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"...if Kharn suffers an unsaved wound from a force weapon, that weapon cannot inflict ID on him."
I do not see what the fuzz is about.

Step 1. Would the wound inflict Instant Death?
Yes: Go to step 2.
No: Go to step 4.

Step 2. Is the wound caused by a Force Weapon?
Yes: Go to step 3.
No: Kharn is removed.

Step 3. Kharn suffers one wound.

These three simple steps can and should be followed for any Force Weapons, axe, sword, lance, maul or hammer.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Why do people assume a codex written with full knowledge of the 6th edition rules, made AFTER S8+ FW were about, is not intended to do *exactly* what it says?

Currently RAW is totally unambiguous

Because it's still GW And even when WH is my favourite hobby, they aren't that great with the rules compared to my other hobby MtG.

 DeathReaper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Currently RAW is totally unambiguous

That is true, but do not ignore the context of Kharns rule.

Yes as a patron of korn he has a thing about all things psychic and as such Force weapons are much less effective against him.

 Tri wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Currently RAW is totally unambiguous

That is true, but do not ignore the context of Kharns rule.

Yes as a patron of korn he has a thing about all things psychic and as such Force weapons are much less effective against him.

Right, and remember that force weapons cause ID by using the rules on P.37

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Tri wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Currently RAW is totally unambiguous

That is true, but do not ignore the context of Kharns rule.

Yes as a patron of korn he has a thing about all things psychic and as such Force weapons are much less effective against him.

Right, and remember that force weapons cause ID by using the rules on P.37

They can also cause ID by the rules on page 16 due to the double Toughness rule.

This is Force Weapon, not the Force Special Rule, which changes the context entirely.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
They can also cause ID by the rules on page 16 due to the double Toughness rule.

This is Force Weapon, not the Force Special Rule, which changes the context entirely.

Every force weapon inflicts ID by the rules on P.37

The same is not true for Str double tough as there are T6+ models in existence.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
They can also cause ID by the rules on page 16 due to the double Toughness rule.

This is Force Weapon, not the Force Special Rule, which changes the context entirely.

Every force weapon inflicts ID by the rules on P.37

The same is not true for Str double tough as there are T6+ models in existence.

... rules states that force weapons cannot cause Instant death on Kharn. In 6th edition all most all wounds are from weapon, in this case the daemon hammer. Who cares how it causes ID (page 16 ID, 37 Force or38 ID) Kharn just shrugs it off.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
They can also cause ID by the rules on page 16 due to the double Toughness rule.

This is Force Weapon, not the Force Special Rule, which changes the context entirely.

Every force weapon inflicts ID by the rules on P.37

The same is not true for Str double tough as there are T6+ models in existence.

Except we are not talking about T6 models, we are talking about a T4 model vs either S8 Force Weapons, or T3 with S6 force weapons. Who specifically has a rule preventing unsaved wounds from a Force Weapon from causing instant death. It specifically points out "Weapon" not "Force Special Rule"

"That Weapon cannot inflict Instant Death on him"

By the context of Kharns rule they are talking about P.37, because P.37 is how "All" force weapons inflict ID.

We will have to wait for an FaQ, since this issue is not clear.

 DeathReaper wrote:
By the context of Kharns rule they are talking about P.37, because P.37 is how "All" force weapons inflict ID.

[Citation Needed]

 DeathReaper wrote:
We will have to wait for an FaQ, since this issue is not clear.

Seems quite clear to everyone else.

 DeathReaper wrote:
By the context of Kharns rule they are talking about P.37, because P.37 is how "All" force weapons inflict ID.

We will have to wait for an FaQ, since this issue is not clear.

You are the only one left man. ID is ID and Kharn is immune to ID from all Force type Weapons.

That is all. Now lets lock this discussion until something changes the rules so that there is actually something worth arguing about.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
By the context of Kharns rule they are talking about P.37, because P.37 is how "All" force weapons inflict ID.

[Citation Needed.

Read Kharns rule then read the rule of how all force weapons cause ID on P.37

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
They can also cause ID by the rules on page 16 due to the double Toughness rule.

Not if the Str is not double Tough then they do not.

However a force weapon using the rules on P.37 can ID anyone that they can wound.

Read Kharns rule then read the rule of how all force weapons cause ID on P.37

So..Force weapons cannot cause ID any other way now?

Bit much don't you think, since that means that Daemonhammers cannot benefit from double toughness wounding.

Interesting houserule though..Not one I'd ever allow, but still.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
By the context of Kharns rule they are talking about P.37, because P.37 is how "All" force weapons inflict ID.

[Citation Needed.

Read Kharns rule then read the rule of how all force weapons cause ID on P.37

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
They can also cause ID by the rules on page 16 due to the double Toughness rule.

Not if the Str is not double Tough then they do not.

However a force weapon using the rules on P.37 can ID anyone that they can wound.

Well not quite anyone.

If a FW is Str D you're saying it won't cause ID other than the "force" rule?

I'm just wondering whats going on i thought the rule was simple:

For example, Kharn takes a wound from a force weapon from Inquisitor Coteaz whom has a nemesis daemon hammer, Coteaz rolls to hit and wound, and would do so with ease, hitting on 4's and wounding on 2's. His strength is 3, but with my friend placing him in a squad of greyknights hammer hand gives him 4 strength, the thunder hammer doubles that to 8, not to mention its ap2. Indeed a formidable weapon. So Coteaz wounds Kharn with a strength 8 weapon, compared to my toughness of 4 its already instant death without the "Force" Coteaz doesn't have to activate the hammer by passing a psychic test which would inflict instant death to any other model. As a chaos player and one who has Kharn as a HQ this edition, if i failed my 5+ invulnerable save ( To save from the strength 8 killyness ) i would remove him from the board. At the end of the day i'm not going to be >> LAME << Its still a thunder hammer guys. And if you want to get technical in the fluff Kharn gets laid low by just about anything and everything, even tho hes bad ass, hes kind of a pushover, so when you play Kharn dont be lame. I also want to point out that Kharn cant suffer an 'unsaved wound' from a strength 8 weapon, that implies that he fails his 5+ invulnerable save, so by this logic Kharn is already dead from a strength 8 weapon regardless if its a force weapon. He wouldn't be able to claim ' Blessing of the blood god ' . Another point i want to mention is that if the psyker assaulting and hitting Kharn has no warp charges left then he cannot activate his weapon and apply instant death after the target suffers and unsaved wound as that psyker hasn't got the juice! Lucky for him his weapon was a thunder hammer anyways ! Thank you come again!

DeathReaper you are correct.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
However a force weapon using the rules on P.37 can ID anyone that they can wound.

Well not quite anyone.

Right, anyone without EW, I thought that was clear, but I guess I needed to explain it.

If a FW is Str D you're saying it won't cause ID other than the "force" rule?

I do not see any Str D in the BRB...

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Read Kharns rule then read the rule of how all force weapons cause ID on P.37

So..Force weapons cannot cause ID any other way now?

Sometimes, but that is not within the context of the rule. The rules tells us he can not be ID'd be force weapons. How do ALL force weapons cause ID? By the rules on P.37

Context matters, do not ignore it.

But this is just a rehash of a few pages ago, so it is probably best to wait for an FaQ.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Sometimes, but that is not within the context of the rule. The rules tells us he can not be ID'd be force weapons. How do ALL force weapons cause ID? By the rules on P.37

... all weapons cause ID by the rules on page 16 ... so unless force weapons don't they also cause ID this way ... which he blocks because he block all ID from Force Weapons not just from the Force rule.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
They can also cause ID by the rules on page 16 due to the double Toughness rule.

This is Force Weapon, not the Force Special Rule, which changes the context entirely.

Every force weapon inflicts ID by the rules on P.37

The same is not true for Str double tough as there are T6+ models in existence.

This is absolutely false. Every FW can cause a double toughness ID wound. The potential exists, exactly like the potential for Force to be activated.

 DeathReaper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Currently RAW is totally unambiguous

That is true, but do not ignore the context of Kharns rule.

There is no context other than that which is in the eye of the beholder.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
They can also cause ID by the rules on page 16 due to the double Toughness rule.

This is Force Weapon, not the Force Special Rule, which changes the context entirely.

Every force weapon inflicts ID by the rules on P.37

The same is not true for Str double tough as there are T6+ models in existence.

This is absolutely false. Every FW can cause a double toughness ID wound. The potential exists, exactly like the potential for Force to be activated.

No they cant, as there are T6+ creatures out there and Str max is 10.

Ignore the context if you wish.

But this is just a rehash of a few pages ago, so it is probably best to wait for an FaQ.

he only ignores instant death from the FORCE weapon rule, he doesnt ignore double str instant death....


seriously, stop being a cheese head you know that is not the rule, he gets wounded by a str 8 or 10 weapon, that happens to be force, he dies, end of story

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
They can also cause ID by the rules on page 16 due to the double Toughness rule.

This is Force Weapon, not the Force Special Rule, which changes the context entirely.

Every force weapon inflicts ID by the rules on P.37

The same is not true for Str double tough as there are T6+ models in existence.

This is absolutely false. Every FW can cause a double toughness ID wound. The potential exists, exactly like the potential for Force to be activated.

No they cant, as there are T6+ creatures out there and Str max is 10.

An irrelevant fact. Psykers fail to activate Force if they roll above a 10. The potential exists. I'm not ignoring context - you're inventing it.

Rad grenades drops a T6 model to T5 so a daemonhammer with the effect of Hammerhand can insta-gib it.

easysauce wrote:
he only ignores instant death from the FORCE weapon rule, he doesnt ignore double str instant death....


seriously, stop being a cheese head you know that is not the rule, he gets wounded by a str 8 or 10 weapon, that happens to be force, he dies, end of story

Yeah, stop being a "cheese head"!! Can't be IDed by Force weapons means he CAN be IDed if we say so over and over again and ignore the rules well enough.
We can't allow models to take more than one wound from a Grey Knight even if the rules are clear, it's not fair.

easysauce wrote:
he only ignores instant death from the FORCE weapon rule, he doesnt ignore double str instant death....


seriously, stop being a cheese head you know that is not the rule, he gets wounded by a str 8 or 10 weapon, that happens to be force, he dies, end of story

If it's a force weapon that's Str 8 he's immune to ID from it.

Read the rule again for more clarity.

Also please remember Tenet #1
1a. Don't say that someone is wrong, instead you explain why you think their opinion is wrong. Criticize the opinion, not the person.

was he, or was he not hit by an attack with a str double his toughness,

yes or no

if yes, he dies, if not, he does not

having the force special rule does not override the str value of an attack

its still a wound caused by something double his toughness,

pg 16 "a model suffers an unsaved wound from an attack that has a strength value of double its toughness value or greater" (not weapon, weapon type is therefor irrelevant for this particular form of ID)

so there are more then one form of ID, one for the force rule, and one for the 2x the str rule, the 2nd he is not immune to.

if he is killed by every other armies str 8 attacks, then he is killed by every armies str 8 attacks (he is immune to all force weapons as his rule states, not to 2x str attacks)

As a rule, if you are tempted to call someone a name in a discussion, that's a good sign that it's time to take a break from the discussion, have a refreshing beverage, and remember that this is a venue to have fun talking about toy soldiers.

Please keep it friendly, folks.

easysauce wrote:
was he, or was he not hit by an attack with a str double his toughness,

yes or no

if yes, he dies, if not, he does not

having the force special rule does not override the str value of an attack

its still a wound caused by something double his toughness,

pg 16 "a model suffers an unsaved wound from an attack that has a strength value of double its toughness value or greater" (not weapon, weapon type is therefor irrelevant for this particular form of ID)

so there are more then one form of ID, one for the force rule, and one for the 2x the str rule, the 2nd he is not immune to.

if he is killed by every other armies str 8 attacks, then he is killed by every armies str 8 attacks (he is immune to all force weapons as his rule states, not to 2x str attacks)

He does not have protection from Force Rule, he has protection from Force weapons. They have a specific section in the BGB. Can a Force weapon ID something by being double it's T? Yes it can.

I also apologize to any one who was offended by my cheese head remark... i think the way some people are looking at the rule is cheesy, not your heads,

side note, it would say "kharn is immune to ID caused by force weapons, and by attacks from grey knights at 2x his toughness value" if thats what it meant, a str 8 attack, regardless of what weapon caused it, does not cease to be a str 8 attack just because everyone's "favorite" special marines are the ones inflicitng it

I suggest people play more guard, like i do, so you get used to your army dieing in droves... it numbs the pain somewhat

also battle cannons taking out "special" marines is quite theraputic


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:


He does not have protection from Force Rule, he has protection from Force weapons. They have a specific section in the BGB. Can a Force weapon ID something by being double it's T? Yes it can.

so which is it, he is either immune to force weapons (ie their str value ID) or the force special rule... it doesnt say both

easysauce wrote:
o which is it, he is either immune to force weapons (ie their str value ID) or the force special rule... it doesnt say both

He's immune to ID from Force weapons (i.e. their strength value is twice his toughness) and to ID from force weapons (i.e. the Force special rule).

They're both ways that Force Weapons can ID a model, and Kharn is immune to both of them.

As above

DR, you kjeep saying to not ignore context, yet you are doing so yourself. The context of "Force Weapon" includes both the fact they have the Force Rule, and that they are weapons. There are 2 ways they can cause instant death to Kharne

The context is clear, you are just ignoring it and are restricting it with no actual rules basis for doing so.

He is immune to ID from Force Weapons, which must include Strength and Force, otherwise you are ignoring written rules