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Devian - you *must* have picked one mark, as that is the only one you are comparing.

The bezerkers MoK is different to his MoN, MoS, MoT. The common is MoK. However the unit HAS a different Mark - the MoK - to his MoN, MoS, MoT, so cannot join

There - I have picked all 4, you have picked 1. You are just parsing the sentence in a way that is grammatically incorrect, which is why there wont be a middle ground until you undersstand that basic fact

Abbadon is offended that you are equating the Pantheon of Chaos to fruit. He joins 5 different squads with 4 different marks at the time. He then annihilates your planet and from there launches a Black Crusade.

In the following scene, people in an art class were told to make a picture using crayons. Since the school doesn't fund its art department that well, not everybody can have an identical set of crayons. Some get a starter pack while others get the deluxe set. The teacher said to just share the crayons so everybody can get done with his picture.

Schrodingers_Kitty: Hey, rigeld2, What crayon set did you get?
rigeld2: I got the 24 crayon pack.
SK: I only got the 8 crayon pack, and I need a different color to finish my picture. Could I borrow your midnight blue if you aren't going to use it?
r: Sure
SK: Thanks.
Upon Schrodingers_Kitty returning the borrowed crayon
SK: Thanks again for letting me use this crayon.
r: No problem, but now I see that I also need a different color to finish my picture. Could I borrow something from you?
SK: Well, like I said before, I only have the basic 8 crayon set while you have the 24 set. You already have all the colors that I do. I can't give you a different color. If you need a different color, I suggest finding somebody who has a 100 crayon set.
r: How about you just give me your blue?
SK: I could do that, but since you have blue, how would that help you finish your picture?
r: You see, your blue crayon is different from my green. Actually, your blue crayon is different from 23 of my crayons.
SK: Well, good luck with that, then.
Scene end.

Schrodingers_Kitty wrote:
In the following scene, people in an art class were told to make a picture using crayons. Since the school doesn't fund its art department that well, not everybody can have an identical set of crayons. Some get a starter pack while others get the deluxe set. The teacher said to just share the crayons so everybody can get done with his picture.

Schrodingers_Kitty: Hey, rigeld2, What crayon set did you get?
rigeld2: I got the 24 crayon pack.
SK: I only got the 8 crayon pack, and I need a different color to finish my picture. Could I borrow your midnight blue if you aren't going to use it?
r: Sure
SK: Thanks.
Upon Schrodingers_Kitty returning the borrowed crayon
SK: Thanks again for letting me use this crayon.
r: No problem, but now I see that I also need a different color to finish my picture. Could I borrow something from you?
SK: Well, like I said before, I only have the basic 8 crayon set while you have the 24 set. You already have all the colors that I do. I can't give you a different color. If you need a different color, I suggest finding somebody who has a 100 crayon set.
r: How about you just give me your blue?
SK: I could do that, but since you have blue, how would that help you finish your picture?
r: You see, your blue crayon is different from my green. Actually, your blue crayon is different from 23 of my crayons.
SK: Well, good luck with that, then.
Scene end.

True, and funny! That being said, after sitting last night with a few guys, and just reading the rules it is fairly clear he couldn't join anything with a mark to me.

Now again, that is not saying we're playing that way, we still let Abbadon almost cost me the tourney!

Applause

More applause!

Schrodingers_Kitty wrote:
In the following scene, people in an art class were told to make a picture using crayons. Since the school doesn't fund its art department that well, not everybody can have an identical set of crayons. Some get a starter pack while others get the deluxe set. The teacher said to just share the crayons so everybody can get done with his picture.

Schrodingers_Kitty: Hey, rigeld2, What crayon set did you get?
rigeld2: I got the 24 crayon pack.
SK: I only got the 8 crayon pack, and I need a different color to finish my picture. Could I borrow your midnight blue if you aren't going to use it?
r: Sure
SK: Thanks.
Upon Schrodingers_Kitty returning the borrowed crayon
SK: Thanks again for letting me use this crayon.
r: No problem, but now I see that I also need a different color to finish my picture. Could I borrow something from you?
SK: Well, like I said before, I only have the basic 8 crayon set while you have the 24 set. You already have all the colors that I do. I can't give you a different color. If you need a different color, I suggest finding somebody who has a 100 crayon set.
r: How about you just give me your blue?
SK: I could do that, but since you have blue, how would that help you finish your picture?
r: You see, your blue crayon is different from my green. Actually, your blue crayon is different from 23 of my crayons.
SK: Well, good luck with that, then.
Scene end.

This relies on the rule saying something that it doesn't. Not trying to be a jerk, but here is the quoted rule again:

"An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos."

It doesn't say "An Independent Character with any Mark of Chaos" or "An Independent Character with Marks of Chaos", which is what that story (and the opposing argument) relies upon.

The rule asks you this:

"An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos..."
Does the IC have a Mark of Chaos? Yes, the IC has a MoK.

At this point, the first conditional is completely satisfied and the 'then' clause must be immediately applied:

"...may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos."
Does the Unit have a 'different' Mark of Chaos? No, the Unit also has a MoK.

At this point, the second conditional has been satisfied and the conclusion is applied depending on the 'difference' of the Marks.

The Independent Character may join the unit.

The problem with Abaddon is that because the rule is very succinctly divided into a singular ("a Mark"), double-conditional, it cannot be applied en masse to all four marks at once. So we must apply the conditional statement individually, with respect to each of his Marks, in order.

Unfortunately, when we do this, we immediately find that as soon as we apply the rule to Abaddon's second Mark (assuming the Unit's Mark did not differ from Abaddon's first Mark we compared) we violate the second conditional —namely that the MoK (in the above example) differs from Abaddon's MoN (or MoT, or MoS, whichever we choose to compare next) and are forced to prevent him joining the Unit.

I personally believe the RAI is that he should be able to join. A quick (albeit somewhat clumsy) fix would be something like "If a Unit has a Mark of Chaos, an IC may not join that unit unless they also have that Mark of Chaos."

DoW

 DogOfWar wrote:
I personally believe the RAI is that he should be able to join. A quick (albeit somewhat clumsy) fix would be something like "If a Unit has a Mark of Chaos, an IC may not join that unit unless they also have that Mark of Chaos."

That would prevent unMarked ICs from joining Marked units.

DogofWar, you are reading 'an independant character with a mark of chaos' as if it is talking about a specifi mark there. Mark of chaos is just a generic term. If you have kharn with his mark of khorne, you dont read the rule as "An independant character with the mark of khorne," which is what you just said you do.

If you change a generic term for a specific one, you change the meaning completely. In the above example, by changing mark of chaos to mark of khorne, it only applies to one mark. We know the rule doesnt apply to a single mark, it applies to any mark.

The way you are incorrectly reading 'an independant character with a mark of chaos,' you have to apply the rule to abbadon 4 seperate times. That is insanity. The rule does not say apply it for each mark at all, nor do you ever apply 1 rule multiple times, nor do you replace key words in a rule for a more specific version as if that is the word for word rule.

Instead, 'An independant character with a mark of chaos' is a boolean expression. Either you are marked, or you are not. Kharn is marked, Abbadon is marked. For a boolean expression, the number of marks or kind of mark does not matter, its a simple true/false.

So when talking about Abbadon, who is an independant character with a mark of chaos, the rule simply reads:

Abbadon 'can not join a unit with a different mark of chaos.'

You do NOT read it for Abbadon as:

A model with the mark of khorne may not join a unit with the mark of tzeentch, nurgle or slaneesh.

A model with the mark of Tzeentch may not join a unit with the mark of khorne, nurgle or slaneesh.

A model with the mark slaneesh... ect ect.

DogofWar, do you see how your application, where you sub out the general term 'mark of chaos' for the specific marks and apply 1 rule 4 completely different ways also completely changes the meaning of the rule?

You first posts, with ordered logic, were much better, and once you fixed your faulty steps would have arrived at the same conclusion.

You are, after all, saying that the box of 8 crayons contains 8 different colors crayons that the 24 box holds, despite the 24 box HOLDING THE SAME COLORS OF CRAYONS.

You, along with others, seem to have grossly missed the point of what being different means when talking about groups, and continue to fall back on true, but completely irrelevant examples of 2 different things that does not apply to the rule.

For example, the boxes of crayons. Or the fruit of which several kinds exist. Or cars mentioned before.

Consider, what are your most recent 2 makes of car. I had a Focus and Berretta. According to your incorrect logic, when talking about the group of my 2 recent cars, if I wanted to by a new car that was different to those 2, like abbadon looking for a unit with a different mark, I SHOULD CHOOSE A CAR THAT I ALREADY HAVE FOR MY DIFFERENT CAR MAKE!. However, THAT IS NOT A DIFFERENT CAR MAKE!

If I had a focus and a berretta, and want a DIFFERENT car than those two, HOW IS A FOCUS DIFFERENT?

That is EXACTLY what you are saying with the marks of chaos that abbadon has.

Abbadon has the marks of Khorne, Nurgle, Slaneesh, and Tzeentch. According to you, if Abbadon wanted a DIFFERENT MARK then he should choose khorne? Khorne is not a different mark to him!

I feel like gamesworkshop writes these badly written rules on purpose to keep people from uniting against their annual price hikes.....

The rule isn't asking for a comparison of marks though. It doesn't tell you to check each mark against each other.

It says a character with a mark as the identifier. Who does the rule apply to? A character with a mark.

Cannot join a unit. Here is the effect.

With a different mark. This is the exception.

Abaddon is a marked character. He goes to join berserkers. Are they in possession of a similar mark? Yes. He can join.

Savageconvoy, I would say it that the berserkers mark is not different from the set of marks abbadon has. But I know what you ment.

They are also in possession of a different mark. So you cannot join.

You have been denied permission to join 3 times, and allowed once. You dont get to join

Again: why are you only checking the similar mark? You are explicitly told to look for DIFFERENCES in the units and characters Mark!

nosferatu1001 wrote:
They are also in possession of a different mark. So you cannot join.

You have been denied permission to join 3 times, and allowed once. You dont get to join

Again: why are you only checking the similar mark? You are explicitly told to look for DIFFERENCES in the units and characters Mark!

So we can make cute little partial analogies about kittens, fruit, and crayons... of course.

'An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos.'

Here we go again... Abby doesn't have a mark, he has four marks. You can be cute about it but the fact is he has more than a mark.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
'An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos.'

Here we go again... Abby doesn't have a mark, he has four marks. You can be cute about it but the fact is he has more than a mark.

But he has a mark. And therefore the rule applies. It was addressed in the this thread.

After a quick read it is clear that Abbadon can join with a unit that has one of his Mark of Chaos.
He has them no doubt about it.
Note, he did not purchase a Mark. He just has them.

castellan wrote:
After a quick read it is clear that Abbadon can join a unit with a unit that has one of his Mark of Chaos.
He has them no doubt about it.
Note, he did not purchase a Mark. He just has them.

And that has absolute nothing to do with the debate at hand.

rigeld2 wrote:

castellan wrote:
After a quick read it is clear that Abbadon can join a unit with a unit that has one of his Mark of Chaos.
He has them no doubt about it.
Note, he did not purchase a Mark. He just has them.

And that has absolute nothing to do with the debate at hand.

I think it does.
Even if it does not, I can still make a comment.

castellan wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

castellan wrote:
After a quick read it is clear that Abbadon can join a unit with a unit that has one of his Mark of Chaos.
He has them no doubt about it.
Note, he did not purchase a Mark. He just has them.

And that has absolute nothing to do with the debate at hand.

I think it does.
Even if it does not, I can still make a comment.

What relevance does him purchasing the Marks or not have?

rigeld2 wrote:

castellan wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

castellan wrote:
After a quick read it is clear that Abbadon can join a unit with a unit that has one of his Mark of Chaos.
He has them no doubt about it.
Note, he did not purchase a Mark. He just has them.

And that has absolute nothing to do with the debate at hand.

I think it does.
Even if it does not, I can still make a comment.

What relevance does him purchasing the Marks or not have?

It means that the game or codex gives or assigns 4 Marks of Chaos.
Look at page 30. Then take a look at page 57.
I have read this entire thread with interest.. So much so that I decided to see for myself. For me and for now the answer is clear.

Yes. He has all 4 marks.
Maybe you could clarify why the "ownership" of the marks is relevant?

rigeld2 wrote:
Yes. He has all 4 marks.
Maybe you could clarify why the "ownership" of the marks is relevant?

I am sorry but I don't know what you mean by "ownership".
I say that he has 4 Marks of Chaos. If a unit has one of those 4 marks he may join it.

castellan wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Yes. He has all 4 marks.
Maybe you could clarify why the "ownership" of the marks is relevant?

I am sorry but I don't know what you mean by "ownership".
I say that he has 4 Marks of Chaos. If a unit has one of those 4 marks he may join it.

And that begs the question:

If you are only comparing the unit's MoK to Abby's MoK then why are you arbitrarily picking the common mark and ignoring the different marks?

castellan wrote:
I am sorry but I don't know what you mean by "ownership".

You made a point of talking about the fact Abby doesn't purchase his Marks. What relevance does that have?

I say that he has 4 Marks of Chaos. If a unit has one of those 4 marks he may join it.

He also has 3 Marks that are different from the Unit's Mark.

 DeathReaper wrote:

castellan wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Yes. He has all 4 marks.
Maybe you could clarify why the "ownership" of the marks is relevant?

I am sorry but I don't know what you mean by "ownership".
I say that he has 4 Marks of Chaos. If a unit has one of those 4 marks he may join it.

And that begs the question:

If you are only comparing the unit's MoK to Abby's MoK then why are you arbitrarily picking the common mark and ignoring the different marks?

I did not arbitrarily pick. It is there. I did not ignore. I read the other included Marks and he still has them.

castellan wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

castellan wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Yes. He has all 4 marks.
Maybe you could clarify why the "ownership" of the marks is relevant?

I am sorry but I don't know what you mean by "ownership".
I say that he has 4 Marks of Chaos. If a unit has one of those 4 marks he may join it.

And that begs the question:

If you are only comparing the unit's MoK to Abby's MoK then why are you arbitrarily picking the common mark and ignoring the different marks?

I did not arbitrarily pick. It is there. I did not ignore. I read the other included Marks and he still has them.

And are they different from the Mark the unit has?
And would you mind answering my other question?

rigeld2 wrote:

castellan wrote:
I am sorry but I don't know what you mean by "ownership".

You made a point of talking about the fact Abby doesn't purchase his Marks. What relevance does that have?

I say that he has 4 Marks of Chaos. If a unit has one of those 4 marks he may join it.

He also has 3 Marks that are different from the Unit's Mark.

I made the point. The word purchase is in the codex. For me it helps understanding the rules. Yes he does have 3 marks that would be different a Unit's Mark. I understand that. That will probably will be different in all cases.

castellan wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

castellan wrote:
I am sorry but I don't know what you mean by "ownership".

You made a point of talking about the fact Abby doesn't purchase his Marks. What relevance does that have?

I say that he has 4 Marks of Chaos. If a unit has one of those 4 marks he may join it.

He also has 3 Marks that are different from the Unit's Mark.

I made the point. The word purchase is in the codex. For me it helps understanding the rules. Yes he does have 3 marks that would be different a Unit's Mark. I understand that. That will probably will be different in all cases.

The word "purchase" is not in the rule on page 30 nor in anything relevant on page 57.
So you're allowing an IC with a Mark of Nurgle to join a unit with a Mark of Khorne?
Isn't that what the rule on page 30 forbids?

2nd paragraph, 1st sentence.
Or just the 2nd sentence.