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Schrodingers_Kitty wrote:
Comparing mark to mark gives an answer that goes against the rules.

How?

Because if the unit had 4 marks you would use the same logic to say that abbys mark of nurgle is different than the units mark of khorne, and his mark of khorne is different than their mark of nurgle.

Not in that case, because he wouldn't have any different Marks. They would all have the same mark.

I own a 2000 Ford F-150 and a 2010 Prius.

You own a 2010 prius. You do not have a different car then I do. But I do have a different car then you do. I also have the same car as you do, but that doesn't matter.

DevianID wrote:
Because if the unit had 4 marks you would use the same logic to say that abbys mark of nurgle is different than the units mark of khorne, and his mark of khorne is different than their mark of nurgle.

No, you wouldn't.

The point is to match up the marks. If the character and the unit each have a mark, those marks need to match. That's as complicated as it needs to get.



For what it's worth, I fully expect that if this makes it to the FAQ, they will rule that he can join whoever he wants, and that's probably how I would play it as well. It's just not the way I feel that the rules actually read.

Grey templar, your example makes my point. Abby has a f150 and a prius. Berserkers have a prius. Berserkers do not have a different car than Abby.

It's good to see people discussing how they would actually play it now. To me that's often just as important as RAW.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It's good to see people discussing how they would actually play it now. To me that's often just as important as RAW.

You're always welcome to discuss HYWPI in any thread. Just point that out in your post.

 insaniak wrote:

If the character and the unit each have a mark, those marks need to match. That's as complicated as it needs to get.

Reading the rules like that, I can see your confusion, but the marks do not have to be the same. It's that the unit's mark can't be different from the independent character's. On a previous thread, I made an argument from set theory. Allow me to paraphrase it here:

A set {X} is defined as {1,2,3} and a set {Y} as {2,3}. A set difference, {A} \ {B}, would be the members of {A} that are not contained in {B}. So, {X} \ {Y} = {3} while {Y} \ {X} = {}. Meaning that there is a difference between {X} and {Y}, but there isn't a difference between {Y} and {X}.

Neronoxx wrote:
This has been argued a billion times and we don't need another thread about it.

Short story; you got two options
RAW he cannot join any marked squad as the rules for joining marked squads prevents him from doing this.
RAI he can join any squad because he has all four and is the warmaster.
That's it. No more discussion please. Its been argued over enough. Use the search button if you have more questions.

Please, just go by this.

DevianID wrote:
Grey templar, your example makes my point. Abby has a f150 and a prius. Berserkers have a prius. Berserkers do not have a different car than Abby.

However, thats not the rule.

the rule is that the IC can't join a unit if HE has a different mark. Abaddon has a different mark.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It's good to see people discussing how they would actually play it now. To me that's often just as important as RAW.

You're always welcome to discuss HYWPI in any thread. Just point that out in your post.

Thanks! : )

Grey templar, An ic can not join a unit with a different mark. The unit has to have the different mark.

Schrodingers_Kitty wrote:
Let's look at a hypothetical:

Abbadon wants to join a squad that also has all four marks. Can he do it?

I'm going to assume that everybody here would say "yes." After all, the squad doesn't have a mark that is different from Abbadon.

Of course, though, Abbadon shouldn't be able to join this squad using the logic most people are using on this thread.

But the rules are clear; the squad doesn't have a different mark. But isn't the squad's mark of Khorne different than Abbadon's mark of Nurgle, etc?

Ridiculous, no doubt. Comparing mark to mark gives an answer that goes against the rules. But then why do that when Abbadon is trying to join a regularly marked squad? The sets of marks are should what is compared.

If you answered 'yes' to the hypothetical, could you explain why the two situations are, and should, be treated differently?

Hypotheticals are cute, but don't really prove much....
What if Abbadon's rule worked and Gamesworkshop could write?
Obviously a bit or sarcasm, but my point stands.

Abbadon tries to join a squad of khorne termies.
Do both parties have a mark of Khorne? Yes
Do both parties have a mark of nurgle? No.
Do both parties have a mark of Tzeentch? No.
Do both parties have a mark of Slaanesh? No.

Does Abbadon and the Termies have different marks? Yes.
Do they share a mark? Yes.
Does the rule limiting the joining of IC's ask if they share a mark? No.
Does the rule limiting the joing of IC's ask if they have different marks? Yes.
Do they have different marks? Yes.


And to the whole "gift of mutation" debate.
We define "A" as "one or more." This solves the abbadon question.
But then you ask wait, shouldn't that allow me to purchase multiple gifts?
"....may purchase a gift of mutation for x points." This is how the entry reads, yes?
"....may purchase one or more gift of mutation for x points." This is how the updated entry would read.
This allows you to purchase a single mutation, it doesn't allow for the purchase of multiples.

It would need to be worded as follows to allow for multiple gifts...
"....may purchase one or more gifts of mutation for x points."

And it's that simple.....
Just my 2 cents.

Neronoxx wrote:


What if Abbadon's rule worked and Gamesworkshop could write?

Do what?

Neronoxx wrote:

Abbadon tries to join a squad of khorne termies.

Does Abbadon and the Termies have different marks? Yes.
Do they share a mark? Yes.
Does the rule limiting the joining of IC's ask if they share a mark? No.
Does the rule limiting the joing of IC's ask if they have different marks? Yes.
Do they have different marks? Yes.

"Does the rule limiting the joining of ICs ask if they have different marks" is misleading and poorly paraphrased. The limiting condition is the squad's mark being different.

Does the squad have a different mark from Abbadon? No.

Schrodingers_Kitty wrote:
Does the squad have a different mark from Abbadon? No.

So the squads Mark of Khorne is not different from Abbadon's Mark of Slannesh?

Rigeld, your statement is incorrect. Abbadon does not have the mark of slaneesh, he has the mark of slaneesh, tzeentch, nurgle and khorne. The unit does not have a different mark than that. You keep arguing abbadons mark is different. The rules don't care. Is the UNITS mark different. No it is not.

IMO it is.

The rules for marks forbid a squad from being joined by a character with a different mark. This is clearly intended to facilitate marked characters joining unmarked units, and unmarked characters joining any unit they want.

The issue is that Abaddon's rules clearly specify that he has all four marks of chaos. So when he goes to join a marked unit, he always has three different marks than the unit does.

Or, to go back to the beginning...

Neronoxx wrote:This has been argued a billion times and we don't need another thread about it.

Short story; you got two options
RAW he cannot join any marked squad as the rules for joining marked squads prevents him from doing this.
RAI he can join any squad because he has all four and is the warmaster.
That's it. .

Although personally I'm not 100% on RAI. He might not be meant to join marked units, to show that he's above them in not being dedicated to any one god.

He's my take on this.

Kharn want to join some bezerkers. They have a mark of Khorne. He has a mark of khorne. The unit has the same mark as him. He can join them.

Lucius wants to join some bezerkers. They have the mark of khorne. He has the mark of slaanesh. The unit has a different mark. He cannot join them.

Typhus wants to join some bezerkers. They have the mark of khorne. He has the mark of nurgle. The unit has a different mark. He cannot join them.

Ahriman wants to join some bezerkers. They have the mark of khorne. He has the mark of tzeentch. The unit has a different mark. He cannot join them.

Abaddon wants to join some bezerkers. They have the mark of khorne. He has the mark of khorne. He also has the mark of Slaanesh, Nurgle and Tzeentch. The unit has a different mark to Abaddon's mark of slaanesh, nurgle and tzeentch, but the same as his mark of khorne. 3/4 marks are different.. He cannot join them.

Neronoxx wrote:

And to the whole "gift of mutation" debate.
We define "A" as "one or more." This solves the abbadon question.
But then you ask wait, shouldn't that allow me to purchase multiple gifts?
"....may purchase a gift of mutation for x points." This is how the entry reads, yes?
"....may purchase one or more gift of mutation for x points." This is how the updated entry would read.
This allows you to purchase a single mutation, it doesn't allow for the purchase of multiples.

It would need to be worded as follows to allow for multiple gifts...
"....may purchase one or more gifts of mutation for x points."

And it's that simple.....
Just my 2 cents.

FYI, if that was what disallowed multiple gifts, then the Mark of Chaos rule would need to be worded as "One or more Marks of Chaos" and this interpretation would also be disallowed as the multiple gifts rule is, and would therefore only refer to characters with one Mark of Chaos.

I do believe Schrodingers_Kitty has succinctly answered the question, both with his hypothetical, and his symbolic logic. The question the rule is asking is "If the unit has a Mark, and the character has a Mark, does the unit have a Mark of Chaos that the Independent Character does not have?" In this case, and in the case of a unit with two, three, or four Marks, the answer is no, and Abaddon can join the squad.

IF the question is asking "Is there a difference between any Marks that the unit and the Independent Character have?" Then a unit with two or more Marks can never be joined by an Marked IC, as the IC's Mark(s) will always differ from at least one of the unit's Marks.

Mannahnin, you also make my point. You say abbadon has 3 different marks than berserkers. The rules don't care about that though. The berserkers have 0 different marks than abbadon. The rule cares about units with different marks, not characters.

The rules do not probit a squad from being joined by a character with a different mark, like you said in my post. You changed the wording when you said that, and got it backwards, hence your error. Do you see?

Mat, you also change the wording. Abbadon can not join a unit with a different mark. The berserkers do not have a different mark than abbadon. To have a different mark, they would need the mark of Malal.

if one person has an orange and a bananna, and wants a different fruit, can he get a fruit from someone with bananas? No, because bananas are not different fruits. Bananas are different from oranges, yes, but that is not what the rule is asking. You guys are committing missteps on logic.

Abbadon has bananas, oranges, apples and pears. He can not get different fruit from what he has. He can get fruit from someone with bananas as they are not different.

Um what? How did I change the wording?

DevianID wrote:
Mannahnin, you also make my point. You say abbadon has 3 different marks than berserkers. The rules don't care about that though. The berserkers have 0 different marks than abbadon. The rule cares about units with different marks, not characters.

The rules do not probit a squad from being joined by a character with a different mark, like you said in my post. You changed the wording when you said that, and got it backwards, hence your error. Do you see?

Mat, you also change the wording. Abbadon can not join a unit with a different mark. The berserkers do not have a different mark than abbadon. To have a different mark, they would need the mark of Malal.

if one person has an orange and a bananna, and wants a different fruit, can he get a fruit from someone with bananas? No, because bananas are not different fruits. Bananas are different from oranges, yes, but that is not what the rule is asking. You guys are committing missteps on logic.

Abbadon has bananas, oranges, apples and pears. He can not get different fruit from what he has. He can get fruit from someone with bananas as they are not different.

Well considering Abbadon has the mark of nurgle, and the unit has the mark of khorne, The berzerkers indeed have a different mark than Abbadon.

DevianID wrote:
Rigeld, your statement is incorrect. Abbadon does not have the mark of slaneesh, he has the mark of slaneesh, tzeentch, nurgle and khorne. The unit does not have a different mark than that. You keep arguing abbadons mark is different. The rules don't care. Is the UNITS mark different. No it is not.

So the unit's Mark of Khorne is not different from Abby's Mark of Nurgle?

Why are you arbitrarily only comparing a single Mark? How do you decide which to compare?

rigeld2, I would love to hear your take on my hypothetical.

Can Abbadon join a squad that also has all 4 marks?

Schrodingers_Kitty wrote:
rigeld2, I would love to hear your take on my hypothetical.

Can Abbadon join a squad that also has all 4 marks?

Yes. Perhaps you'll explain how that goes against the rules?

Wouldn't that squads mark of Khorne be different than Abbadon's mark of Nurgle?

But they have different marks.

I don't see RAI why GW would want to now change what Abbadon could previously do.

Schrodingers_Kitty wrote:
Wouldn't that squads mark of Khorne be different than Abbadon's mark of Nurgle?

Hmm you're right.
So he's limited to unmarked squads.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
But they have different marks.

I don't see RAI why GW would want to now change what Abbadon could previously do.

Because change happens.
I don't think there was any restriction on marked units in the old codex, so it's not just Abby, its all marked ICs that are limited where they weren't before.

Matt, one thing you changed is that you said kharn has the same mark as berserkers, thus he can join them. In reality, the berserkers do not have a different mark than kharn, so he is not prohibited from joining them. As an independent character he already has permission to join them, it is only a potential restriction that could prevent them from joining.

I blame myself and the nature of forum talks for failing to illustrate my point well. It is so much easier to talk about stuff in person.

Anyway, if you have milk, bread, eggs and cheese, and can not eat a different food, you can eat bread. Bread is not a different food.

This is the same thing as abbadon. He has 4 marks, and can not join a unit with a different mark. Replace marks with food, and join with eat.

Bad analogy.

Abbadon has 4 marks. Do the berzerkers have a different mark than Abbadon? Well yes, they have MoK and that is a different mark than Abbadons MoN, MoS, MoT.

Therefore the unit does have a different mark, as you can not just compare one mark, you have to take all of them into consideration because you are not told to ignore the others.