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The rules for Warptalons are incredibly disappointing. So expensive and while devastatingly effective against a very narrow selection of troops(that you will never see on the table top) they chump it against most units in the game. I suggest the following to replace the Warptalon rules.


FA 4 Warp Talons and 1 Warp Talon Champion 120 points
Warp Talon 4 4 4 4 1 4 1 8 3+
Warp Talon Champ 4 4 4 4 1 4 2 8 3+

Jump Inantry

Equipment:
Power Armor
Twin Rending Claws

Special Rules:
Warpflame: Assault and defenisive grenades
Daemon
Champions of Chaos(Champion only)
Warpflame strike: Immediately after a unit of Warp Talons has arrived from reserve by deep strike, all enemy units withing X+d6 count as having hit by a weapon with the blind special rule. X is the number of Warp Talons in the unit.
The warp talons may also make a warp flame strike by passing over an enemy unit with their jump packs. In this case only 1 unit is effected.

May have up to 5 addtional warp talons may be added to the squad for 22 points/model
May have VotLW for 2ppm
MoN MoT MoK 4ppm, MoS 3ppm
Any model in the unit may exchange his rending claws for a pair a lightning claws for 10 points.

What is wrong with the current ones ?
I've been having quite the blast with them recently.

 mayfist wrote:
What is wrong with the current ones ?
I've been having quite the blast with them recently.

For how much they cost, they should be able to do something against Teq. They also arent particularly good against things that dont have 3+ saves. They cant handle walkers or MCs. Because they are so expensive they cannot afford to charge things that are in cover. When they do find a nice ripe 3+ save squad sitting out of cover it usually costs far less than they do. They charge, lose one to overwatch and then wipe the squad. Wipe them so fast that the next turn they get shot.

Maybe they just need some form of jsj, so they basically jump out of the warp, tear the crap out of their target and (on a test of some sort) jump back in to the warp.

If the scenario above that presents a problem, try some more coordinated attacks.

Hahaha yeah they kinda remind me of eldar units that way... or tyranids in 5th.

Kind of expensive for what they do, narrow usefulness, seem like they have a lot of overlap with other units in the book that can be built with more versatility.

I'm sure they can be used, and I'm sure they have some times when they are great, but they just feel so unexciting to me.

What are Rending Claws? Why not give them the pair of lightining claws they come with now?

 Lucre wrote:

I'm sure they can be used, and I'm sure they have some times when they are great, but they just feel so unexciting to me.

Well, we are talking about a unit from the 6th ed CSM codex ...

I think the Warp Talons only need Frag/Krak Grenades and Heroic Intervention instead of the Warpflame Strike. Oh and a 4 ppm Tzeentch mark and access to Icons.

 Grey Templar wrote:
What are Rending Claws? Why not give them the pair of lightining claws they come with now?

lightning claws make them too narrow and too expensive.

Heroic Intervention alone would at least make them tactically worth considering.

Not used them at all yet, but they look useful against MEQ.
My gut instinct would be to drop them on backfield dev squads / long fangs / equivalents, tearing them a new one then soaking up a round of shooting while your nasty spikey things close the range.
Others that have used them can probably advise better.

 Exergy wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
What are Rending Claws? Why not give them the pair of lightining claws they come with now?

lightning claws make them too narrow and too expensive.

Each Warp Talon is the equivilent price of the pair of Lightning Claws they wield.

 Exergy wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
What are Rending Claws? Why not give them the pair of lightining claws they come with now?

lightning claws make them too narrow and too expensive.

Sooo whats a Rending Claw?

 Deadshot wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
What are Rending Claws? Why not give them the pair of lightining claws they come with now?

lightning claws make them too narrow and too expensive.

Each Warp Talon is the equivilent price of the pair of Lightning Claws they wield.

and a Chaos Terminator is 9 points cheaper than the terminator armor they wear
a TH/SS terminator is 40 points cheaper than the equipment and armor they carry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
What are Rending Claws? Why not give them the pair of lightining claws they come with now?

lightning claws make them too narrow and too expensive.

Sooo whats a Rending Claw?

a CCW that has the rending special rule.

Why not make them WS5, Ld 9, and have Warpflame Strike both give them assault/defensive grenades and allow them to always have Hammer of Wrath when they assault?

The problem I have with them is twofold: as a competitive unit they're not worth their points due to their limited uses and as a "fun" unit they're pretty boring.

On the competitive end I'd be cool with them having Rending and forcing invulnerable save re-rolls (their claws do rip reality apart, after all).

On the "fun" end something like Warp Shunt that triggers Warpflame Strike would be cool or some kind of special attack to make use of those foot claws (something like the Dark Eldar Jetbikes have).

How about this?

Warp Talons - 170pts

Unit - Aspiring champ + 4 warp talons

WS BS S T W I A LD SV
5 4 4 4 1 4 1 9 3+

Type - Jump Infantry, Champion is also Character
Weapons - 2 lightning claws with rending and re-roll inv saves
Special rules - Daemon, Warpflame Strike, Warp Shunt

Warpflame Strike - As per Codex CSM but also gives the unit assault and defensive grenades

Warp Shunt - Warp Talons have the ability to make short hops into and out of the warp when hunting their prey. Once per game a unit of Warp Hunters may instantly move 24" in the movement phase instead of moving normally. The unit may assault after this move but it counts as a disordered charge.

The biggest issue with Warp Talons is that for +15 points, you could have brought a Heldrake which is significantly more effective against MEQ sitting in cover than Warp Talons could ever be. They both take up the same slot, too, so tactically they just don't hold water against other units in the same codex.

Personally I say make them 25 points a guy instead of 30 and they'd be fine. Cost equivalent to Honor Guard except with mobility and 5+ invuln and fear due to demon rather than 2+ armor.

I actually find they are just fine against TEQ units, at least ones that are only toughness 4. They can't do much to a riptide but I find they shred Terminators just fine. They cause a ton of wounds, so they will fail some armor saves barring some incredibly bad luck.

Another issue is that they have absolutely NO shooting in an edition that is all about the shooting. Give them daemonic laser vision which would be bolt pistol shots at just 6" for all I care, but simply having something at all to shoot, for a unit that rules-wise wants to deep strike, and it'd be a much better unit.

Also worth noting: Warp Talons benefit so, so, so much from having an HQ with a jump pack with them if only for the Frag/Krak grenades that HQ brings with him. A Chaos Lord with a jump pack rocking Power Fist/Lightning Claw is almost necessary to run alongside them as it gives them both more reliable TEQ stopping power and grenades so they can assault into cover and not be crappy.

ALSO I JUST HAD AN AWESOME IDEA:
How about reworking Warpflame Strike to be something that causes damage rather than simply making guys near the impact take a blinding test? The fact they are useless the turn they deep strike is a big turn off for me so making Warpflame Strike actually do some damage I think would mitigate a lot of the futility of the unit.

And then I got to thinking we have precedence for that. Ever look at the rules for Elam Courbray off Forgeworld? His Warlord Trait could provide a template for reworking Warpflame Strike.

Just to save space, here is his Firefall rule inside the spoiler tags. You can find it here if you wish.

Assault grenades affect only the models that have them. So Talons are still ini1.
As for me, i think they should have ability to charge after deepstrike. That'll justify the cost.

 koooaei wrote:
Assault grenades affect only the models that have them.

Oh, you're right. I guess I never looked at the rule closely enough to notice it specifically just says "models" and not "units with" like every other paragraph talking about assault grenades. :(

If you really want to have some fun with themtry this, I hit them with the grimior and mark theme Tzeentch 2++ FTW. and if I ned to charge into cover I have my skull cannons help out with that problem.

 jmpnfool wrote:
If you really want to have some fun with themtry this, I hit them with the grimior and mark theme Tzeentch 2++ FTW. and if I ned to charge into cover I have my skull cannons help out with that problem.

Good idea but IIRC Mark of Tzeentch cannot increase your invuln save above 3++, including another source such as the Grimoire (this has been argued to death on the YMDC forum so no wish to start it again here).

Also not everyone wants to use allies to shore up a unit in their codex which should have had grenades to start with.

I'm sorry but warp talons are fast and come with 2 LC even if warpflame strike is naff you can simply run these guys in behind a land raider and they still kill a lot of stuff. After chosen these guys are the best source for mass ap3 cc attacks.

 rohansoldier wrote:

Good idea but IIRC Mark of Tzeentch cannot increase your invuln save above 3++, including another source such as the Grimoire (this has been argued to death on the YMDC forum so no wish to start it again here).

Also not everyone wants to use allies to shore up a unit in their codex which should have had grenades to start with.

This is very true. The better way to do it as allies is to run Grimoire and any OTHER mark, because the Grimoire will give basic Warp Talons a 3++. If you wanted to go more defensive, 3++ with T5 nurgle guys is fairly good, or you can be more offensively minded by going Mark of Slaanesh or Khorne.

But, I agree with you. Considering most people think Battle Brothers is stupid anyway, I'm of the mind if you have to bring an allied detachment of a different army to make a unit good, it's not a good unit or it's in the wrong codex to begin with.

It's one of the reasons I have beef with Azrael's rules. He's the chapter master of the Dark Angels yet he's better off joining units in battle brother codices. Black Templar can have 20 man blobs which his 4++ to the unit buff is pretty nasty on, and IG can have enormous huge blobs of Penal Colonists which, a 4++ on any 50 man unit even if they are just T3 is pretty silly too. I wish his rules better synced within the codex itself.

It's an uninteresting unit, Raptors with LCs. The solution to this is, imo, not to make them even more like raptors (No LC's, grenades, etc.). They ought be less like raptors. As is the blind rule is useless; it's too short range and with only one init test its not likely to work anyway. I like the ideas of increasing blind range, maybe also make it be multiple hits from a blind weapon dependent on unit size. The teleport idea is fun but 24" plus assaulting seems a bit over the top.

Add Warp Jump Generator, Veil of Darkness, Skyleap to the list of rules worth taking a look at when trying to fix these losers.

Warpflame strike gives the unit assault grenades and allows them to assault from deep strike.

Adding piles of rules to a unit is poor design in my opinion. Using the standard rules or possibly minimal universal rules would seem to be the best track.

Lightning Claws make it impossible to use assault grenades, although some modelling (Cough Grey Knight Terminator wrist weapons cough) has made this former truism less true. I would keep it though.

In this 6th Edition, no-one gets to assault from reserve, disembarking or deepstrike, so that isn't going to happen either.

I would adjust Warpflame Strike to be more useful to them on the charge. Their arrival from the Warp is already covered by Deep Strike.
I would say:
"Their claws slice through reality, surrounding the Warp Talons with unnerving vistas of immatrium that flash and vanish, searing into their foes eyes as they approach. The overwhelming psychic discord is horrifying to behold.
Units charged by a model with the Warpflame Strike rule must test as if struck by a weapon with the Blind special rule, immediately before the Initiative 10 step in combat."

Now the WS1 of Blind is likely to help protect the Talons in combat, whereas it couldn't before.

I would drop the unit to maybe 125 points per unit, with additional Warp Talons worth 23 pts per model.

Id add that the blind test must be taken even if normally immune, yep even tanks, its a warp field damnit

I've always thought that WT would be more useful against tau and necrons, considering they have I2, all but the suit would most likely fail the test, making them much less threatening, and if they survive the BS1 countershooting, they'll shred Tau/Necrons.