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DevianID wrote:The unit does not have a different mark of chaos than abbadon. The unit has the mark of Khorne. This is the same mark that abbadon has.

It's one of the marks that he has... but again, what allows you to ignore the others?

You're choosing to only compare the mark that is the same. Why is that more valid than comparing one of his other marks?

GoliothOnline wrote:Except it's not called the Mark of Khorne / Slanesh / Tzeentch Nurgle, it's called the Mark of the Chaos Ascendant...

He nowhere in his profile is stated to have each and all marks separately, but in something unique that is stated to grant the same effect...

Excellent. So Abbadon can join unmarked units, or units with the Mark of Chaos Ascendant.

Or is that not quite what you were going for...

Considering the effects and only the effects of each Mark are listed to be granted to Abaddon and not the actual title of each mark, I'm pretty sure that means he has no issue joining any group otherwise the Mark of Chaos Ascendant would be listing each mark individually




Automatically Appended Next Post:
And since the Mark of Chaos Ascendant doesn't specify that it itself conflicts with any of the actual marks, nor do the marks of chaos apply to the Mark of Chaos Ascendant disallowing this specific mark to be allowed to join any unit that has a mark itself, he is inherently fine to do and go as he pleases.

GoliothOnline wrote:
Considering the effects and only the effects of each Mark are listed to be granted to Abaddon and not the actual title of each mark, I'm pretty sure that means he has no issue joining any group otherwise the Mark of Chaos Ascendant would be listing each mark individually

A Marked IC can't join a unit with a different Mark... so if you're going to argue that his Mark is the Mark of Chaos Ascendant, how can he ever join any other Marked unit?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

GoliothOnline wrote:
And since the Mark of Chaos Ascendant doesn't specify that it itself conflicts with any of the actual marks, nor do the marks of chaos apply to the Mark of Chaos Ascendant disallowing this specific mark to be allowed to join any unit that has a mark itself, he is inherently fine to do and go as he pleases.

Sorry, but... what?

Lets put this into another consideration as to why he has only the effects of each mark and not individually each mark..

If Abaddon had the mark of Khorne, wouldnt he also have Rage and Counter attack?

GoliothOnline wrote:
Lets put this into another consideration as to why he has only the effects of each mark and not individually each mark..

If Abaddon had the mark of Khorne, wouldnt he also have Rage and Counter attack?

Even if that's the case, look at it this way... You still have a Mark of Chaos (on the unit) and a Mark of Chaos Ascendant on abby...

Last I checked, Mark of the Chaos Ascendant is not listed as a "mark of chaos" under the rules on page 30 and it itself is simply a special rule coincidentally using the word "Mark" within it's title.

Golloth is correct. The Mark of Chaos Ascendant rules state that "He also has all four Marks of Chaos." Which implies two things. One, the Mark of Chaos Ascendant is not a "Mark of Chaos". And two, he does actually have all four Marks.

GoliothOnline wrote:
Last I checked, Mark of the Chaos Ascendant is not listed as a "mark of chaos" under the rules on page 30 and it itself is simply a special rule coincidentally using the word "Mark" within it's title.

Page 57: "He also has all four Marks of Chaos. Note that, due to Mark of Tzeentch..."

That's the important part of his Mark of Chaos Ascendant. Abby has all four marks simultaneously. His Toughness, Initiative, and his save are all located in his profile. The Mark of Khorne doesn't do anything to his stats or saves, just grants him Universal Special Rules.

Edit: Ninja'd

In regards to MoK he has Rage and Counter Attack - I've asked that here before and didn't get any pushback.

Can't say he does, sorry.

His profile clearly states that he doesn't have Rage, nor Counter attack =/

Therefore, Abaddon is equip with Mark of the Chaos Ascendant which is a special rule stating he has all the marks of chaos without the actual title to having each mark of chaos within his profile, which also means he is free to join any squad with a singular mark of chaos since Mark of Chaos Ascendant itself, as stated within the chart on Pg.30 ISN'T a mark of chaos

GoliothOnline wrote:
Therefore, Abaddon is equip with Mark of the Chaos Ascendant which is a special rule stating he has all the marks of chaos without the actual title to having each mark of chaos within his profile, ...

If it says that he has all four marks, then he has all four marks. It doesn't matter whether all 4 are listed in his profile... that's covered by the Mark Ascendant.

You're trying to turn 'has all four marks' into 'gains the benefits of all four marks but doesn't actually have them...'

Abaddon has all four Marks of Chaos. There is no way around that. The question is, what does the restriction refer to, when it says "a Mark of Chaos"? Generally, this is understood to be one (may take "a" gift of mutation, "a" model may swap their weapon for X,Y,Z). However, the argument is that in this case, "a" extends to mean "one or more", while in the other cases, it means "one and only one".

Why this case is unique, I have yet to receive a proper answer for.

MoK doesn't buff the stat line like the other marks... You could try to make the same argument for Berserkers or Kharn. I think it's safe to say he counts as having each mark... He is T5 due to MoK, I6 due to MoS and 4++ due to MoT. To say he doesn't have Rage and Counter Attack makes his MoK superfluous. It is only spelled out explicitly how he is buffed by MoT but the other three are all in affect as well... If not he'd had the same stat line for the most part as a Chaos Lord besides WS7 and an additional wound.

kaisshau wrote:
Why this case is unique, I have yet to receive a proper answer for.

You've had an answer: You're trying to twist the language in directions it doesn't actually go.

The fact that 'a' is singular is completely irrrelevant to this particular situation. If a character has at least one mark, then that character has a mark.

 insaniak wrote:

GoliothOnline wrote:
Therefore, Abaddon is equip with Mark of the Chaos Ascendant which is a special rule stating he has all the marks of chaos without the actual title to having each mark of chaos within his profile, ...

If it says that he has all four marks, then he has all four marks. It doesn't matter whether all 4 are listed in his profile... that's covered by the Mark Ascendant.

You're trying to turn 'has all four marks' into 'gains the benefits of all four marks but doesn't actually have them...'

RAW he has Mark of Chaos Ascendant, which clearly states he has all the marks under its special rule, yet for some reason he himself doesn't gain the benefit from each mark..

So RAW, he has Mark of Chaos Ascendant and nothing more since it's a sub-sect to the rule stating he has the marks yet not the titles,

RAI simply don't matter anymore until it's FAQ'd since he doesn't have any of the 4 marks listed in his profile, nor benefiting from any of the marks individually as the special rule of Mark of Chaos Ascendant clearly states it itself is granting the benefit from the mark of Tzeentch to grand Abaddon +1 invuln save to his terminator armor, and nothing more.

 insaniak wrote:

kaisshau wrote:
Why this case is unique, I have yet to receive a proper answer for.

You've had an answer: You're trying to twist the language in directions it doesn't actually go.

The fact that 'a' is singular is completely irrrelevant to this particular situation. If a character has at least one mark, then that character has a mark.

So, what you're saying is that the rule on Pg. 30 should be read as "An Independent Character with one or more Mark(s) of Chaos may not join one or more unit(s) with one or more different Mark(s) of Chaos."

Is that about right?

kaisshau wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

kaisshau wrote:
Why this case is unique, I have yet to receive a proper answer for.

You've had an answer: You're trying to twist the language in directions it doesn't actually go.

The fact that 'a' is singular is completely irrrelevant to this particular situation. If a character has at least one mark, then that character has a mark.

So, what you're saying is that the rule on Pg. 30 should be read as "An Independent Character with one or more Mark(s) of Chaos may not join one or more unit(s) with one or more different Mark(s) of Chaos."

Is that about right?

Yes, basically. Because that's what 'a' means in this context. In fact, one of the definitions of the word 'a' is "any" so you could read it as "An independent character with any Mark of Chaos may not join any unit with any different Mark of Chaos."

kaisshau wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

kaisshau wrote:
Why this case is unique, I have yet to receive a proper answer for.

You've had an answer: You're trying to twist the language in directions it doesn't actually go.

The fact that 'a' is singular is completely irrrelevant to this particular situation. If a character has at least one mark, then that character has a mark.

So, what you're saying is that the rule on Pg. 30 should be read as "An Independent Character with one or more Mark(s) of Chaos may not join one or more unit(s) with one or more different Mark(s) of Chaos."

Is that about right?

Nope, the rules clearly state that no one is ever allowed to have more than 1 mark of chaos at any given time. The rules on page 30 are clear as rain.

The special rule under Abaddon's profile states he has Mark of Chaos Ascendant granting him all four marks, yet he technically doesn't have them as they are not within his special rules themselves and under a separate rule which it, itself, isn't a mark of chaos.

GoliothOnline wrote:

kaisshau wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

kaisshau wrote:
Why this case is unique, I have yet to receive a proper answer for.

You've had an answer: You're trying to twist the language in directions it doesn't actually go.

The fact that 'a' is singular is completely irrrelevant to this particular situation. If a character has at least one mark, then that character has a mark.

So, what you're saying is that the rule on Pg. 30 should be read as "An Independent Character with one or more Mark(s) of Chaos may not join one or more unit(s) with one or more different Mark(s) of Chaos."

Is that about right?

Nope, the rules clearly state that no one is ever allowed to have more than 1 mark of chaos at any given time. The rules on page 30 are clear as rain.

The special rule under Abaddon's profile states he has Mark of Chaos Ascendant granting him all four marks, yet he technically doesn't have them as they are not within his special rules themselves and under a separate rule which it, itself, isn't a mark of chaos.

But it, itself, does say he has all four Marks. Therefore, by denying that he has any Marks, then you are outright contradicting a written-in-ink rule

Well actually, im not denying he has the marks at all, im simply stating that he has the Mark of Chaos Ascendant granting him as a special rule of all four marks, yet not allowing for the marks to interject with one another as they are within the special rule OF Mark of Chaos Ascendant.

GoliothOnline wrote:

Nope, the rules clearly state that no one is ever allowed to have more than 1 mark of chaos at any given time. The rules on page 30 are clear as rain.

The special rule under Abaddon's profile states he has Mark of Chaos Ascendant granting him all four marks, yet he technically doesn't have them as they are not within his special rules themselves and under a separate rule which it, itself, isn't a mark of chaos.

The rule says no model may purchase more than one mark. Abaddon doesn't purchase them. He just has them.

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yes, basically. Because that's what 'a' means in this context. In fact, one of the definitions of the word 'a' is "any" so you could read it as "An independent character with any Mark of Chaos may not join any unit with any different Mark of Chaos."

So, why is the gift of mutation option not interpreted as "May purchase one or more gift of mutation(s)"? Same codex, same wording, different result?

kaisshau wrote:

GoliothOnline wrote:

Nope, the rules clearly state that no one is ever allowed to have more than 1 mark of chaos at any given time. The rules on page 30 are clear as rain.

The special rule under Abaddon's profile states he has Mark of Chaos Ascendant granting him all four marks, yet he technically doesn't have them as they are not within his special rules themselves and under a separate rule which it, itself, isn't a mark of chaos.

The rule says no model may purchase more than one mark. Abaddon doesn't purchase them. He just has them.

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yes, basically. Because that's what 'a' means in this context. In fact, one of the definitions of the word 'a' is "any" so you could read it as "An independent character with any Mark of Chaos may not join any unit with any different Mark of Chaos."

So, why is the gift of mutation option not interpreted as "May purchase one or more gift of mutation(s)"? Same codex, same wording, different result?

Well, "one-or-more" isn't in the definition of "a" but "any" is, hence my clarification of your statement.

In the case of "gift of mutation" you may purchase any gift of mutation. - which doesn't make sense. So clearly we use a different definition of "a".

GoliothOnline wrote:RAW he has Mark of Chaos Ascendant, which clearly states he has all the marks under its special rule, yet for some reason he himself doesn't gain the benefit from each mark..

So RAW, he has Mark of Chaos Ascendant and nothing more since it's a sub-sect to the rule stating he has the marks yet not the titles,

No, by RAW he has all four marks, because Chaos Ascendant says he does. Whether or not he gains the benefits of those marks is irrelevant... he still has them, because his rules say he does.

kaisshau wrote:So, what you're saying is that the rule on Pg. 30 should be read as "An Independent Character with one or more Mark(s) of Chaos may not join one or more unit(s) with one or more different Mark(s) of Chaos."

Is that about right?

No. What I'm saying is that the rule is asking if there is a mark present. The actual number of marks is irrelevant. If you can point to something that is a mark, then there is a mark there.

kaisshau wrote:So, why is the gift of mutation option not interpreted as "May purchase one or more gift of mutation(s)"? Same codex, same wording, different result?

Because you're not given permission to select more then one.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

kaisshau wrote:
So, why is the gift of mutation option not interpreted as "May purchase one or more gift of mutation(s)"? Same codex, same wording, different result?

Well, "one-or-more" isn't in the definition of "a" but "any" is, hence my clarification of your statement.

In the case of "gift of mutation" you may purchase any gift of mutation. - which doesn't make sense. So clearly we use a different definition of "a".

The definitions of "a" are:
1. not any particular or certain one of a class or group
2. a certain; a particular
3. another; one typically resembling

You want to use definition 1 when referring to Abaddon, and definition 2 when referring to gift of mutation. Definition 1 works with "a gift of mutation", and would allow the selection of multiples.

insaniak wrote:

kaisshau wrote:So, what you're saying is that the rule on Pg. 30 should be read as "An Independent Character with one or more Mark(s) of Chaos may not join one or more unit(s) with one or more different Mark(s) of Chaos."
Is that about right?

No. What I'm saying is that the rule is asking if there is a mark present. The actual number of marks is irrelevant. If you can point to something that is a mark, then there is a mark there.

So here, we define "a" to mean "one or more".

insaniak wrote:

kaisshau wrote:So, why is the gift of mutation option not interpreted as "May purchase one or more gift of mutation(s)"? Same codex, same wording, different result?

Because you're not given permission to select more then one.

We've previously defined "a" as meaning "one or more". Therefore, permission to select "a gift of mutation" would be permission to select "one or more" gift of mutation. Why does the meaning change here? Where in the RAW does it state that when referring to "a Mark of Chaos", it means "one or more", but when we have "a gift of mutation", it means "only one"?

"An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos."

Does Abbadon have a mark of Chaos? Yes he has all 4 of them.

Does the unit Abbadon is trying to join have a different Mark of Chaos?

If yes then he can not join, as Abbadon has 4 marks of chaos he will always have a different mark than any unit with any mark, unless they have all four marks of chaos.

If no, they do not have a mark, and he can join them.

 insaniak wrote:

DevianID wrote:
Think about other examples. You may not put a CD on a shelf with different styles. If a CD is both country and rock, it can go on a shelf of either country or rock, ....

Given your restriction, I would disagree. This has the same problem as Abaddon does. Yes, the CD is rock... but it's also Country, and so can not go on the Rock shelf.

Actually that CD goes on the Rockabilly shelf...

kaisshau wrote:
Why does the meaning change here?

Because words in the english language don't exist in a vaccuum. The meaning depends on the context.


'May select a gift' can only ever mean one.
'

Deathreaper, what mark do berserkers have that is different from Abbadon?

If we go to the analogy, if you have a shirt with red yellow blue and green, and can not join a crowd with a different color on their shirt, can you join someone with a green shirt? Yes, because their shirt its not a different color than yours. The opposite its not true, but the green shirt is not trying to join the multi shirt.

DevianID wrote:
Deathreaper, what mark do berserkers have that is different from Abbadon?

If we go to the analogy, if you have a shirt with red yellow blue and green, and can not join a crowd with a different color on their shirt, can you join someone with a green shirt? Yes, because their shirt its not a different color than yours. The opposite its not true, but the green shirt is not trying to join the multi shirt.

You can't because your shirt is blue. Yes, it's green as well, but why are you arbitrarily picking only one color to compare?

DevianID wrote:
Deathreaper, what mark do berserkers have that is different from Abbadon?

If we go to the analogy, if you have a shirt with red yellow blue and green, and can not join a crowd with a different color on their shirt, can you join someone with a green shirt? Yes, because their shirt its not a different color than yours. The opposite its not true, but the green shirt is not trying to join the multi shirt.

The Berzerkers have the mark of Khorne, which is different from Abbadons mark of nurgle, and Tzeench, and slaanesh. It is the same as his mark of Khorne, but the zerkers have a different mark than Abbadon, as has been proven.

Let's look at a hypothetical:

Abbadon wants to join a squad that also has all four marks. Can he do it?

I'm going to assume that everybody here would say "yes." After all, the squad doesn't have a mark that is different from Abbadon.

Of course, though, Abbadon shouldn't be able to join this squad using the logic most people are using on this thread.

But the rules are clear; the squad doesn't have a different mark. But isn't the squad's mark of Khorne different than Abbadon's mark of Nurgle, etc?

Ridiculous, no doubt. Comparing mark to mark gives an answer that goes against the rules. But then why do that when Abbadon is trying to join a regularly marked squad? The sets of marks are should what is compared.

If you answered 'yes' to the hypothetical, could you explain why the two situations are, and should, be treated differently?