice rolls definitely killed you. Had you gotten your good rolls, this nids army would have ben reeling, from the Vindys, lots of flamers & ML, and A full Dakka Pred.

I would suggest maybe a flamer or two on the temie squad, maybe a TFC, or a Flamer/Dakka(crusader) LR.

First off, avoid the Swarmlord like the plague, he is a total beast but he's slow. Secondly, against the Doom you're either going to have to spread out or get inside Rhinos. Nids have crappy ranged firepower so your tanks should be fine for the first 2-3 turns (and with the Swarmlord's 2+ reserve rolls, you should expect the Doom to come in on Turn 2). If you can't mech up, then you're going to have to spread out and/or get inside area terrain (Spirit Leech grants cover saves).

As for the rest of his army, it actually looks quite suited for Nid killing. I do not recommend castling though, because the Doom can single-handedly annihilate a castled army. Make sure your units are spread out, and then when the Doom arrives, move out 6" from him and then blast him with all your S8+ weapons. As for the Swarmlord, you don't really have the weapons to deal with him. If you have to, delay him for a couple turns with a sacrificial unit (challenge the Swarmlord with your sergeant and/or HQ and then kill his guards with the rest of the squad; the challenger will be screwed, but he'll buy your other units time).

Oh, and I second the TFC comment, those things are nasty vs hordes.

I feel like two vindicators is total overkill at 1500 pts. Vindicators still give cover saves, and can only put a single wound on monstrous creatures.

That sternguard squad needs combi weapons. 9X combi melta = dead swarm lord. That problem is fixed.

Too many missile launchers. Missile launchers are okay, but not great. They are not great at cracking AV 13, 14 or 2+ saves, which are the kinds of things I *need* my heavy weapons to take out.

I don't know the rules for Doom off the top of my head, so I'm not sure what's best to take it on with. But if its got STR 4 AP2, sounds like some metal boxes are in order.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
I feel like two vindicators is total overkill at 1500 pts. Vindicators still give cover saves, and can only put a single wound on monstrous creatures.

That sternguard squad needs combi weapons. 9X combi melta = dead swarm lord. That problem is fixed.

Too many missile launchers. Missile launchers are okay, but not great. They are not great at cracking AV 13, 14 or 2+ saves, which are the kinds of things I *need* my heavy weapons to take out.

I don't know the rules for Doom off the top of my head, so I'm not sure what's best to take it on with. But if its got STR 4 AP2, sounds like some metal boxes are in order.

I just looked it up. The Doom is T4, so enough krak missiles or a power fist to the head should instagib it. Unless it rolls up iron arm. It also seems like a good candidate for being dakkaed to death, Sanguinor style. If you have a libby with null zone (which you should), its worth the risk of shadow of the warp to make this thing's day end very quickly . 3++ where you have to reroll is not very good.

I face Tyrranids a lot in my gaming group. It really depends on whether you are facing more of a swarm army or a nidzilla army. I like a good mix of flamers/heavy flamers and plasma guns or lascannons. Lascannons are great for grinding down their big monsters from range, but they are expensive.

My favorite tactic is to have a 5 member Sternguard squad in a razorback and drive them into rapid-fire range of a big bad monster, and unleash 10 combi-plasma shots. Usually takes down the beast in 1 round of shooting, if not, it probably only has 1 wound left.

I build my tactical squads with a Plasma gun and a combi-flamer. This gives me good options, I can rapid fire with 2 plasma shots, or take 1 shot at range to put the hurt on the monsters. I also have the option for a nice template shot into a swarm with a round of rapid fire backing it up. This works really well unless their swarm has FNP from a Tervigon, but even so, it can do some serious damage.

I also reallike TH/SS terminators, who can really get in the mix with everything but the Swarmlord. I always try to plasma the swarm lord to death.

Keep in mind that Iron arm can only be obtained by rolling randomly on the biomancy table. If your opponent is 'picking' this power, then you are being cheated.

As was mentioned before, mechanization is a really good counter to doom. S8 will also insta splat him.

Oh, yeah the TFC. I'm getting one for my allied vanilla force for my BA. They got so much better in 6th now that they take non-trivial firepower to take out. They actually kinda add to armor saturation like a wraithlord. TFC is good stuff vs nids; you can use the regular setting to instagib FNP termangants or the ignores cover saves setting for other stuff.

In general, I think MM attack bikes are better than pretty much any speeder. T 5 2 W 3+ with jink (and FNP for BA) is straight up harder to kill than AV 10 two hull points with jink.

This is even more true when we are talking about the typhoon. MM can frag a target you would spend the whole combat shooting krak missiles at. With the nids, you can take advantage of the 24" range killy death of the MM. The Swarmlord hates these things too. Basically, this recommendation falls under "2+ saves happen.... be prepared"

Remember that termigants aren't much of a threat if you have killed the Tervigons.

Mmm, I'm not sure doom was used correctly, did he suck up any wounds first? His str = how many wounds he has (and then afterwords he takes d3 wounds before getting the suck up of whatever he casued) and the str of that blast is equal to his str.

anyways, few things:

Yes to TFC
Yes to MM attack bikes (a squad of 3 is a good amount)

Though a dual HF speeder is 60 points and not bad for nids, but still get the bikes first.

Yep focus on tervigons, they're key force amplifiers. though obviously the swarmlord too should be focused on as well.

as mentioned castling vs doom is bad. Though, avoidable, just spread yourself out so that he cant sucessfully land. If you castle, you just gotta make sure your castle is FULL of stuff so no deep strikers can get in.

having stuff with interceptor always helps (since you are already FW: get a mortis contemptor and some hyperios, no more Doom then...)

Alright, sounds like some good ideas. but more than anything the dice screwed me over the table X-X

also, he was doing a nid zilla with so many other squads of gaunts, termivaunts and zoanthropes X-X

How can they pay for all this at 1500 pts?

I don't know... lets see if I can remember what he had.

Swarm lord
Doom of malan'tia in a drop pod
x2 tervivaunts
x2 hive guard
x2 zoan thropes
a big thing of gargoyles with the parasite
and many, many damn tervigaunts.

So basically, against this list, you have four targets that really have to go: Swarmlord, 2 Tervigons, and the Doom of Malan'tia. The list becomes very manageable if those four models are removed.

Your best units would be:

Sternguard
Lascannons
Sniper rifles
TFC's
TH/SS termies
Any HQ with eternal warrior
If there is a flying tyrant, bring 1-2 storm talons.

Your order of killy would be tervigons, unless they can't make anymore stuffs, then the doom (don't give him a good spot to land!) and finally just gun down the rest.

I regularly play against nid players, using all the tervigons, swarmlords and trygons money can buy. It's all about target priory.

If you are really hating on the enemy psy powers, take a farseer with runes of warding and a few eldar rangers. It makes nid players cry.

 juraigamer wrote:
If you are really hating on the enemy psy powers, take a farseer with runes of warding and a few eldar rangers. It makes nid players cry.

Not really. It just goes from almost guaranteed to a 50/50 chance. The 2 Eldrad's I've played against recently made me fail a total of 2 powers throughout the games and I perils-ed both times. Of course, all I was casting at that point was Endurance and Iron Arm so I did cut back... but it didn't change my strategy much.

Yes, what Juraigamer said. Except you don't know a priori whether to take anti flyer or not.

I've actually found that missile launchers do really well against nids.. str8 ap3 will instagib the multi-wound toughness 4 nids, pretty consistently put wounds on the big guys who mostly have a 3+ armor save. Firing them as templates should clear the likes of gaunts pretty quickly too

I would suggest missile launchers, but with 2+ save flyrants around lascannons are the way to go. You shouldn't need more horde killy power vs nids unless you never take any at all besides missile launchers, in which case SHAME ON YOU.

rigeld2 wrote:

Not really. It just goes from almost guaranteed to a 50/50 chance.

The average roll from 3d6 is 10.5. This means, on average, no powers happen and perils happen far more often. It's much easier to kill a MC that keeps losing wounds or doesn't use psy powers out of fear.

 juraigamer wrote:
I would suggest missile launchers, but with 2+ save flyrants around lascannons are the way to go. You shouldn't need more horde killy power vs nids unless you never take any at all besides missile launchers, in which case SHAME ON YOU.

2+ save Flyrants cannot happen - it's either wings or armored shell, not both.

rigeld2 wrote:

Not really. It just goes from almost guaranteed to a 50/50 chance.

The average roll from 3d6 is 10.5. This means, on average, no powers happen and perils happen far more often. It's much easier to kill a MC that keeps losing wounds or doesn't use psy powers out of fear.

Right - that's basically a 50/50 chance. And the benefits of getting Iron Arm or Endurance off far outweighs the risk of Perils.

Do not castle up, spread out.
Get Rhinos
Sternguard are your new best friends and the Swarmlord's worst nightmare

Missile launchers are good vs Nids, but not all armies you fight are tyranids.

Missile Launchers are the Anti-Nid.

Only 2-3 units in their codex have a 2+ save. Everything else gets blasted back to the stone age with Missile Launchers.

And, if you fight a Horde nid army, Missile Launchers blow the chaff away like nothing else.

I love Vindicators, so, I'd say keep them. They might not be the best against Tyranids, but they are great for punishing packed up nids. However, if all you are facing is nids, you might want to put TFCs in instead. The Techmarine bolsters ruins, the TFC blows up gribblies. Fire the S5/AP6 Ignores cover round, and watch those gribblies pop.

Also, he can't generate Warp Charge powers the turn he drops in, since Warp Charge are generated at the start of the turn, and if you aren't on the board at the start of the turn... (this is debatable, but if he pulls any TFG on you, return the favor)

Also, spread out from a Doom of Malan'tai.

I'd get more Typhoon Speeders, and I'd personally drop the Sternguard to do it. Or maybe the Tactical Terminators. 3 Typhoon Speeders is 6 Missiles and 9 Heavy Bolter shots. That's going to cause a lot of damage no matter who you shoot it into. And it's very mobile. Being able to move 12" and fire all of your weapons is great.

TH/SS terminators can bog down a Swarmlord for a decent amount of time. Challenge him with the Sergeant and beat down the rest of the squad.

He can't choose his powers from the BRB either. Make sure to watch him roll for his powers. #1 is Iron Arm, #5 is Warp Speed.

I'm also not a fan of Predators, due to how immobile they are. If you don't have a TFC, it'd almost be better to pay a bit more points and get more missile launchers.

 Robbietobbie wrote:
I've actually found that missile launchers do really well against nids.. str8 ap3 will instagib the multi-wound toughness 4 nids, pretty consistently put wounds on the big guys who mostly have a 3+ armor save. Firing them as templates should clear the likes of gaunts pretty quickly too

This. Cheap missile launchers have destroyed the once mighty Carnifex. Whoever it was who said that missile launchers are bad clearly doesn't run meltaguns on his units.

Crazyterran wrote:
Missile Launchers are the Anti-Nid.

Only 2-3 units in their codex have a 2+ save. Everything else gets blasted back to the stone age with Missile Launchers.

And, if you fight a Horde nid army, Missile Launchers blow the chaff away like nothing else.

I love Vindicators, so, I'd say keep them. They might not be the best against Tyranids, but they are great for punishing packed up nids. However, if all you are facing is nids, you might want to put TFCs in instead. The Techmarine bolsters ruins, the TFC blows up gribblies. Fire the S5/AP6 Ignores cover round, and watch those gribblies pop.

Also, he can't generate Warp Charge powers the turn he drops in, since Warp Charge are generated at the start of the turn, and if you aren't on the board at the start of the turn... (this is debatable, but if he pulls any TFG on you, return the favor)

Also, spread out from a Doom of Malan'tai.

I'd get more Typhoon Speeders, and I'd personally drop the Sternguard to do it. Or maybe the Tactical Terminators. 3 Typhoon Speeders is 6 Missiles and 9 Heavy Bolter shots. That's going to cause a lot of damage no matter who you shoot it into. And it's very mobile. Being able to move 12" and fire all of your weapons is great.

TH/SS terminators can bog down a Swarmlord for a decent amount of time. Challenge him with the Sergeant and beat down the rest of the squad.

He can't choose his powers from the BRB either. Make sure to watch him roll for his powers. #1 is Iron Arm, #5 is Warp Speed.

I'm also not a fan of Predators, due to how immobile they are. If you don't have a TFC, it'd almost be better to pay a bit more points and get more missile launchers.

Agree att this except dropping the sternguard. Their special ammo just too good. Hellfire probably the best answer in the dex to ironarm tyrant.

Biggest, issue besides bad dice rolling was giving the bugs a single juice target to converge on. Pretty much guarantee's safe charges to the biggies and cover saves from the leading edge of the horde. With most of your army being 24" guns you were giving him a turn 2 charge and the prefect landing spot for the doom.

Everyone here has good points (exept the guy who said missile launchers are bad). More high str weapons are what you need. Try dropping the extra storm bolters on the vindicators for some combi-weapons on the sternguard, either melta or plasma, or use the points to get plasma guns on your tac squads. Try to avoid letting the MCs get multi charges. Use your vindicators against the MC's to start before switching to hordes. Kill one MC before firing on another.

Okay since the thread is about a specific anti-Tyranid build, missile launchers are the go-to weapon. But against nearly every other list, this is not the case at all. In fact, I run exactly zero missile launchers in my all comers list. So my methods of dealing with the Nids with my all comers list would have to be very different. That's all I meant.

I run a BA list where every unit has access to melta, but there are many things in 40K I prefer not to get that close to. Meltaguns in practice I have found to be far less cool than meltaguns in theory. And I still don't use missile launchers.

How are missile launchers bad in an all comers list?
They can glance AV14. They blow up transports pretty reliably. They can frag against horde units. They're relatively cheap.

There's a reason Long Fang missile spam is still around and it's not because its bad.

 Thaylen wrote:
Keep in mind that Iron arm can only be obtained by rolling randomly on the biomancy table. If your opponent is 'picking' this power, then you are being cheated.

As was mentioned before, mechanization is a really good counter to doom. S8 will also insta splat him.

Redeemer flamers are S8 AP3, and can snap shot in overwatch (can't snap shot normally), as well as carry hammernators to smash the swarmlord.

Agreed with the previous posts, ML are good against nids, i would though prefer flamers in larger numbers since you can move, shoot, and assault in the same turn.

Martel732 wrote:
Okay since the thread is about a specific anti-Tyranid build, missile launchers are the go-to weapon. But against nearly every other list, this is not the case at all. In fact, I run exactly zero missile launchers in my all comers list. So my methods of dealing with the Nids with my all comers list would have to be very different. That's all I meant.

I run a BA list where every unit has access to melta, but there are many things in 40K I prefer not to get that close to. Meltaguns in practice I have found to be far less cool than meltaguns in theory. And I still don't use missile launchers.

They are the best all comers weapon. Krak rockets can dammage any armour, and while there not great at av14, they can take the last hull point off, and frag missiles are pretty good anti-hord. I two dev squads with four missile launchers each and have never been disappointed.

To each their own, I suppose, but against an unknown foe, I'll take the lascannon over krak rocket any day. Because most things that frags are good against, my marines can punch to death, or I shoot my whirlwind at.