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So correct me if I am wrong, but GK Deamon Hammers are force weapons.

Kharn's 'Blessing of the Blood God" special rules state that : "...if Kharn suffers an unsaved wound from a force weapon, that weapon cannot inflict ID on him."

So if Kharn gets hit with a Str8 Daemon Hammer, it cannot ID him because of blessing of the blood god, whether it activates or not, it is still a force weapon right.

Also consider rad grenades that lower enemy toughness. If he becomes T3 and then gets hit by a bunch of double hammerhand or hammerhand + might of the titan force weapons(nemisis halberds/swords/staves) they also cannot ID him.

The Daemon Hammer is not a Force weapon, it is a Nemesis Force Weapon.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The Daemon Hammer is not a Force weapon, it is a Nemesis Force Weapon.

which are force weapons with additional rules

you would still double toughness him, so unless you turned on the Force weapon it would stil cause instant death.

why cant he be ID? if hes T4 or T3 with rad grenades, and is hit by a Daemonhammer at str 8 or 10 with hammerhand, and he fails his inv, hes dead.

Hammerhand and might of titan aren't attacks against him, therefore he can't use deny the witch.

Treat nemesis daemonhammers as thunderhammers, but against psykers and daemons, they take additional tests etc

Scorpio has it correct, Kharn is immune to the ID effect of Force Weapons when activated, if the Daemon Hammer is not activated it is still causing ID because the wielder's strength is twice that of Kharn's toughness

 CrashCanuck wrote:
Scorpio has it correct, Kharn is immune to the ID effect of Force Weapons when activated, if the Daemon Hammer is not activated it is still causing ID because the wielder's strength is still twice that of Kharn's toughness

I dont see why whether it is activated or not matters. The special rule is that force weapons cannot ID him. It makes no mention of the method by which the force weapon inflicts ID, all are ignored.

Scorpiodragon wrote:
you would still double toughness him, so unless you turned on the Force weapon it would stil cause instant death.

I dunno... it is still a Force weapon.

The rule doesn't say an "activated" Force weapon. Just Force weapon.

I can see the argument in favor of Karn.

Just saying...

I'd be inclined just to accept it, having Khrones blessing shouldn't really matter so much after his head has been caved into his chest cavity.

 Exergy wrote:

 CrashCanuck wrote:
Scorpio has it correct, Kharn is immune to the ID effect of Force Weapons when activated, if the Daemon Hammer is not activated it is still causing ID because the wielder's strength is still twice that of Kharn's toughness

I dont see why whether it is activated or not matters. The special rule is that force weapons cannot ID him. It makes no mention of the method by which the force weapon inflicts ID, all are ignored.

Instant Death by double strength doesn't rely on the weapon, the rule says if a model suffers an unsaved wound from an attack that is double their toughness they suffer Instant Death.

 CrashCanuck wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 CrashCanuck wrote:
Scorpio has it correct, Kharn is immune to the ID effect of Force Weapons when activated, if the Daemon Hammer is not activated it is still causing ID because the wielder's strength is still twice that of Kharn's toughness

I dont see why whether it is activated or not matters. The special rule is that force weapons cannot ID him. It makes no mention of the method by which the force weapon inflicts ID, all are ignored.

Instant Death by double strength doesn't rely on the weapon, the rule says if a model suffers an unsaved wound from an attack that is double their toughness they suffer Instant Death.

but the weapon is being used to deliver the hit. If it wasn't Kharn would get an armor save.

Kharn cannot suffer instant death if he should take a wound from an activated force weapon but he will die outright to strength equal or greater than his toughness... This could be a daemon hammer or a Nemesis force weapon striking at S6 and he is at T3 due to rad grenades.

 Exergy wrote:

 CrashCanuck wrote:
Scorpio has it correct, Kharn is immune to the ID effect of Force Weapons when activated, if the Daemon Hammer is not activated it is still causing ID because the wielder's strength is still twice that of Kharn's toughness

I dont see why whether it is activated or not matters. The special rule is that force weapons cannot ID him. It makes no mention of the method by which the force weapon inflicts ID, all are ignored.

Force Weapons can not ID him.

The only way for a Force weapon to do that is to activate the force property of the weapon.

When the characters Strength is double the targets Toughness the Wounds cause ID, but that is not the Force weapon causeing ID, that is the wound by virtue of its Strength that is double the targets Toughness.

Raw he doesn't get die, rai he dies

Ub3rb3n wrote:
Raw he doesn't get die, rai he dies

Incorrect. RAW he dies to Str double tough as he did not "suffer an unsaved wound from a force weapon" the wound had nothing to do with the force weapon.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Ub3rb3n wrote:
Raw he doesn't get die, rai he dies

Incorrect. RAW he dies to Str double tough as he did not "suffer an unsaved wound from a force weapon" the wound had nothing to do with the force weapon.

Well he did suffer an unsaved wound from a force weapon. GW's terrible wording strikes again. It just happened to be an unactivated FW, double the models (T)

But the inactivated force weapon didn't cause the ID.
The strength of the attack did.

rigeld2 wrote:
But the inactivated force weapon didn't cause the ID.
The strength of the attack did.

100% this.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
But the inactivated force weapon didn't cause the ID.
The strength of the attack did.

100% this.

I'm teetering on this one RAW, however RAI I completely agree, as well as HIWPI. Just wanted to get that across.

the Str is double the models T, however it was from a wound inflicted by a Force Weapon.

rigeld2 wrote:
But the inactivated force weapon didn't cause the ID.
The strength of the attack did.

The attack (and the strength bonus it has) was from the weapon.

If Kharn gets wounded by a weapon with S8+, then that weapon has caused an instant death wound. Since it's also a force weapon (even if it is an unusual force weapon), then by RAW it triggers Kharn's rule.

RAW - Kharn is safe.

HIWPI (as a Khorne player) - Kharn is gibbed.

Except that it was not the force weapon that caused ID, it was the Str of the attack that causes ID, not the force weapon.

Look at the context of the rule: "...if Kharn suffers an unsaved wound from a force weapon, that weapon cannot inflict ID on him."

In context they are talking about an activated force weapon.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Except that it weas not the force weapon that caused ID, it was the Str of the attack that causes ID, not the force weapon.

Look at the context of the rule: "...if Kharn suffers an unsaved wound from a force weapon, that weapon cannot inflict ID on him."

In context they are talking about an activated force weapon.

That may very well be the intent, however RAW it is a Force Weapon that inflicted the damage. This would be negated by Kharn's special rule. I understand that it is not the ability of the FW that is trying to kill him, but the Strength of it. The simple fact that it is a FW (NFW at that).

Come to think of it this Codex was written after the GK one was, so the writers were well aware of the Holy Thunda Hammas of Death, and could have written it as such: "...if Kharn suffers an unsaved wound from a force weapon, that weapon may not be activated to ID him."

OIIIIIIO wrote:
That may very well be the intent, however RAW it is a Force Weapon that inflicted the damage.

Only if you ignore context is it RAW.

The rules are talking about a Force weapon inflicting ID. How does a force weapon do that?

By the psyker expending a warp charge point and rolling a psychic test for the force psychic power.

Str double tough is not how a force weapon inflicts ID.

 DeathReaper wrote:

OIIIIIIO wrote:
That may very well be the intent, however RAW it is a Force Weapon that inflicted the damage.

Only if you ignore context is it RAW.

The rules are talking about a Force weapon inflicting ID. How does a force weapon do that?

By the psyker expending a warp charge point and rolling a psychic test for the force psychic power.

Str double tough is not how a force weapon inflicts ID.

You are completey ignoring what type of weapon is doing the damage .... this is not how RAW works.

Question: Was the damage enough to ID Kharn ... YES
Question: Did the damage come from any sort of FW .... YES
Question: Can a FW of any sort be used to ID him ... NO

 DeathReaper wrote:

OIIIIIIO wrote:
That may very well be the intent, however RAW it is a Force Weapon that inflicted the damage.

Only if you ignore context is it RAW.

That's why it's called RAW. RAW is when you ignore context. RAI is when you factor in context.

The rule states that ID caused by force weapons don't kill Kharn. It doesn't say "ID caused by activated force weapons do not kill Kharn." All it says is "ID caused by Force Weapons do not kill Kharn." Thus, as it's written, If ID is caused by a force weapon, period, it does not kill Kharn.

Thinking about it logically, and using context, we can tell that what the author meant is that ID caused by activated force weapons do not kill Kharn, meaning that ID caused by good ol' S double the T will kill him. But that is not RAW, because it isn't written anywhere in the ruling that "activated" force weapons can not ID him. Thus, it's RAI.

You are completely ignoring the context of the rule.

The rules are talking about a Force weapon inflicting ID.

There is a defined process of how this happens described on P. 37

BlaxicanX wrote:
That's why it's called RAW. RAW is when you ignore context. RAI is when you factor in context.

You have that incorrect.

Without context we have nothing.

The Daemonhammer is a Force Weapon. If it IDs Khârn, be it by virtue of striking with S8 or higher or by using a Warp Charge to inflict ID, it violates Khârn's special rule.

Is anyone else bothered by GW's copy and paste job with a lot of the CSM rules? I mean they go ahead and update the part of the rule dealing with psychic powers into 6th edition terms but not the Force Weapon bit. It should say "weapon with the force special rule". I can see the arguments with the Manreaper or Black Staff of Ahriman now....

RAW Kharn would ignore the ID. Why? Because its ID from a Force Weapon. The rule doesn't specify whether or not its a activated Force Weapon. You can play it as he doesn't ignore it, however if someone plays it RAW, you can't stop them.

The Force Weapon is not what inflicts the wound. The daemon hammer doubles the wielders strength and can be used to inflict force weapon wounds. The str8 wound is therefore no force weapon wound. Thats how we play it anyway.