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 Lobukia wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The unit has MoK, as Abby has MoN Are those the same or are those different.

It is an easy question to answer.

This folks, can't joined marked squads, RAW. This is color-by-number rules. How are you messing this up?

It is being read wrong is how you are messing it up.

Abbadon has 4 things. Let's call them milk, bread, eggs, and cheese. He can not have something different. He can have milk, as milk is not different.

Milk is, however, different from Bread.

Why are you only considering the mark that is the same, and not the marks that are different?

You have avoided answering that quetion for 6 pages. Please answer it.

This is, indeed, painting by numbers rules - the rules state you cannot join if you have a mark (that is) different from the units mark. Abby has MoN. Is MoN the same as, or different from, MoK?

That is really your only argument but DevianID has successfully shown the inverse holds true... He has repeatedly demonstrated this for quite some time now.

The way you need to read the rule
"A unit with Mark of X cannot be joined by an IC with Mark of Y, Z, or W."

Unit A has Mark X. IC with Marks W, X, Y, and Z wants to join mentioned unit. He is prehibited from joining because he has Marks Y, Z, or W. It's not asking if he has the same mark as them. It's asking if he has the offending marks.

He has the blessings of all 4 gods, but that doesn't mean the unit is ok with a tainted leader.

Yet that is irrelevant, as this has been repeatedly shown to you and Devian for quite some time now

The rule only cares about the unit having a different mark from the IC. Does the unit have a different mark from the IC? Yes. Rule satisfied, the lord may not join

RAW this is utterly clear. RAI? Well you have decided it is "RAI" that they must be able to join, so presumably you are a member of the studio. No? Then your assertion is just that - an assertion. RAI can quite easily be that he cannot join, as he is above such petty "marking" to a single god. Boom, your "£RAI" "argument" is gone, again.

Like I said he has four marks not a mark. Phrases such as 'I have a blue cat... I have two blue cats' are superfluous.

Good grief, you read that was a grammatical error, yes? As in, your argument is based on a flawed understanding of grammar?

Yes, he has 4 marks. He has A mark as well

If you have 4 cars, do you have a car? Yes.


Please try again, but without repeating the same flawed disproven arguments again...

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Like I said he has four marks not a mark.

And yet you still haven't answered my question about the Waaagh Banner...

Does an ork IC have to have the WB to join any unit of orks? I fail to see the connection.


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nosferatu1001 wrote:
Good grief, you read that was a grammatical error, yes? As in, your argument is based on a flawed understanding of grammar?

Yes, he has 4 marks. He has A mark as well

If you have 4 cars, do you have a car? Yes.


Please try again, but without repeating the same flawed disproven arguments again...

It has been disproven - your attempt at semantics is flawed.

"A unit with A Waaagh Banner"

The connection is fairly obvious, usage of "A" to mean "one or more", same as in the Chaos rule on lords joining

A mark is satisfied by having One or More marks. A car is satisfied if you have 1 or more cars.



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 Dozer Blades wrote:
Does an ork IC have to have the WB to join any unit of orks? I fail to see the connection.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Good grief, you read that was a grammatical error, yes? As in, your argument is based on a flawed understanding of grammar?

Yes, he has 4 marks. He has A mark as well

If you have 4 cars, do you have a car? Yes.


Please try again, but without repeating the same flawed disproven arguments again...

It has been disproven - your attempt at semantics is flawed.

Sigh. It hasnt, as it isnt "semantics" but "basic English" that you are failing to comprehend

If it has been disproven, please actually do so - hint , it hasnt. Try thouigh, it gets funny.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Does an ork IC have to have the WB to join any unit of orks? I fail to see the connection.

You have claimed that the rule in question doesn't apply to Abbadon, since he has 4 marks and not 'a' mark.

A unit with 'a' Waaagh Banner gains +1 WS. So what happens if the unit has 4 Waaagh Banners?

By your reasoning, one Waaagh Banner gives them +1 WS... but having more than one means that they get no benefit whatsoever from any of them, since the rule would not apply.

I shouldn't need to point out that this is not the generally held view on how Waaagh Banners work...

@ insaniak

I'm sorry but I don't buy that as a counter argument... The multiple Waaagh Banner is a question of do they stack not can an IC join a unit.

@ nos

Why is your stance right and mine wrong? I'd love to see what an English professor would have to say.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

the rules state you cannot join if you have a mark (that is) different from the units mark.

First nos, that is not the rule. "an ic with a mark of chaos can not join a unit with a different mark of chaos."

Abbadon is a character with a mark of chaos. A mark of chaos is obviously the generic term for marks, as the mark of khorne is a mark of chaos, but not all marks of chaos are marks of khorne. Thus to qualify for this restriction an ic needs to only be marked. It doesn't matter what mark. Hence why unmarked characters can join any unit is not because they do not have a different mark, it is because the restriction only applies to models with a mark.

For abbadon to be denied the ability to join a unit, the unit must have a different mark of chaos. Again marks are used generically here.

You guys are reading it as "an independent character with the mark of nurgle may not join a unit with the mark of khorne." If this were the rule then you would be right. Nos, you asked why I never addressed this, I have been when I said you have been changing the wording. You changed the general term "mark of chaos" to a specific mark, and applied the incorrect logic so that you read the rule incorrectly as:
"Abbadon has the mark of nurgle. The rule says a model with the mark of nurgle may not join a unit with a different mark. Berserkers have a mark that is different from nurgle so he can't join them."

Do you see how you changed the generic "ic with a mark of chaos" to the specific "ic with the mark of nurgle" and how that change to the rules colored your perception?

To reiterate, the mark of nurgle is a mark of chaos, but not all marks of chaos are marks of nurgle. MoC != MoN.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
@ insaniak

I'm sorry but I don't buy that as a counter argument... The multiple Waaagh Banner is a question of do they stack not can an IC join a unit.

So? It's the same issue.

You claim that a character with multiple marks ignores a rule that refers to characters with 'a' mark.
So in the same way, a unit with multiple Waaagh Banners would ignore a rule that refers to units with 'a' banner.

Can you take multiple Waaagh banners? Sorry but I don't play Orks.

If you couldn't, I wouldn't have mentioned it as a potential issue...

Devian - so, again, why are you only looking t the MoC that is identical? Why, when the rule asks if they have a different mark, are you only considering the mark that is the same?

The rule is concerned with whether the unit has a different mark to the lord. The unit does, indeed, have a different mark - the lord has 3 different marks to the unit. The lord cannot join

Dozer - because, quite simply, you are wrong. You dont seem to comprehend a basic bit of English language construction. "A mark" is satisfied whether you have 1 or 100 marks. There is almost no way to explain this any clearer

The unit does, indeed, have a different mark - the lord has 3 different marks to the unit.

You reversed it right there again. You said the lord has 3 different marks to the unit.

Now how many marks does the UNIT have that are different from the lord? This is my important point.

 Lobukia wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The unit has MoK, as Abby has MoN Are those the same or are those different.

It is an easy question to answer.

This folks, can't joined marked squads, RAW. This is color-by-number rules. How are you messing this up?

They're messing it up because it is absolutely slowed that Abaddon, the warmaster with the so-called "Mark of Chaos Ascendant" can't join anything with a Mark. RAW, I suppose he can't join a marked unit, but you have to agree, it's stupid as hell.

Mcninja, RAW is that abbadon can join anyone.

If you have Abbadon and Berserkers, how many marks do the berserkers have that are different from abbadon?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Devian - so, again, why are you only looking t the MoC that is identical? Why, when the rule asks if they have a different mark, are you only considering the mark that is the same?

The rule is concerned with whether the unit has a different mark to the lord. The unit does, indeed, have a different mark - the lord has 3 different marks to the unit. The lord cannot join

Dozer - because, quite simply, you are wrong. You dont seem to comprehend a basic bit of English language construction. "A mark" is satisfied whether you have 1 or 100 marks. There is almost no way to explain this any clearer

Oh boy this thread again.

Because the rule doesn't care about what marks the character has. It only cares that he has the same mark as the unit he is joining. Read the rule, it is only concerned with the unit's mark of chaos. Any additional marks of chaos on the character are irrelevant. They are not what the rule is comparing.

Abaddon's mark of khorne is the same as a unit of berzerkers mark of khorne. That is the only thing the rule asks, and it is satisfied. Adding additional comparisons to the rule is out of scope of what the rule is asking.

DevianID wrote:
Mcninja, RAW is that abbadon can join anyone.

If you have Abbadon and Berserkers, how many marks do the berserkers have that are different from abbadon?

Again, their Mark of Khorne is different from his Mark of Nurgle, Tz, and Slann.

And intent could go either way. Either he's meant to join anyone because he's the warmaster, or he's meant to join unmarked only as he doesn't want to show favor.

rigeld2, you changed the question again.

How many marks do Berserkers have that are different from abbadon?

We already know that Khorne is different from corn, that is not what the rule is asking.

Kevlar wrote:
Abaddon's mark of khorne is the same as a unit of berzerkers mark of khorne. That is the only thing the rule asks, and it is satisfied. Adding additional comparisons to the rule is out of scope of what the rule is asking.

Why are you only comparing one Mark? How did you pick Abby's Mark of Khorne instead of his Mark of Nurgle?
Is Abby's Mark of Nurgle the same as the units Mark of Khorne?

rigeld2 wrote:

Kevlar wrote:
Abaddon's mark of khorne is the same as a unit of berzerkers mark of khorne. That is the only thing the rule asks, and it is satisfied. Adding additional comparisons to the rule is out of scope of what the rule is asking.

Why are you only comparing one Mark? How did you pick Abby's Mark of Khorne instead of his Mark of Nurgle?
Is Abby's Mark of Nurgle the same as the units Mark of Khorne?

Because the unit only has one mark, and that is the only one the rule is concerned with comparing.

Rigeld, I am not only comparing one mark. I also didnt pick anything. While Kevlar may have said something incorrect in a roundabout way, he still got it right. You are avoiding the main question presented.

How many marks do Berserkers have that are different from Abbadon?

 McNinja wrote:
TThey're messing it up because it is absolutely slowed that Abaddon, the warmaster with the so-called "Mark of Chaos Ascendant" can't join anything with a Mark. RAW, I suppose he can't join a marked unit, but you have to agree, it's stupid as hell.

You want stupid, try Captain Shrike having a rule conferring Infiltrate to a unit he joins... but being unable to join a unit at a time that would make that any use whatsoever.

Stupid things happen in GW's rules sometimes. Sometimes they wind up errata-d out... and sometimes they just get left that way. It's all part of the happy mystery that is GW games design.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
@ insaniak

I'm sorry but I don't buy that as a counter argument... The multiple Waaagh Banner is a question of do they stack not can an IC join a unit.

@ nos

Why is your stance right and mine wrong? I'd love to see what an English professor would have to say.

Why cares about grammar, we are Chaos Marines and above grammar.

The rule states that you cannot have a different mark, Abby does, rule applies. You don't need an English professor, you need to understand basic reading comprehension and its application to a permissive ruleset.


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BTW: HIWPI, he can join any unit, but its not RAW.

DevianID wrote:
rigeld2, you changed the question again.

How many marks do Berserkers have that are different from abbadon?

We already know that Khorne is different from corn, that is not what the rule is asking.

The units Mark of Khorne is different t from Abby's Mark of Nurgle.

DevianID wrote:
Mcninja, RAW is that abbadon can join anyone.

If you have Abbadon and Berserkers, how many marks do the berserkers have that are different from abbadon?

Huh. After re-reading the rule, I see what you mean.