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CrowSplat wrote:
So what about a situation like this.

Following the events of the Badab war, the High Lords of Terra become concerned with the ramifications of having a chapter like the Carcharodons on the loose. A chapter with almost no records that operates beyond the scope of the Imperium with the potential to show up just about anywhere with little to know warning.

In an effort to instill a more codex adherent influence as well as introduce a known element within their ranks, the High Lords have decreed that the Carcharodons are to take on the remains of a chapter devastated by heavy combat in defence of the Imperium. Note we're talking about 40 to 50 marines left and no spaceships or vehicles of any kind.

Would that be a plausible scenario?

When creating fluff like this it is better to stay away from company chapters, yes its ok to have fluff about known chapters (e.g. a dark angels company due to the number of unnamed company masters and the number of masters each company has had) but it is another thing to write fluff that effects a whole chapter.

It is also very unlikely that the Carcharodons would care, even if they accept these marines they would have little effect on the chapter and only for a small amout of time. The inducted marines would only last one generation (the chapter's apothacaries would not pollute their genetic stock) and would most likely just be used as auxillary combat marines. Just imagine how a chapter master would react if the high lords said this marine from a unknown, now defunct chapter will advise you on organisation, its not going to end well.

Most defunct chapters will be either inducted into the deathwatch, go to train new foundings or go on a short lived crusade.

They last few members of the Astral Knights were absorbed into the Sable Swords

Even if a small contingent was 'absorbed' it would likely that those marines would never become true members and would probably never repaint their armour. Especially if those marines are from a chapter like the Astral Knights, an honoured and highly respected chapter.

supposedly the II legion was absorbed into the ultramarines, hence why they were so large.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
supposedly the II legion was absorbed into the ultramarines, hence why they were so large.

This ,might well be true, however you need to recall two things. 1: If true it was done at the Emperor's say so and no one else's. 2: this was well before the current set up of the SM's or creation of chapters and foundings of said chapters.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
supposedly the II legion was absorbed into the ultramarines, hence why they were so large.

This ,might well be true, however you need to recall two things. 1: If true it was done at the Emperor's say so and no one else's. 2: this was well before the current set up of the SM's or creation of chapters and foundings of said chapters.

It's a matter of interpretation. Maybe the guy just died slipping on a roller-skate and his backhead caved in when he landed, and the Legion was without guidance. Whether or not the Legion was absorbed into the Ultramarines is just a matter of interpretation. But I agree with the core, if Empy said jump, Robute asked how high?

Well most asked how high for a time anyhow, then ya know they caught on to the fact he was a dick.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
Well most asked how high for a time anyhow, then ya know they caught on to the fact he was a dick.

Robute, or Empy, or both?

Mostly The Emp, but daddies boy was not far behind.

Absorbing a defunct legoin however would explain why some UM successors are pretty odd when compared to the standard of their geneseed. They're actually not a single heritage - they have geneseed from three Legions that just are officially Ultramarine succesors.

 Darth Bob wrote:
There's a bit of fluff in The First Heretic that points to the fact that the Ultramarines "absorbed" the remnants of the II and XI Legions after the death/betrayal/heresy of their Primarchs. This is quite possibly why the Ultramarines were such a massive Legion compared to the others.

This was immediately dismissed as baseless rumor practically in the next sentence, and has since been soundly disavowed by the author. The Ultras are as big as they are because of their very efficient recruiting and them winning battles with fewer casualties than any other Legion. Having an entire Empire to draw recruits from also helps.

Anyway, the only instance of a dwindled Chapter being absorbed into another Chapter was what finally got Huron declared traitor and heretic, and popped off the Badab War.

 Omegus wrote:

 Darth Bob wrote:
There's a bit of fluff in The First Heretic that points to the fact that the Ultramarines "absorbed" the remnants of the II and XI Legions after the death/betrayal/heresy of their Primarchs. This is quite possibly why the Ultramarines were such a massive Legion compared to the others.

This was immediately dismissed as baseless rumor practically in the next sentence, and has since been soundly disavowed by the author. The Ultras are as big as they are because of their very efficient recruiting and them winning battles with fewer casualties than any other Legion. Having an entire Empire to draw recruits from also helps.

Anyway, the only instance of a dwindled Chapter being absorbed into another Chapter was what finally got Huron declared traitor and heretic, and popped off the Badab War.

The Ultras are dressing in bright blue impossible to camouflage anywhere as blue is not a natural color save for the sky. And they have fewer causalities than any other legion? I agree with the second part. The first part seems ignorant unless they are fighting entirely color-blind enemies. They might or might not have absorbed a legion to swell their ranks. But IRL they would be bombed to smithereens by bombers looking for the bright blue people moving at rapid speed through the cities.

That can be said about most Legions. They use heraldic colors to signal their strength to the enemy. RL is not relevant.

 Omegus wrote:
That can be said about most Legions. They use heraldic colors to signal their strength to the enemy. RL is not relevant.

Typical defense, but IRL is indeed relevant as most of the enemies they faces have never heard about them before, and sorry bucko but the Ultras is impossible to hide. While even the freaking Blood Angels could hide, the only other chapter I think would have that problem is the Emperor's Children, but purple is found infrequently in nature.

Imperial Fists?

 Omegus wrote:
Imperial Fists?

If you have played in the mud a little you have seen yellow mud. Heck even cack can be yellow if you have the right disease. Easy color to camouflage.

In any sort of dusty environment yellow is a relativly safe color for camo. Especially once it gets dirty.

Any other environment and yeah it becomes easy to spot.

Shiny gold yellow?

And regardless of color, unless their particular Legion methodology called for it, the Space Marines don't try to camouflage their position.

 Omegus wrote:
Shiny gold yellow?

And regardless of color, unless their particular Legion methodology called for it, the Space Marines don't try to camouflage their position.

Shiny gold yellow? Sure you ain't referring to a certain toilet-shaped U? The Imperial Fists has a more dull-colored armour. Much like a snack-bag, dull and unspectacular just like their tactics. You should spend more time playing in the mud.

And camouflage doesn't hurt. I didn't object to the fact that the Ultramarines has an effective program for recruitment, I objected more for them being the legion with the least causalities, and I care little for the IRL doesn't matter-defense. But that's me, and I don't care to have a falling out just because some guys substitute reality for their own.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 Omegus wrote:
Shiny gold yellow?

And regardless of color, unless their particular Legion methodology called for it, the Space Marines don't try to camouflage their position.

Shiny gold yellow? Sure you ain't referring to a certain toilet-shaped U? The Imperial Fists has a more dull-colored armour. Much like a snack-bag, dull and unspectacular just like their tactics. You should spend more time playing in the mud.

And camouflage doesn't hurt. I didn't object to the fact that the Ultramarines has an effective program for recruitment, I objected more for them being the legion with the least causalities, and I care little for the IRL doesn't matter-defense. But that's me, and I don't care to have a falling out just because some guys substitute reality for their own.

Considering we aren't, y'know, discussing reality, substitutions are perfectly acceptable. You have to shove minor logic out the window to accept some things (because how are you accepting the Warp and the Orks, and Eldar, and Space Marines and the Emperor and any of this setting otherwise), and the passive-aggressive "I don't want to fight, but I'll still patronizingly mock you, bucko, as an attempt to get the last word" isn't cool. Yes, to some extent, real-world logic will apply, but applying to reality to this setting will just make your head hurt and make it difficult to hold discussions.

I'd suggest they had the least casualties because they weren't on the front-lines in the Heresy, and thus sustained the least losses.

 Elector wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 Omegus wrote:
Shiny gold yellow?

And regardless of color, unless their particular Legion methodology called for it, the Space Marines don't try to camouflage their position.

Shiny gold yellow? Sure you ain't referring to a certain toilet-shaped U? The Imperial Fists has a more dull-colored armour. Much like a snack-bag, dull and unspectacular just like their tactics. You should spend more time playing in the mud.

And camouflage doesn't hurt. I didn't object to the fact that the Ultramarines has an effective program for recruitment, I objected more for them being the legion with the least causalities, and I care little for the IRL doesn't matter-defense. But that's me, and I don't care to have a falling out just because some guys substitute reality for their own.

Considering we aren't, y'know, discussing reality, substitutions are perfectly acceptable. You have to shove minor logic out the window to accept some things (because how are you accepting the Warp and the Orks, and Eldar, and Space Marines and the Emperor and any of this setting otherwise), and the passive-aggressive "I don't want to fight, but I'll still patronizingly mock you, bucko, as an attempt to get the last word" isn't cool. Yes, to some extent, real-world logic will apply, but applying to reality to this setting will just make your head hurt and make it difficult to hold discussions.

I'd suggest they had the least casualties because they weren't on the front-lines in the Heresy, and thus sustained the least losses.

Sorry that I came off that harshly, but I was sort of watching Mythbusters, with the statement from Adam Savage. But you are right, and I apologize for that one.

Anyway the most easy chapters to camouflage should be the Grey Knights and Space Wolves. Entering Boring yet practical-territory, we will make fog with grey figures, try to make that out bucko. Just to explain, making fog should be repetitively easy for either chapter's respective psykers.

 Beaviz81 wrote:


Sorry that I came off that harshly, but I was sort of watching Mythbusters, with the statement from Adam Savage. But you are right, and I apologize for that one.

Anyway the most easy chapters to camouflage should be the Grey Knights and Space Wolves. Entering Boring yet practical-territory, we will make fog with grey figures, try to make that out bucko. Just to explain, making fog should be repetitively easy for either chapter's respective psykers.

Fair enough, no harm done

And that's true, concealing an advance would definitely be easier for them, and any way to make the advance to the enemy's position without being gunned down is ideal.

I would argue that their armor can shrug off more small-arms fire, between that and their bulk, simply camo isn't as efficient, but authors are irritatingly indecisive as to how effective power armor is.

I'd say a larger effect, like fog or some sort of stealth technology would be more useful, but I don't think the Imperium has cloaking (and would they even accept its use?)

In the second Blood Angels omnibus after the main character's brother falls to chaos and much of the chapter goes with him Dante asks for tithes from the successor chapters to help bolster their forces because the chapter would fall without them...not sure if that's what you mean or not...

As far as I recall, the only chapter to make any real use of camo is the Mantis Warriors, but even then, their camo is more environmental than actually camouflaging their armour; they hide under sand dunes, in deep vegetation and so on which conceals them despite relatively garish (but subdued by Marine standards) armour.

Basically, Marine ego doesn't allow for camo. The more egotistical the chapter, the less they blend in.

Seems to me the only thing that is sure is the fluff provides enough room for everything to happen. Considering the strong independence many chapters keep (and are granted) from imperial command structure, I wouldn't be surprised if the crimson fists' decision between dying in glory and strategic retreat to rebuild was only two-ways because there were not willing to give up their identity as a second foundation chapter with proud tradition.
The decision of the high lords to brand the claws traitor because absorbing an heritage chapter on the other hand, might be founded solely in the fact that it is the right of the lords of terra, only, to decide about a chapter being founded, thus also about it's future. In deciding to absorb the tigers, huron claimed souvereignity over another chapter than his own, something that goes totally contraire to the decree to split up the legions into chapters of thousand in order to prevent too much power in the hand of one chapter master. In the case of the tithe of the BA successors to the blood angels, might be an exception because the tragical fate of their failing geneseed and their Mr. Goody image as "sparkling vampire cops". The flesh tearers surely would not have been granted that.
The fate of other chapters to be doomed might just be decided because space is russia is grand and the tzar is far away, as the sayword goes. In the end, while that deathwatch thing seems like some possibility to die out in honour for depleted chapters,in the end decisions of the Lords are probably made from case to case, if news about a chapter's fate reaches them in time, at all.

Concerning camouflage, in the good old days of RT, the use of camo schemes was part of the codex imperialis, albeit strictly reglemented. Indeed there were even proposed camo patterns with striking brilliant patterns. Subtext in the Compendium stated, the camo patterns for use in terran yellowish-brown deserts might be just the wrong thing in planet with cobalt-ammonium plains. After all, in spite of all that grim-dark, there is still some SF in 40k.
Now i dont want to insist that smurf uniforms are something other than heraldic. But in a world where an unprotected guardsman might survive direct shooting with self-propelled cal."incredible!" bullets on a distance of 25m by a genetically enhanced super-soldier with electronic vizor helmet, and power armour protects as well as the line of sandbags you are covering behind, camouflage might not be as important for marines. On the other hand, modern targetting systems identify even combattants completely in cover of earth holes by means of infra-red signature. Considering that is standard in every space marine helmet, plus there are things like biosignature scanners wich are non-existent today, why bother with camo?

 Beaviz81 wrote:
The Ultras are dressing in bright blue impossible to camouflage anywhere as blue is not a natural color save for the sky.

Apart from fish, plants, birds, reptiles and minerals, I think you need to go to a natural history museum. And then you are predicating your idea on a very incorrect view of Earth and not taking into account that evolution on other worlds may follow different paths leading to different local flaura.

You are also missing the point that during the Great Crusade the legions were a lightning bolt force that would have little use of camo in their engagements.

Yeah, I stand corrected.

Camouflage will always be useful even in wh40k. I'm buying that the Ultras had effective recruitment, but not that they had so fantastic low causality-rates compared to the other legions while conquering the second most planets, but it can be handwaved into they being born diplomats often convinced worlds to surrender while a more rash legion would just crusade people to death.

 Darth Bob wrote:
There's a bit of fluff in The First Heretic that points to the fact that the Ultramarines "absorbed" the remnants of the II and XI Legions after the death/betrayal/heresy of their Primarchs. This is quite possibly why the Ultramarines were such a massive Legion compared to the others.

This was an offhand supposition by a couple of Word Bearers. But it conflicts with a lot of other fluff and doesn't seem feasible. Even the author has joked that he didn't realize people would take it so seriously.

The reason for the Ultramarines being so much larger has been pretty clearly explained, even by the same author in a different novel. They were really, really good at making new Marines, and having the logistical supply chain in order to refresh their numbers. Plus, they took fewer casualties in battles much of the time because of their superior strategies and tactics under Guilliman's leadership.

We do "know" that Guilliman was discovered before the missing Primarchs, however. But yeah, like it was said above, the Ultramarines, to this day, have amongst the purest gene seed of the surviving First Founding Chapters, and that wouldn't be possible if they had intermixed with two other Legions.


Calling them the Carcharodons was FW's poor choice to Latinize the name to make it sound cooler. But they didn't fundamentally change the story of the Badab War in that regard. Changing the names to Latin always seems dumb, because the words still mean the same thing. "Latinizing" names seems out of flavor with the universe. After all, the names we have are "translated" into English from Gothic (the "Latin" sounding language of 40K) already. If you look at the list of official chapters from GW, there are no Chapters with Latin names. The closest you get are some Anglicized Latin words like Praetors.

In fact, the only example is Forgeworld's ridiculous decision to rename the Space Sharks into "Carcharodon Astra". Latinizing the words to make them sound more 40Kish. But, in the end, it actually doesn't sound very 40Kish at all, and still translates "Space Sharks". Latin words do sound pretty cool a lot of the time. And at least Carcharodon Astra is all "Latin" and thus translates evenly. I mean, I'm sure non-English speaking players give their Spess Mahreens names in their own native languages. But that's because no matter what you name a chapter, "in universe" it is said in Gothic. We type it in English here because, well, we live in the real world, and English is the most common language shared by 40K players (on this forum, at least). But ultimately, the Irate Platypi are still the Irate Platypi even if Anatinus Iratos sounds cooler (forgive my wretched Latin, it's just for example). And in the actual 40K universe, it's whatever Irate Platypi translates to into Gothic.

"Irate Platypi"

The Raptors chapter is into cammo big time.