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 Dozer Blades wrote:
I agree with lungpickle - and I hope GW will address this. The good news is Kharn will never lose a challenge to a daemonhammer.

Lungpickle? That guy who was caught saying that force weapons aren't always Force weapons? The guy who hasn't come back to post again, because he probably read the actual rule, though "Holy Gak, his rule is a blanket rule and applies to any force weapon?"
I mean, at this point Dozer Blade, nothing YOU SAY can be trusted, as you have shown a general inability to read,quote, or comprehend even the most basic of 40k rules. I have to ask; do you even play the game?
I showed this thread to my girlfriend, who actually plays the game, then gave her a rulebook and asked her to find the answer (all without telling her i was on either side.) I then repeated this process with my local game store, several tournament players, a 15 year veteran, and a beginner. Would you like to know what they all said? A total pool of thirty people?
A unanimous vote "No, Kharn cannot be ID'd by any force weapon, RAW."
Now, this may not mean much to you, as you seem unable to comprehend things like rules, but 30 out of 30 people think you're wrong.
Would you say that they are all wrong? Would you discredit yourself further?

 juraigamer wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
On a related note. Adamantine mantle (C:BT) says that the model does not suffer ID from a weapon whose strength is at least 2x toughness. I'm assuming if hit with a Daemon Hammer, he'd be immune to ID from Force activation?

Well adamantine mantle simply states you are immune to instant death from str x2 toughness. While a daemon hammer couldn't kill you, the force activation could, since activating the force weapon makes the wounds instant death, not double toughness or what have you.

"[...]The character does not suffer Instant Death when wounded by a weapon whose Strength is at least twice the character's Toughness, taking instead a single wound." In other words, if the weapon's strength is equal to or greater than twice your toughness, you do not suffer Instant Death from wounds caused by it. Which would include Daemonhammers as long as they strike at twice your T.

RAW, kharn takes a single wound from any unsaved wound caused by a force weapon,

RAI, and HIWPI he gets his head caved in by the big hammer that just put his head where his chest should be

Madtankbloke, how would you play the rule from the fluff side of things? While I would not be surprised if gw intended kharn to be immune to the force power only, so many other rules are straight up antipsyker or apply to a wide selection of weapons like the plasma siphon.

DevianID wrote:
Madtankbloke, how would you play the rule from the fluff side of things? While I would not be surprised if gw intended kharn to be immune to the force power only, so many other rules are straight up antipsyker or apply to a wide selection of weapons like the plasma siphon.

Force weapons allow a psyker to channel his mentsl powers through his weapon, and turn 'whatever' into a mindless shell, Kharn is so single minded in his desire to kill things that even if you could reduce him to a mindless shell, it would probably just annoy him, he would STILL try to rip your head off. now, his immunity to that particular type of attack doesn't change the fact that you just smashed his head open with a massive hammer.

So, my take on it is, he is immune to the ID from the force aspect of the weapon, but not immune to the fact that you just pounded his head into paste with what is in effect, a thunder hammer. but since the rule is quite explicit in the fact that he is immune to ID caused by force weapons, and it doesn't differentiate 'how' that ID might occur, RAW he doesn't get clobbered by the 2x Toughness ID rule, because its a forceweapon inflicting the instant death. and in any case, his rule is very specific in the wording, it covers all ID wounds caused by force weapons, regardless of the actual cause.

Its also worth noting, that the force weapons listed in the BRB are sword, axe and stave, and none of them, unless the user casts iron arm or something, have the ability to ID kharn through Strength alone.

So again, RAW he would laugh at you
RAI and HIWPI, he gets to smile at you through his belly button because thats where you just put his head

I would also rule, because of RAI, that Kharn vs a Force Hammer would die only because of the Strength being twice his Toughness, not because of psychic injections of Force Weapons. However, he should be 200 points AND Eternal Warrior or something like Commissar Yarrick, where he stands back up with 1 wound on a 3 or 4+. His origin story says he came back from the dead dammit ! My Juggernaught Axe Lord for 10 points more than Kharn can kill him every time because of the number of attacks and Kharns feeble Aura of Dark Glory (as opposed to the sigil).

He only gets back up if a rhino drives over him.

madtankbloke wrote:

DevianID wrote:
Madtankbloke, how would you play the rule from the fluff side of things? While I would not be surprised if gw intended kharn to be immune to the force power only, so many other rules are straight up antipsyker or apply to a wide selection of weapons like the plasma siphon.

Force weapons allow a psyker to channel his mentsl powers through his weapon, and turn 'whatever' into a mindless shell, Kharn is so single minded in his desire to kill things that even if you could reduce him to a mindless shell, it would probably just annoy him, he would STILL try to rip your head off. now, his immunity to that particular type of attack doesn't change the fact that you just smashed his head open with a massive hammer.

So, my take on it is, he is immune to the ID from the force aspect of the weapon, but not immune to the fact that you just pounded his head into paste with what is in effect, a thunder hammer. but since the rule is quite explicit in the fact that he is immune to ID caused by force weapons, and it doesn't differentiate 'how' that ID might occur, RAW he doesn't get clobbered by the 2x Toughness ID rule, because its a forceweapon inflicting the instant death. and in any case, his rule is very specific in the wording, it covers all ID wounds caused by force weapons, regardless of the actual cause.

Its also worth noting, that the force weapons listed in the BRB are sword, axe and stave, and none of them, unless the user casts iron arm or something, have the ability to ID kharn through Strength alone.

So again, RAW he would laugh at you
RAI and HIWPI, he gets to smile at you through his belly button because thats where you just put his head

I disagree with your RAI interpretation on these grounds:

1) He is the champion of khorne & is blessed by khorne
2) Khorne is basically the god of combat and, consequently, abhors psychers (the pansies!)
3) Force weapons are psychic instruments wielded by psychers.

For Khorne to protect his follower from the psychers and their psychic instruments to the highest degree possible, so that he may mash face as a good champion of the blood god should, seems rather fitting

RAW he doesn't suffer instant death from force weapons.

RAI I'm not sure, I'm not matt ward.

They can FAQ it to only be "activated" force weapons to solve the issue, but until then, kharn lives if he takes a hit from a demon hammer.

Of course, I'm wondering how he made it through the halberds in the first place...

warpspider89 wrote:

madtankbloke wrote:

DevianID wrote:
Madtankbloke, how would you play the rule from the fluff side of things? While I would not be surprised if gw intended kharn to be immune to the force power only, so many other rules are straight up antipsyker or apply to a wide selection of weapons like the plasma siphon.

Force weapons allow a psyker to channel his mentsl powers through his weapon, and turn 'whatever' into a mindless shell, Kharn is so single minded in his desire to kill things that even if you could reduce him to a mindless shell, it would probably just annoy him, he would STILL try to rip your head off. now, his immunity to that particular type of attack doesn't change the fact that you just smashed his head open with a massive hammer.

So, my take on it is, he is immune to the ID from the force aspect of the weapon, but not immune to the fact that you just pounded his head into paste with what is in effect, a thunder hammer. but since the rule is quite explicit in the fact that he is immune to ID caused by force weapons, and it doesn't differentiate 'how' that ID might occur, RAW he doesn't get clobbered by the 2x Toughness ID rule, because its a forceweapon inflicting the instant death. and in any case, his rule is very specific in the wording, it covers all ID wounds caused by force weapons, regardless of the actual cause.

Its also worth noting, that the force weapons listed in the BRB are sword, axe and stave, and none of them, unless the user casts iron arm or something, have the ability to ID kharn through Strength alone.

So again, RAW he would laugh at you
RAI and HIWPI, he gets to smile at you through his belly button because thats where you just put his head

I disagree with your RAI interpretation on these grounds:

1) He is the champion of khorne & is blessed by khorne
2) Khorne is basically the god of combat and, consequently, abhors psychers (the pansies!)
3) Force weapons are psychic instruments wielded by psychers.

For Khorne to protect his follower from the psychers and their psychic instruments to the highest degree possible, so that he may mash face as a good champion of the blood god should, seems rather fitting

I disagree with you as any other S8+ wound would inflict instant death.

Your disagreement is strictly HIWPI and not actually based in any written rules

Please mark your posts as such, so we know when to actually debate them, as it is pointless debating a houserule

I myself asked numerous people last night.

RAW Kharn takes a single wound.

HIWPI is he would die outright.

When we go to a tournament we'll ask a TO on his opinion and play it that way.

The consensus was pretty clear.

the way I see it:

kharn get str8 wound, wich is double his T4 so he goes ID

the deamonhammerwielder won't even get the chance to turn his FW on, as kharn is dead already.

go step by step like me and you'll see that it is the str8 that kills him, wether there's a force switch or not on that weapon.

and if I get in discussion about a rule, I roll a die. on a 1/2/3 its my interpretation, on a 4+ his. simple.

Please read the preceding 8 pages and find out why you are wrong.

I will give you a hint .... 'activated' is not in Kharn's rule anywhere ... he is just immune to ID from FW in any way shape or form.

Humey - your take is a houserule, not based in actual rules. RAW he ignores ID from ANY FW, no matter how caused

His take is not a houserule, he is simply not ignoring the context of Kharn's rule.

 DeathReaper wrote:
His take is not a houserule, he is simply not ignoring the context of Kharn's rule.

There's no context that supports that. It's not a magic word - you need actual rules to support that. You haven't established that.

 DeathReaper wrote:
His take is not a houserule, he is simply not ignoring the context of Kharn's rule.

If by "not ignoring" you mean "pretending to know the author's intent and ignoring the written rule because of this" then ok.

I have established rules support.

Please do not ignore my rules support this time.

In context they are talking about an activated force weapon.

How do all force weapons inflict ID?

By the psyker expending a warp charge and casting the psychic power by passing a psychic test (37).

That is how all force weapons inflict ID.

So do not ignore the context of the rules and you will see that a force weapon inflicting ID has nothing to do with Str Vs. Tough

That is not "author's intent", that is RAW.

 DeathReaper wrote:
In context they are talking about an activated force weapon.

[citation needed]

 DeathReaper wrote:
I have established rules support.
Please do not ignore my rules support this time.

I haven't.

How do all force weapons inflict ID?

By the psyker expending a warp charge and casting the psychic power by passing a psychic test (37).

They all also have the potential to cause ID by doubling toughness. Just like they have the potential to ID based on the results is a psychic test.

That is how all force weapons inflict ID.

That is one way force weapons inflict ID. You're ignoring the other way.

potential means little, all force weapons cause ID by the rules on P. 37

Force weapons causing ID, in context, means they are following the rules on P.37.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
In context they are talking about an activated force weapon.

[citation needed]

Kharn's entry in the chaos codex.

 DeathReaper wrote:
potential means little, all force weapons cause ID by the rules on P. 37

Exactly as all Force weapons cause ID based on double toughness. There's no difference except the "activation" of the ID.
Your blind ignorance of that fact is why you're wrong on this count.

All force weapons are not Double toughness, so they all do not cause ID based on that.

Potentially they can, but not all force weapons cause ID that way.

so they can not be talking about str double tough, as some force weapons can never cause ID on double tough because no force weapon can ID a wraithlord unless it activates the force property.

 DeathReaper wrote:
All force weapons are not Double toughness, so they all do not cause ID based on that.

Potentially they can, but not all force weapons cause ID that way.

so they can not be talking about str double tough, as some force weapons can never cause ID on double tough because no force weapon can ID a wraithlord unless it activates the force property.

So all Force weapons always cause ID? Or is there some requirement to be met before they cause ID?

 DeathReaper wrote:
potential means little, all force weapons cause ID by the rules on P. 37

Force weapons causing ID, in context, means they are following the rules on P.37.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
In context they are talking about an activated force weapon.

[citation needed]

Kharn's entry in the chaos codex.

Force weapons also cause ID by the ID rule on page 16.

I see nowhere in Kharn's entry the term "Force special rule" or "activated" or "psychic test" or really anything that implies that the force weapon must be activated for Kharn to be immune to it.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
potential means little, all force weapons cause ID by the rules on P. 37

Force weapons causing ID, in context, means they are following the rules on P.37.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
In context they are talking about an activated force weapon.

[citation needed]

Kharn's entry in the chaos codex.

Force weapons also cause ID by the ID rule on page 16.

I see nowhere in Kharn's entry the term "Force special rule" or "activated" or "psychic test" or really anything that implies that the force weapon must be activated for Kharn to be immune to it.

I've read and reread the section. The only context I see is that any ID from a FW cannot kill Kharn. A Force weapon can ID in multiple ways. Nothing makes you activate the weapon, so a DH will already ID things of T4 or less.

 DeathReaper wrote:
All force weapons are not Double toughness, so they all do not cause ID based on that.

Potentially they can, but not all force weapons cause ID that way.

so they can not be talking about str double tough, as some force weapons can never cause ID on double tough because no force weapon can ID a wraithlord unless it activates the force property.

Oh, so authors dont write rules unless those rules are guaranteed to take place? Not only is this a ridiculous claim, it is horribly, horribly wrong.
Weapons always have the potential to inflict instant death through Strength doubling toughness. A las gun culd inflict instant death on a toughness 1 opponent.
Force weapons are weapons. Yes? So they always have the potential to cause instant death through strength doubling toughness.
They also have the potential to cause instant death through activating their "Force" special rule. But they do not always activate. Running out of force charges, and failing leadership tests are two examples.
So to say that the author is contextually excluding one of these possibilities is both ludicrous and blatant proof that you are just making gak up now.
Please address this deathreaper, for the above to be untrue is simply not possible.
And how can YOU know what the authors intended? Are you one of them? Even if you aren't, using the authors intent as a defense makes your argument stray over to RAI, not RAW.
Its one thing to defend your believe, but its another thing entirely to discredit yourself over something when you're clearly wrong.

I would note that the blessing of the blood god from the chaos daemons codex gives a 2++ inv save vs force weapons and clearly means non activated force weapons (since they can't be activated until after they cause an unsaved wound). Based on this precident with almost the same wording I would play it that he only takes the 1 wound.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
potential means little, all force weapons cause ID by the rules on P. 37

Force weapons causing ID, in context, means they are following the rules on P.37.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
In context they are talking about an activated force weapon.

[citation needed]

Kharn's entry in the chaos codex.

Force weapons also cause ID by the ID rule on page 16.

I see nowhere in Kharn's entry the term "Force special rule" or "activated" or "psychic test" or really anything that implies that the force weapon must be activated for Kharn to be immune to it.

I've read and reread the section. The only context I see is that any ID from a FW cannot kill Kharn. A Force weapon can ID in multiple ways. Nothing makes you activate the weapon, so a DH will already ID things of T4 or less.

I agree. I don't fault DeathReaper's logic, and if I was playing someone in a tourney and I had Kharn and they had Force Weapon Hammers (or vice versa, but I don't play GK) I'd be willing to go either way on this one. But strictly RAW, Kharn is broken but not bowed by the NFW DH.