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One in 12 times a melta-las punisher shoots at a vendetta, it blows up the vendetta. For comparison, the vendetta returns the favor about one in 8 times.

Certainly vendettas are good, but they're not phenominally better, which you would expect for something that much cheaper, and dedicated for few tasks other than blowing russes up.

Which is sort of the point of this entire thread. Punishers do the job worse, but still in the same league as vendettas, while also being able to target every other unit in the game. They're good here not because they're flyer killers extraordinaire, they're good because they can handle everything.

You know... versatility.

 Ailaros wrote:
One in 12 times a melta-las punisher shoots at a vendetta, it blows up the vendetta. For comparison, the vendetta returns the favor about one in 8 times.

Certainly vendettas are good, but they're not phenominally better, which you would expect for something that much cheaper, and dedicated for few tasks other than blowing russes up.

Which is sort of the point of this entire thread. Punishers do the job worse, but still in the same league as vendettas, while also being able to target every other unit in the game. They're good here not because they're flyer killers extraordinaire, they're good because they can handle everything.

You know... versatility.

This is making the assumption that the Russ can somehow out maneuver the Vendetta which is rediculous. Vendettas are MUCH better and almost 100 points less with a volume of other perks.

BUT I will agree that a Punisher load out is versatile among Russes which is the point of the thread I believe. The most versatile I am not so sure, a very fun tank with multi purpose.

Of course, the vendetta is 130 points, while the punisher you're quoting is 225. So when the vendetta blows up its competition 50% more often, one does wonder why you insist on using inferior units.

Edit: And of course, do note that while the Vendetta is "only" getting 50% more explode results on the Punisher, you're also chipping off 0.75 hull points per volley, where the Punisher is getting 0.28. So it's not just 50% better at exploding outright, it's 200% better at removing hull points.

Yeah, but is that one in 12 times worth it? I mean if the punisher has nothing else to shoot at maybe, but most of the time your punisher will have ground targets to focus on, at least in my experience. Adding the MM-las might give you that 1 in 12 chance to down a vendetta, but at the same time your diluting it's potential to wreck hordes even more without its 3 heavy bolters. I get this thread is about versatility, but concerning the punisher is it ultimately worth it? Especially if you have other means of taking out fliers. In your case, maybe not since you don't run the vendetta, but for those who do run vendettas why bother with the MM-las punisher? So you can take out other armor? Sure, but most would also have other units specifically dedicated for those targets. That and I've found MMs to be somewhat disappointing. It seems you need to be within that 12in for them to really work, and I sure as heck don't want my expensive tank within 12in of anything. 24in is bad enough.

And of course, all this completely neglects the issue of range. Multi-meltas are only 24", after all. Many of the targets you'd like to melt aren't going to be so kind as to walk into your line of fire.

Corollax wrote:
Of course, the vendetta is 130 points, while the punisher you're quoting is 225. So when the vendetta blows up its competition 50% more often, one does wonder why you insist on using inferior units.

This.

Just like in the Eradicator thread, Ailaros conveniently ignores the entire cost issue and pretends that there's "equivalence" between an expensive unit and a cheaper one that gets better results.


Besides that it's the wrong comparison to make. Who cares about whether the two potential units can kill each other, what matters is how good they are at killing the same target. In that case a Vendetta will kill outright (ignoring HP loss) another Vendetta about one in three times, while the "useful" LR Punisher can only manage it one in twelve. So the LR Punisher is four times worse than the Vendetta at killing Vendettas. And its seven times worse if you consider kills per point. That's so far from "close" that you'd have to be delusional to think that the Punisher can compete.

 Ailaros wrote:
One in 12 times a melta-las punisher shoots at a vendetta, it blows up the vendetta. For comparison, the vendetta returns the favor about one in 8 times.

Certainly vendettas are good, but they're not phenominally better, which you would expect for something that much cheaper, and dedicated for few tasks other than blowing russes up.

Which is sort of the point of this entire thread. Punishers do the job worse, but still in the same league as vendettas, while also being able to target every other unit in the game. They're good here not because they're flyer killers extraordinaire, they're good because they can handle everything.

You know... versatility.

Couldn't you just get the Exterminator which do the job better for less and would even have enough shots to challenge bigger mobs?

 Ailaros wrote:
One in 12 times a melta-las punisher shoots at a vendetta, it blows up the vendetta. For comparison, the vendetta returns the favor about one in 8 times.

Certainly vendettas are good, but they're not phenominally better, which you would expect for something that much cheaper, and dedicated for few tasks other than blowing russes up.

I'm a little confused. Wouldn't the cheaper unit generally not be expected to perform as well?

Which is sort of the point of this entire thread. Punishers do the job worse, but still in the same league as vendettas, while also being able to target every other unit in the game. They're good here not because they're flyer killers extraordinaire, they're good because they can handle everything.

You know... versatility.

Why would the vendetta only be used for killing russes? Why not instant death things with 2 lascannon hits a phase that can get through terminator armor? That seems versatile to me.

 Shadox wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
One in 12 times a melta-las punisher shoots at a vendetta, it blows up the vendetta. For comparison, the vendetta returns the favor about one in 8 times.

Certainly vendettas are good, but they're not phenominally better, which you would expect for something that much cheaper, and dedicated for few tasks other than blowing russes up.

Which is sort of the point of this entire thread. Punishers do the job worse, but still in the same league as vendettas, while also being able to target every other unit in the game. They're good here not because they're flyer killers extraordinaire, they're good because they can handle everything.

You know... versatility.

Couldn't you just get the Exterminator which do the job better for less and would even have enough shots to challenge bigger mobs?[/quote


Why would even get the Exterminator?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Vendettas are good at taking out other fliers and AV 10-13. And you can shoot down some MCs.

Corollax wrote:

The Leman Russ Punisher is bad. It's astoundingly bad. If you want S5 firepower, take an allied contingent of long fangs. They'll get the same number of shots on the target as your punisher turret, but they'll do so from 12" farther with the decency to be AP4 while doing so.

Nobody said good.

The argument is versatile.

My vote is Leman Russ Annihilator

Main gun-Flyers/Transports/TEQ/AV14

Hull flamer-entrenched GEQ

Plasmacannon sponsons-MEQ

The big issue when arguing versatility is flyers, and none of the blast ones can handle flyers. The LRA can handle just about everything moderately well kitted like this. Leman Russ Exterminator too, but it will have to choose between Plasmacannon sponsons to cover MEQ/TEQ, or Multimelta Sponsons to cover AV14.

LRA is the multitool of Leman Russes.

Too bad it sucks.

Punisher shoots 20 times, 10 hit (average) and 6 wound with saves.

 Evertras wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
One in 12 times a melta-las punisher shoots at a vendetta, it blows up the vendetta. For comparison, the vendetta returns the favor about one in 8 times.

Certainly vendettas are good, but they're not phenominally better, which you would expect for something that much cheaper, and dedicated for few tasks other than blowing russes up.

I'm a little confused. Wouldn't the cheaper unit generally not be expected to perform as well?

Which is sort of the point of this entire thread. Punishers do the job worse, but still in the same league as vendettas, while also being able to target every other unit in the game. They're good here not because they're flyer killers extraordinaire, they're good because they can handle everything.

You know... versatility.

Why would the vendetta only be used for killing russes? Why not instant death things with 2 lascannon hits a phase that can get through terminator armor? That seems versatile to me.

I kind of understand what Ailaros is saying - Punishers can threaten armour and infantry, whereas Vendettas are only good vs armour, but are much cheaper. Still, a Vendetta also does the anti-armour role FAR better than a Punisher, which suggests to me that you should then use your HS slot to take something that can do something the Vendetta doesn't do well.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 Evertras wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
One in 12 times a melta-las punisher shoots at a vendetta, it blows up the vendetta. For comparison, the vendetta returns the favor about one in 8 times.

Certainly vendettas are good, but they're not phenominally better, which you would expect for something that much cheaper, and dedicated for few tasks other than blowing russes up.

I'm a little confused. Wouldn't the cheaper unit generally not be expected to perform as well?

Which is sort of the point of this entire thread. Punishers do the job worse, but still in the same league as vendettas, while also being able to target every other unit in the game. They're good here not because they're flyer killers extraordinaire, they're good because they can handle everything.

You know... versatility.

Why would the vendetta only be used for killing russes? Why not instant death things with 2 lascannon hits a phase that can get through terminator armor? That seems versatile to me.

I kind of understand what Ailaros is saying - Punishers can threaten armour and infantry, whereas Vendettas are only good vs armour, but are much cheaper. Still, a Vendetta also does the anti-armour role FAR better than a Punisher, which suggests to me that you should then use your HS slot to take something that can do something the Vendetta doesn't do well.

The vendetta is a transport as well.

Yeah, the question was versatility, not pints efficiency or even overall usefulness. So A vehicle that can put out alot of moderate strength shots, some meltas and and las shot is pretty versatile, just like a loadout with the battlecannon, las cannon and some HB sponsons is pretty versatile.

Of course, some load outs are versatile, but also utter garbage for the points. For example. any LRBT "designed" to kill fliers. That's what more specialized tools like the Vendetta are for. OTOH, Vendettas can't drop battlecannon shots or plasma blasts, which are superior against MEQs, and TEQs, respectively. So there is that.

 jmurph wrote:
Yeah, the question was versatility, not pints efficiency or even overall usefulness. So A vehicle that can put out alot of moderate strength shots, some meltas and and las shot is pretty versatile, just like a loadout with the battlecannon, las cannon and some HB sponsons is pretty versatile.

Of course, some load outs are versatile, but also utter garbage for the points. For example. any LRBT "designed" to kill fliers. That's what more specialized tools like the Vendetta are for. OTOH, Vendettas can't drop battlecannon shots or plasma blasts, which are superior against MEQs, and TEQs, respectively. So there is that.

The vendetta can transport a group of veterans who carries plasmas

 Peregrine wrote:
Just like in the Eradicator thread, Ailaros conveniently ignores the entire cost issue and pretends that there's "equivalence" between an expensive unit and a cheaper one that gets better results.


Besides that it's the wrong comparison to make. Who cares about whether the two potential units can kill each other, what matters is how good they are at killing the same target. In that case a Vendetta will kill outright (ignoring HP loss) another Vendetta about one in three times, while the "useful" LR Punisher can only manage it one in twelve. So the LR Punisher is four times worse than the Vendetta at killing Vendettas. And its seven times worse if you consider kills per point. That's so far from "close" that you'd have to be delusional to think that the Punisher can compete.

How right you are. Of course, this does neglect the issue of durability -- that is, how difficult is it for the enemy to kill our unit. The Leman Russ is an AV14 vehicle, and the Vendetta is a flier -- so naturally, the Vendetta wins that competition as well.

I want to try out a IG flier list

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 Evertras wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
One in 12 times a melta-las punisher shoots at a vendetta, it blows up the vendetta. For comparison, the vendetta returns the favor about one in 8 times.

Certainly vendettas are good, but they're not phenominally better, which you would expect for something that much cheaper, and dedicated for few tasks other than blowing russes up.

I'm a little confused. Wouldn't the cheaper unit generally not be expected to perform as well?

Which is sort of the point of this entire thread. Punishers do the job worse, but still in the same league as vendettas, while also being able to target every other unit in the game. They're good here not because they're flyer killers extraordinaire, they're good because they can handle everything.

You know... versatility.

Why would the vendetta only be used for killing russes? Why not instant death things with 2 lascannon hits a phase that can get through terminator armor? That seems versatile to me.

I kind of understand what Ailaros is saying - Punishers can threaten armour and infantry, whereas Vendettas are only good vs armour, but are much cheaper. Still, a Vendetta also does the anti-armour role FAR better than a Punisher, which suggests to me that you should then use your HS slot to take something that can do something the Vendetta doesn't do well.

I'd argue that by the numbers, a vendetta threatens heavy infantry in a similar way that the Punisher threatens light armor. It's no plasma blast, but 2 armor-ignoring probably-instant-deathing wounds average on pretty much anything that isn't in cover will start to catch up around 3+ armor saves (about one wound more for Punisher) and wins out against 2+ armor saves. This is ignoring cost, which makes the vendetta even more desirable, and anything with multple wounds is going to get roasted. Also the range is way higher on the lascannons than the 24" Punisher.

Punisher is way better against hordes, though, no question.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tomten wrote:
I want to try out a IG flier list

You need less caffeine.

I'm not an IG player, but when did they gimp lumbering behemoth?

In the 2nd FAQ wave after 6th edition.

It wouldve been awesome to have like 6 vendettas and one veteran squad in each one

Hmm.... wow. That kinda sucks for IG. Most versatile? Are we allowed to narrow this to anti-tank/anti-horde? Because I don't think any Leman Russ variant is in any way good at AA.

Yeah, the annihilator is reasonably versatile as well.

This debate isn't about vendettas, but I'll just note that fliers have movement restrictions, and that there are real events that happen in games. I've taken down fliers with regular meltaguns before. To say that you'll never get multimeltas in range is just crazy talk.

Corollax wrote:

How right you are. Of course, this does neglect the issue of durability -- that is, how difficult is it for the enemy to kill our unit. The Leman Russ is an AV14 vehicle, and the Vendetta is a flier -- so naturally, the Vendetta wins that competition as well.

Then both you, and the people you play, are doing something wrong.

An AV 12 Flier is still easier to kill than an AV 14 non-Flier.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Corollax wrote:

How right you are. Of course, this does neglect the issue of durability -- that is, how difficult is it for the enemy to kill our unit. The Leman Russ is an AV14 vehicle, and the Vendetta is a flier -- so naturally, the Vendetta wins that competition as well.

Then both you, and the people you play, are doing something wrong.

An AV 12 Flier is still easier to kill than an AV 14 non-Flier.

Hitting on 6's with an "always on" option to Jink? For Orks and their Lootas perhaps. Melta is super plentiful in many armies and most long range AT guns will have a better chance against the ground bound LR than the vendetta, especially higher BS armies, and when it comes to close combat LR tanks are hilariously easy to kill, a tac squad has an easier time killing a moving LRBT than it does killing 2 basic marines on a charge.

The big thing is that the flier is vulnerable to more types of weapons. That said, a BS4 lascannon has double the chance to one-shot an AV14 tank that it does to one-shot a Vendetta.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Corollax wrote:

How right you are. Of course, this does neglect the issue of durability -- that is, how difficult is it for the enemy to kill our unit. The Leman Russ is an AV14 vehicle, and the Vendetta is a flier -- so naturally, the Vendetta wins that competition as well.

Then both you, and the people you play, are doing something wrong.

An AV 12 Flier is still easier to kill than an AV 14 non-Flier.

The last sentence there was meant to be taken in jest. That said, I think you'll find more than a few people willing to argue that the Vendetta is more durable -- at least in the absence of Imperial Armour units. And do keep in mind that this is an AV12 flier that costs less than 60% what the Leman Russ does. A vendetta might be easier to kill, but I can put 70% more of them on the table for what I'd be paying for in a Russ platform. It's like they say -- quantity has a quality all its own.

 Ailaros wrote:
Yeah, the annihilator is reasonably versatile as well.

This debate isn't about vendettas, but I'll just note that fliers have movement restrictions, and that there are real events that happen in games. I've taken down fliers with regular meltaguns before. To say that you'll never get multimeltas in range is just crazy talk.

Good thing they can't switch to hover mode or leave the table at will.... Oh wait. Imperial fliers do not have movement restrictions.

If only my opponents would ever go into hover mode. I would LOVE to get some non-snap-shot lascannon hits on them.

Oh, wait...

If you want battle tanks to be efficiently versatile, your gonna have a bad time. They simply pay too many points for the durable av14 frame. That said, 4 twin linked s7 shots can damage anything in the game short of av14, and unlike the many blast turret options still gets to shoot flyers. If you add either a Las cannon or multimelta sponsons then you gain limited av14 abilities, but since you are spending a fair bit without increasing defense you dilute the value as a tank at that point.

I don't know if "efficiently versatile" is really a thing that 40k is big on.

It seems to me that the game is designed in such a way where you have "ineffectively versatile" things that are cheap (grenade launchers and autocannons spring to mind), or things that are "effectively versatile", that can handle multiple things well, but you have to pay through the nose for them (10x stormtrooper squads, and ensponsoned russes would be examples).

If something were both great against all targets, AND really cheap, well, we probably wouldn't see guard lists with anything BUT said unit.