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 Bastion of Mediocrity wrote:

@ Vladsimpaler

I really like your ideas, very flavorful. People would be screaming 3.5! 3.5! But it still wouldn't be that broken and frankly in your units you PAY for everything so that is cool. Less randomness is always nice, but I think your 1d6 beats their's.

Thanks, I really appreciate it! If you like that, I recommend you check out this, also by me: http://www.scribd.com/doc/110927618/Warhammer-40-000-Codex-Legions-of-Khorne
(I know people are sick of me flogging it around but I think it's the best critique of the Chaos codex as a whole)

Well, the main thing I'd love to see is the pointless restriction on mixing marks removed. Not being able to do a fluffy Soul Hunter-inspired mixed-mark group/army is hurting.

And some other bits and bolts from the 4th Edition book: 4 Things I Miss from the Old Chaos Codex

@ Vladsimpaler, not to derail the thread, I scanned through your Khorne army list and enjoyed how you integrated the chaos marines and deamons together. I still dream they will do this for each god legion one day. Will give it a more thorough read when I have time.

@Zweischneid: I also thought the lash had interesting potential and liked the symbiosis of two units working together. I never played more than a single lash in an army as I play for fun and not WAAC so for my group is was just a unique Chaos ability that is unfortunately gone.

 Fifty wrote:
The whinging about this codex is absolutely absurd. The basic CSMs are better equipped than their vanilla counterpoints, and cheaper, and have better options - you can have essentially rhino-based assault marines as troops. Chosen are better than Veterans, and can be troops rather than just scoring. All of the cult troops can be scoring. Bikes are cheaper than their marine counterparts. So they can't be troops? Boohoo. Terminators are cheap, and may not be as good as vanilla terminators, but can be upgraded to have combi-weapons and marks reasonably inexpensively. So you can't have cult terminators? Boohoo, give them a mark. Raptors cheaper than assault marines, and cause fear, whilst losing the regular vanilla rules. Havocs significantly cheaper than their counterparts, lose plasma cannons, but gain autocannons...

Seriously, I have never known such whinging as I have seen for this codex. You may not have an uberlist, but at least you have one.

So you came into this thread to whine about most of the people here bringing up legitimate problems in a constructive fashion?

You seem to infer that the army list is perfect, which it isn't. Sure it's not as bad as some (key word, some) of the people in this post make it out to be, but that doesn't mean it's flawless. As I said in my previous post here, it's one of the most balanced Codex books on the market right now, but some of the units (Warp Talons, Possessed, Helbrutes, etc) are simply not up-to-par with the rest of the Codex and aren't worth their points (aka they could have been done better).

As for things being left out of the Codex (Cult Terminators, etc) that is a legitimate complaint. It is something that could have been easily done rules-wise and GW could have made a killing off of new models (if they chose to), but they chose not to for whatever reason. The continued trend to remove the vast majority of the God-specific gifts is a bit of a let down for any Chaos player who has been playing for a long time (2nd Edition here).

You have to understand, Fifty, that Chaos players have been ping-ponged around continually from different design philosophies since 3rd Edition, seemingly GW can't make up their minds on how they want the army to act and function. I think Chaos has gained and lost (and gained) the most units and rules since their first 3rd Edition Codex, it's enough to make a player's head spin and it becomes annoying when you buy miniatures that are then nullified by the next Codex, something most other 40k armies haven't had to deal with in the large amounts that Chaos players have had. So you'll have to forgive the Chaos player-base from raising concerns about the new Codex.

current 6th ed codex is another renegade codex. somethings need to be improved some are fine where they are at.

but what people really want is just a toned down version of the 3.5 dex that allows you to focus on the chaos legions with out being Overpowered (go go mighty doooommfist)

Things that current could use some upgrades, hellbrutes, defiler, and predator should have upgade options for hades auto cannons.

chosen need to be similar to SM vet squads, ie everyone should be able to upgrade to special weapons or combi at the vert least.

Thousand sons could use an overhaul.. i mean your paying 150 pts for 5 guys with ap3 bolters and a 4++ save. if they had 2 wounds i would understand that price but without it they can be easily overtaken by Reg CSM. heck at 150 points you could have 31 cultists with 3 Hstubbers or flamers that would be more effective then the 5 thousand sons

 Ninjacommando wrote:
current 6th ed codex is another renegade codex. somethings need to be improved some are fine where they are at.

but what people really want is just a toned down version of the 3.5 dex that allows you to focus on the chaos legions with out being Overpowered (go go mighty doooommfist)

Things that current could use some upgrades, hellbrutes, defiler, and predator should have upgade options for hades auto cannons.

chosen need to be similar to SM vet squads, ie everyone should be able to upgrade to special weapons or combi at the vert least.

Thousand sons could use an overhaul.. i mean your paying 150 pts for 5 guys with ap3 bolters and a 4++ save. if they had 2 wounds i would understand that price but without it they can be easily overtaken by Reg CSM. heck at 150 points you could have 31 cultists with 3 Hstubbers or flamers that would be more effective then the 5 thousand sons

That price may be because of the Sorcerer, but then that means that he's around 40 points, which is just dumb. I think Thousand Sons have their uses (mainly killing marines, but against hordes the Soul Blaze would really help), but generally they aren't that good, especially compared to Cultists.

Compared to Plague Marines, they are sort of similar in that they take a lot to kill. TSons have a 4+ invuln while PMs have T5 and FnP. Granted, PMs are probably better in that regard, but still, a 4++ is not bad at all. I think that if TSons had the Brotherhood of Sorcerers rule that'd make them a bit more worth it with two psychic powers per squad (Aspiring Sorc. + BoS). Another handicap is the requirement to only choose from Tzeentch unless you're Psyker (ML2) or higher.

2 wounds almost makes sense, since they are just suits of armor walking around. I don't see how body-less immortal super-soldiers would be put down by a single bolter shot. Actually, you could work FnP into each cult troop. Berzerkers because they're just angry, Noise Marines because they like the pain, Plague Marines because they;re Plague marines, and TSons because they aren't actually alive, although a 4++ and FNP might be a bit much.

The Sorc is 58 pts 2 points lower than the HQ sorc. and the AP 3 bolter is really lackluster. your paying 150 points for a meq killing squad that is worse at killing meq then standard bolter spam because of the ammounts of cover in this game. in the open yes they are good with cover... reg marines are better.

IMO Ts should be reg bolters 2w, FnP, EW, 5++, and the Sorc getting 3.5 doombolt with upgrade options of either 1 extra mastery level or the ability to BUY different powers.

oh yeah and the option to upgrade the squad to terminators at 18 pts/ model

 Zweischneid wrote:
Well, the main thing I'd love to see is the pointless restriction on mixing marks removed. Not being able to do a fluffy Soul Hunter-inspired mixed-mark group/army is hurting.

And some other bits and bolts from the 4th Edition book: 4 Things I Miss from the Old Chaos Codex

Quit flogging your terrible blog. Nobody cares. You know nothing about Chaos nor will you ever. You think that it makes sense according to the background to put a Slaaneshi sorcerer in a unit of Khorne Berzerkers.

 Punisher Gatling Cannon wrote:
Do you really believe berzerkers need 6 attacks on the charge 7 with the champion.

My BA Death company get 8 otc at WS/S5 with FNP, no less.

Did I mention they get re-rolls to hit and wound?

It's not that unreasonable. unless they're really, really cheap. Like the cost of Guardsmen.

(NB, I can't say they need it because I don't know what bezerkers look like in the new edition. the squad I brought up is expensive, close to 600 points. If they're the same cost they should have equal output. - maybe if they get a boon from an HQ and an elite hero like that unit I've suggested does.)

 blood reaper wrote:
We are trying to improve it, not add another Death Company clone to the game.

well then. ignore my point.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
Quit flogging your terrible blog. Nobody cares. You know nothing about Chaos nor will you ever. You think that it makes sense according to the background to put a Slaaneshi sorcerer in a unit of Khorne Berzerkers.

Mate, While I don't care about his blog either, you don't need to put him down. He puts passion into his hobby same as you put passion into his. You don't agree that's one thing, but you don't need to be a prick about it.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:
Well, the main thing I'd love to see is the pointless restriction on mixing marks removed. Not being able to do a fluffy Soul Hunter-inspired mixed-mark group/army is hurting.

And some other bits and bolts from the 4th Edition book: 4 Things I Miss from the Old Chaos Codex

Quit flogging your terrible blog. Nobody cares. You know nothing about Chaos nor will you ever. You think that it makes sense according to the background to put a Slaaneshi sorcerer in a unit of Khorne Berzerkers.

Well, part of the beauty of having a blog is that one can write down an argument and have it "ready" for discussions where it is relevant. And I can add them with a simple link (which you are free to ignore), rather than rewriting the same 1000 words in similar discussions on different boards or forums.

As much effort as you put into making a fan-dex, etc.. should really give blogging a try. It's fun.

Thousand Sons have gone through a lot of iterations.

Back in 2nd ed they were immune to strength 4 and below entirely. Couldn't hurt them with it.

In 3rd ed they got 2 wounds and fearless for 18 points a model, not bad. But in 3.5 they cost 25 points, struck at initiative 1 and were generally tremendously useless.

In 4th they got the whole AP 3 bolter and an invulnerable save thing thrown on them. Pretty big rethink.

I think they could use feel no pain. It's not like it's unique to plague marines, Noise marines can get it now. T5 is Plague marine's thing. Feel no pain logically makes a ton of sense for Thousand Sons and it'd help them be better at their other role of being fearless 4+ invulnerable objective sitters who are annoying to shift off with things that normally murder marines.

The other big thing is fixing the Discipline of Tzeentch.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:
Well, the main thing I'd love to see is the pointless restriction on mixing marks removed. Not being able to do a fluffy Soul Hunter-inspired mixed-mark group/army is hurting.

And some other bits and bolts from the 4th Edition book: 4 Things I Miss from the Old Chaos Codex

Quit flogging your terrible blog. Nobody cares. You know nothing about Chaos nor will you ever. You think that it makes sense according to the background to put a Slaaneshi sorcerer in a unit of Khorne Berzerkers.

Sorry, but you don't have a monopoly on expressing your opinions about the Chaos Codex. If you can't handle differing opinions I'd suggest not getting involved in the discussion in the first place.

And your post kinda touches on what the main problem with the book is: people didn't get what they wanted, so they complain. There are a lot of legitimate complaints (TSons, Berzerkers, Mutilators etc) but they drown in the complaints of how the new daemon engines look bad, suck and how CSM shouldn't just be spiky marines while demanding Drop Pods, ATSKNF and TH/SS Terminators.

Quit flogging your terrible blog. Nobody cares. You know nothing about Chaos nor will you ever. You think that it makes sense according to the background to put a Slaaneshi sorcerer in a unit of Khorne Berzerkers.

First, I actually agree with zwei, about what he misses of the old dex.
Second, Nobody gave you the authority to tell others what blog thay can sponsor
Third, Your fandex is actually... very bad! This was unneeded just like your rant on zwei's blog.

I personally would have liked to see more special rules for the different legions to make them well unique kinda like they where before in one of the previous editions i belive.

After all i don't see the Alpha legion using a Dark Apostle since fluff wise that would be more what makes the Word bearers unique.

I tend to agree alot with what Bastion of Mediocrity pointed out as well since that would add some extra nice touches to it all.

Scipio Africanus wrote:
My BA Death company get 8 otc...

How? 2 attacks base, +1 attack for two weapons, +2 attacks for Rage on the charge. Where are you getting 8 from?

 Zweischneid wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:
Well, the main thing I'd love to see is the pointless restriction on mixing marks removed. Not being able to do a fluffy Soul Hunter-inspired mixed-mark group/army is hurting.

And some other bits and bolts from the 4th Edition book: 4 Things I Miss from the Old Chaos Codex

Quit flogging your terrible blog. Nobody cares. You know nothing about Chaos nor will you ever. You think that it makes sense according to the background to put a Slaaneshi sorcerer in a unit of Khorne Berzerkers.

Well, part of the beauty of having a blog is that one can write down an argument and have it "ready" for discussions where it is relevant. And I can add them with a simple link (which you are free to ignore), rather than rewriting the same 1000 words in similar discussions on different boards or forums.

As much effort as you put into making a fan-dex, etc.. should really give blogging a try. It's fun.

Which of course conveniently gives you more page views? I don't get paid for advertisers for what I do.

 punkow wrote:

Third, Your fandex is actually... very bad! This was unneeded just like your rant on zwei's blog.

Oh, I'm sorry, how about you post something useful instead? You just strike me as reactionary because my codex fixes several of the problems that you mentioned, including Eternal Warrior for Daemon Princes and Cult Terminators.

But that's fine, keep playing Draigowing and using Abaddon in 1500 points.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Sorry, but you don't have a monopoly on expressing your opinions about the Chaos Codex. If you can't handle differing opinions I'd suggest not getting involved in the discussion in the first place.

So? You couldn't handle me saying that Black Templars don't deserve another codex. And I bet that you'd be ticked if I suggested that Black Templars should have female marines. There comes a point when opinions stop meaning anything when the opinions are ridiculous.

And your post kinda touches on what the main problem with the book is: people didn't get what they wanted, so they complain. There are a lot of legitimate complaints (TSons, Berzerkers, Mutilators etc) but they drown in the complaints of how the new daemon engines look bad, suck and how CSM shouldn't just be spiky marines while demanding Drop Pods, ATSKNF and TH/SS Terminators.

Would you mind taking this discussion back into one of the threads in General Discussion which handle exactly this topic? Personally I liked the suggestions so far would love to see more.

Hellbrutes should be given the Deamon USR for the 5+ invulnerable save.It would give them a bit more needed durability.

rollawaythestone wrote:
Hellbrutes should be given the Deamon USR for the 5+ invulnerable save.It would give them a bit more needed durability.

Imho it would be fine if Daemonic Possession would grant Daemon usr (Hellbrutes should be able to get it tough). ~20 points should be adequate for this. It could even keep the eating-passengers-thing if it would be too strong otherwise.

Another thing I would have liked to see would be Inferno Bolts for ICs like they did with Blight Grenades.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Sorry, but you don't have a monopoly on expressing your opinions about the Chaos Codex. If you can't handle differing opinions I'd suggest not getting involved in the discussion in the first place.

So? You couldn't handle me saying that Black Templars don't deserve another codex. And I bet that you'd be ticked if I suggested that Black Templars should have female marines. There comes a point when opinions stop meaning anything when the opinions are ridiculous.

The difference being that I argue my case instead of just telling those who disagree to shut up. It's really petty.

Back on topic, Eternal Warrior would do DPs well. Khorne Berzerkers should frankly be at least as good as Death Company at ripping stuff apart, not the sad state they're at now. Tzeentch could use a buff across the board.

There are a lot of pretty decent options as well, though; cheap Havocs with Autocannons, T5 Obliterators, Bikes, Spawn, Plague Marines and basic CSM are all pretty good.

I really think Typhus should have been T6 or have Eternal Warrior. It seems silly that the big and bad plague marine general doesn't have an elevated toughness over them.

Warp talons need a 3 to 5 point price drop or more be more effective. Perhaps give them ability to move using deep strike rules like gate of infinity and ability to re-roll scatter, or assault a unit without needing line of sight to it.

Possessed need a small price drop.

A couple more artefacts that fitted legion fluff would be nice, like some scary night lord claws and/or a book of alpharius's secret tactics that grant an appropriate warlord trait.

 Neconilis wrote:

Scipio Africanus wrote:
My BA Death company get 8 otc...

How? 2 attacks base, +1 attack for two weapons, +2 attacks for Rage on the charge. Where are you getting 8 from?

Might of heroes from a BA Libby.

Edit: Or I could realise that MOH only applies to one model. Well, there goes $150.

Oh, I'm sorry, how about you post something useful instead? You just strike me as reactionary because my codex fixes several of the problems that you mentioned, including Eternal Warrior for Daemon Princes and Cult Terminators.

But that's fine, keep playing Draigowing and using Abaddon in 1500 points.

I don't want to start a fight here but what I wanted to underline is that you made a completely useless insult to Zwei writing something like "Quit flogging your terrible blog. Nobody cares. You know nothing about Chaos nor will you ever". Btw I think that your codex is bad because beside some actually good idea you find some very silly things like
- totally unneded for S5 T5 HQs (even abaddon is S4 T5... come one)
- an absurd "they can assault in the first tun if the enemy is GK" unlike everyone else
- They cannot lose if they don't have models on the table like everyone else

lastly, if I like to play my converted Abaddon, or I love my Draigowing ... well that's none of your business.

Btw I don't think that proposing a total revamp of a new dex is useful. I prefer to suggest something to add to allow greater personalization.

Great Zeus's beard guys hows about we get back on topic? The topic of house rules or things you wish they did that you might never put into play but GW might see and put into FAQs to make the new codex better?

Like giving Lords, Sorcerers, Warpsmiths, and Dark Apostles access to either Terminator armor or a 2+ armor save like Fleshmetal?

 Vladsimpaler wrote:


Which of course conveniently gives you more page views? I don't get paid for advertisers for what I do.

You think I make money of my blog?

Even if I plastered it all out with adsense, I would earn about US$ 0.29 per day according to the website checkers: http://www.worthofweb.com/website-value/pinsofwar.com

Even high-traffic (and ad-crammed) sites like BOLS average only a few hundred dollars a day max. Hardly worth that effort and certainly less than I get paid in daily fees offline.

If you wanna blog or build a website for money, don't do it in the wargaming industry. Seriously. People who blog about 40K, etc.., do it because that's what they love to blog about.

OMG MODquisition is here!
Btw, back on topic, I think that what we could really do is to devise an "add-on" to the Codex that allows players to customize better their armies and NOT a fandex of sort.
I'd suggest something including:
-extra options for the daemon prince: EW and a 2+ save for examples, of course paying for them
- extra "traits" for Hqs to represent Legions
-Cult Terminators

The core concept is that those things should be extra rules and the CSM dex should reamin totally valid in their context.

 punkow wrote:
OMG MODquisition is here!
Btw, back on topic, I think that what we could really do is to devise an "add-on" to the Codex that allows players to customize better their armies and NOT a fandex of sort.
I'd suggest something including:
-extra options for the daemon prince: EW and a 2+ save for examples, of course paying for them
- extra "traits" for Hqs to represent Legions
-Cult Terminators

The core concept is that those things should be extra rules and the CSM dex should reamin totally valid in their context.

EW i can understand, but it seems 2+ armour would be too much or the DP. Just think of the loadout of mark of tzentch, EW, 2+ armour, Blackmace, wings. You would have a huge tank with a 2+ re-rollable armour save. It's very hard justifying any 2+ save on an MC IMO. I guess that's only IMO because the GK Dreads have it

thisisnotpancho wrote:
It's very hard justifying any 2+ save on an MC IMO. I guess that's only IMO because the GK Dreads have it

So does the Hive Tyrant w/Armoured Shell and the Tyrannofex (who also has 6 Wounds) .