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 TheCaptain wrote:

And since the discussion is X v. Y, sans armor and weapons, your entire post is null.

Try reading the question, next time.

You mean reading the question that I answered a page ago?
Then you can try to read and answer my question: what is the point of debating this when we all know that Marines win every time?
Being in power armor or terminator armor the Marines will always win, no contest really.

Well lets deconstruct each opponent (since I'm sick and have nothing better to do.

They both have re-enforced skeletons
They both stand between 7 and 7.5 feet tall
They both have enhanced strength to super human levels
They both have enhanced reflexes through augmentation of their nerves system
They both have a lifetime of training

When you break it down I think it's going to be a draw almost all of the time.

 bibblles wrote:
Well lets deconstruct each opponent (since I'm sick and have nothing better to do.

They both have re-enforced skeletons
They both stand between 7 and 7.5 feet tall
They both have enhanced strength to super human levels
They both have enhanced reflexes through augmentation of their nerves system
They both have a lifetime of training

When you break it down I think it's going to be a draw almost all of the time.

I agree on all except the lifetime of training. Marines have multiple lifetimes of training and experience.

For the first few posts I thought it was about the Greek Spartans.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:

And since the discussion is X v. Y, sans armor and weapons, your entire post is null.

Try reading the question, next time.

You mean reading the question that I answered a page ago?
Then you can try to read and answer my question: what is the point of debating this when we all know that Marines win every time?
Being in power armor or terminator armor the Marines will always win, no contest really.

You really have no idea what you're talking about.

 Kaldor wrote:

You really have no idea what you're talking about.

I know very well what I am talking about.

Space Marines would beat SPARTANS in any fight, be it range or close combat. Even if they are both naked and in the same room.

What is not to understand here?

I think a Space Marine would win, maybe not easily and probably with a wound or three but I think a Space Marine has the advantage. I think he has better energy stores and faster healing, so he can go more rounds than a Spartan could.

I think a Spartan vs a Space Marine in Power Armour with standard weapons would be more strung out.

Spartan vs Space Marine Terminator, well depends on what the Spartan is armed with. He only needs to destabilise the land under the terminator to make him fall over and the Space Marine is a lost cause. They need assistance to get up and have limited movement, fire arcs, and reaction times. They are more heavily protected, being like a walking tank but that comes at a cost like above.

As others have said, its all in who publishes it. Anyone recall the two batman/spawn crossover books from the 90's? In Images book batman was a know it all DICK, in the DC book Spawn was a n unrepentant psycho killer and a dick.

For myself the two are more or less even without armor. The Spartan honestly is most likely better trained and understands his gear better. They are more or less two ends the SM is biotechnology while the spartan is nano/cyber technology.

who wins is a toss up, as its who makes the first mistake, like most fights with well trained people.

Spartans, marines can't beat energy shielding. Now I understand high ranking astartes do have energy shielding, but spartan ones seem more sophisticated in addition to being standard

Well 40k does have such things, its simply they are rare and most folks will never even see one and few know how to make them.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:

You really have no idea what you're talking about.

I know very well what I am talking about.

Space Marines would beat SPARTANS in any fight, be it range or close combat. Even if they are both naked and in the same room.

What is not to understand here?

They are too evenly matched to make that call. If you insist otherwise, it's only through ignorance.

Be careful, your fanboyism is showing.

It's not my fanboyism, I know that because I played Halo. Even if SPARTANS are on pair when it comes to enchantments ( but I doubt that Chief could survive long under water or in vacuum of space ) I do not believe they have better armor ( Astartes armor can deflect tank shots even if it's weak in joints ) and I am not even going to start on weapons ( Assault Rifle vs. Bolter - you make the call ).
Even SPARTAN shields are weak, they are gone in one to three plasma shots.
I ma not even going to mention close combat, I can't remember how many times Elites with plasma sword kill me in one hit at full shields...
People are also argumenting that SPARTANS are tough because they can flip over a tank, Astartes can go trough tank with power fist or power axe.

I every other category Astartes are superior,
-They are immortal ( not sure for SPARTANS but I am pretty much sure they aren't since that was never mentioned ).
-They can lose much of their body and still fight on.
-They can fight more terrifying foes and being in more desperate situations and still emerge victorious.
-Some of them can cast psychic powers.
-They can yield more heavily weapons ( while SPARTANS can yield missile launchers I would love to see them yield MBT's cannon and Plasma Cannons ).

It's not fanboyism but reality.
Even if Astartes and SPARTANS are matched in close combat ( even there it's not a fair fight giving what their standard armament are and what kind of weapons can either yield ) in close combat the Astartes are champions ( just put any SPARTAN against Khorne Berzerker or Death Company marine and see how long the SPARTAN will last ). As for everything else Astartes are far better ( SPARTANS do not have their own fighting force, their own vehicles and walkers, their own fleets... ).

But truth be told I love either one of them, they are both protectors and defenders of Mankind even if they are so different from one another,

 Harriticus wrote:
Spartans, marines can't beat energy shielding. Now I understand high ranking astartes do have energy shielding, but spartan ones seem more sophisticated in addition to being standard

Have you not played any of the Halos?

Shields are not THAT GOOD. They are useful, but if you are planning on relying on them you are fethed. The basic rifle of a Space Marine could probably pen the shields of a Spartan after like 3 shots (remember, gun is full auto, so pretty much one burst)



Of course this is still ignoring the fact that THATS NOT WHAT THE OP ASKED! Why do we keep talking about armor and weapons? The question was who would win in a boxing match.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
It's not my fanboyism, I know that because I played Halo. Even if SPARTANS are on pair when it comes to enchantments ( but I doubt that Chief could survive long under water or in vacuum of space ) I do not believe they have better armor ( Astartes armor can deflect tank shots even if it's weak in joints ) and I am not even going to start on weapons ( Assault Rifle vs. Bolter - you make the call ).
Even SPARTAN shields are weak, they are gone in one to three plasma shots.
I ma not even going to mention close combat, I can't remember how many times Elites with plasma sword kill me in one hit at full shields...
People are also argumenting that SPARTANS are tough because they can flip over a tank, Astartes can go trough tank with power fist or power axe.

I every other category Astartes are superior,
-They are immortal ( not sure for SPARTANS but I am pretty much sure they aren't since that was never mentioned ).
-They can lose much of their body and still fight on.
-They can fight more terrifying foes and being in more desperate situations and still emerge victorious.
-Some of them can cast psychic powers.
-They can yield more heavily weapons ( while SPARTANS can yield missile launchers I would love to see them yield MBT's cannon and Plasma Cannons ).

It's not fanboyism but reality.
Even if Astartes and SPARTANS are matched in close combat ( even there it's not a fair fight giving what their standard armament are and what kind of weapons can either yield ) in close combat the Astartes are champions ( just put any SPARTAN against Khorne Berzerker or Death Company marine and see how long the SPARTAN will last ). As for everything else Astartes are far better ( SPARTANS do not have their own fighting force, their own vehicles and walkers, their own fleets... ).

But truth be told I love either one of them, they are both protectors and defenders of Mankind even if they are so different from one another,

You're using video games as reference for Spartans.

And Fluff as reference for Astartes.

(That's a triple-facepalm)

If you're not a fanboy (which you evidently must be), then you lack an understanding of logic-based comparison.

Wanna compare Chief to an Astartes in Video Game terms? Grots are far weaker than Grunts. The Astarte in THQ's Space Marine can die to grots.

Wanna compare them fluffwise? Read the books, or you are not a valid source of knowledge and input in this discussion. Saying "I've played Halo" is as much research into Spartan capability as playing a few games of 40k.

That is, not enough.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
It's not my fanboyism, I know that because I played Halo. Even if SPARTANS are on pair when it comes to enchantments ( but I doubt that Chief could survive long under water or in vacuum of space ) I do not believe they have better armor ( Astartes armor can deflect tank shots even if it's weak in joints ) and I am not even going to start on weapons ( Assault Rifle vs. Bolter - you make the call ).
Even SPARTAN shields are weak, they are gone in one to three plasma shots.
I ma not even going to mention close combat, I can't remember how many times Elites with plasma sword kill me in one hit at full shields...
People are also argumenting that SPARTANS are tough because they can flip over a tank, Astartes can go trough tank with power fist or power axe.

Right, so you're basing this purely off playing Halo.

So, you don't know what you're talking about. Go read Fall of Reach and First Strike and get back to me.

Old topic, discussed here over 4 years ago, with 914 current posts. Anything said here has been said there, years ago.

/thread.

RivenSkull wrote:
Old topic, discussed here over 4 years ago, with 914 current posts. Anything said here has been said there, years ago.

/thread.

It's like Forge World topics. It's all been hashed out over and over and over and over. It'll never die.

RivenSkull wrote:
Old topic, discussed here over 4 years ago, with 914 current posts. Anything said here has been said there, years ago.

/thread.

Look ! A guy thats been here not that long and knows how the search function works on Dakka ! MIRACLE.
You could all learn alot from this guy.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:

I every other category Astartes are superior,
-They are immortal ( not sure for SPARTANS but I am pretty much sure they aren't since that was never mentioned ).
-They can lose much of their body and still fight on.
-They can fight more terrifying foes and being in more desperate situations and still emerge victorious.
-They can yield more heavily weapons ( while SPARTANS can yield missile launchers I would love to see them yield MBT's cannon and Plasma Cannons ).

Space Marine's aren't immortal, they live a long time, but eventually get old, senile and weak. (Few ever make it there though. Well Dreadnoughts do, they get senile and lose the plot so they get woken less and less, then replaced).
I think they only fight on because they don't bleed to death and better skilled than say a Guardsman to deal with the pain. Horus was brought close to death because his blood wouldn't coagulate,requiring countless transfusions.
I dunno on the foes thing eh, I liken the flood to the Alien Facehugger. I'd imagine a lot of people, even Space Marines might be creeped out by something trying to hump their face. (I wonder what the resulting Alien would be like from an impregnated Space Marine). 40k's Daemons are probably the only thing a Halo based universe hasn't got an equivalent of.
Heavy weapons, hard to say. It takes 2 guardsmen to carry around a heavy bolter, etc and it has to be placed on a surface to brace it, tripod/low wall, etc. A Space Marine can carry one but requires suspensors to fire it while moving. I would say an Ogryn has the ability to carry one, but fingers to fat to fire one. So a Spartan has the ability to carry any heavy weapon a Space Marine can, but they don't have the integrated power supply attached to their armour for a plasma cannon, etc to be powered by.

Nevertheless, this is clearly a win for the astartes




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nevertheless, this is clearly a win for the astartes

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
Nevertheless, this is clearly a win for the astartes

It's really not that clear cut. Anyone saying it is, is either grossly underestimating Spartans or overestimating Astartes.

 Kaldor wrote:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
Nevertheless, this is clearly a win for the astartes

It's really not that clear cut. Anyone saying it is, is either grossly underestimating Spartans or overestimating Astartes.

After reading all of your replies. I feel like it is definitely a win for the Astartes. Having more and better augmentations and more experience (which helps with martial prowess). Not as apparent as I first thought. It would be an incredible fight,

Even in the Factpile MC VS SM. the sm came out on top, just going on each universes fluff of said soldier.

How the hell is that even a question?

just my fanboy 2 cents, plasma takes out spartan shield, plasma strait out kills space Marines.

also for out of armor lets look at this, space Marine runs at 40+ mph, spartans 60+. therefor spartans have stronger legs, space Marines can stomp each others brains out, so spartans can easily stomp on Marine heads. but why would they only put that much strength on the legs? my money is on spartans being stronger and faster.

 soundwave591 wrote:
j
also for out of armor lets look at this, space Marine runs at 40+ mph, spartans 60+. therefor spartans have stronger legs,

By that logic, all sprinters should be the best at doing squats

 prophet102 wrote:


After reading all of your replies. I feel like it is definitely a win for the Astartes. Having more and better augmentations and more experience (which helps with martial prowess). Not as apparent as I first thought. It would be an incredible fight,

Training is about even. Ok Spartans may have more of it by time they go "active" then a SM will based on training from birth not starting at 8 or 9. which one has "More" or "Better" augmentation is subjective. They have little that over lap, even if they kinda do the same kind of things. SM are stronger, Spartans are faster, which is tougher is debatable. Really like most fighters between well trained folks, it really is a coin toss and not an "auto win" every time.

Hunterindarkness wrote:Training is about even. Ok Spartans may have more of it by time they go "active" then a SM will based on training from birth not starting at 8 or 9.

Marine implementation starts at age 10-14 and finishes at 16-18, actually, at which point they will join the ranks. Before induction, a future recruit may receive training according to local native custom (which is quite likely, given that many Chapters recruit from Feral Worlds). Though I am not sure how that would relate to proper military discipline, I'd expect that the Marine does retain a small benefit from this, even if it is mostly made irrelevant by hypno-indoctrination. Some Chapters also do recruit earlier than 10-14, but you can more or less forget about that for military experience. A Salamanders recruit "proving his worth" as an apprentice blacksmith is of rather dubious relevance to his later battlefield performance. (it could even make him less experienced, as it obviously takes away from the time he might have spent as an adolescent native warrior fighting the local fauna)

If you really want to read up on Marine recruitment, initiation and training, here is an online copy of the Index Astartes article that was published in WD #247.

Likewise, I will point out that you cannot train someone "from birth". Okay, sure, the indoctrination itself would start from a few months on, but I'd say that actual military exercise won't be possible until after a few years of growth. Or am I truly underestimating a toddler's potential as a warrior?

I do wonder why people are trying to frame Spartans as the "small and fast" guy rather than another 7' tall super-strong guy that also happens to have reaction boosters. The Spartan has several muscle boosters implanted and is the same average height as a Marine. Bodies don't function like RPGs and most of our physical "stats" are cross related in some way (with the main difference being between fast and slow muscles). Both Marines and Spartans aren't trained like, say, body-builders or weight lifters who try to over-specialize our muscular systems toward specific ends. They are cross-trained to have good performance regardless of the muscle group in use. So if a Spartan can run as fast or faster than a Marine, we can either assume their training was geared toward making them runners or we can assume that their general strength, fitness and other physical traits are similar to a Marine (I suggest the latter, simply because I don't remember any bits from the Halo books where they specifically trained to be the best sprinters known to man; it was more a knock-on effect of being super-strong).

Without armour on you would be hard pressed to tell which one is a Space Marine and which is a Spartan (though less obvious neural interface would help if they were both buck nekkid).

The fight is not a fight of fast vs. strong. It is a fight of fast/strong/agile vs. fast/strong/agile. The big-slow-dude and small-agile-dude thing is pretty close to being a media-derived stereotype that has more to do with the existence of things like body builders and sprinters who are both overspecialized for a given task than it does to do with fighters and soldiers (I would be hard pressed to define Muhammad Ali as slow because he was a heavyweight boxer or define Bruce Lee as not objectively really freaking strong just because he was a little dude).

A bare-knuckle fight between Astartes and Spartans would be a bone crushing slug-fest of epic proportions with the loser finally going down because his brain has had more than enough of slamming into an nearly unbreakable skull over and over. Without really exacting descriptions of the tensile strength of their bone structures and how much force each of their punches deliver, I am feeling safe in saying that it is a close to 50/50 match. The Marine has some nice tricks like a few backup organs, acid spit and a bit of a healing factor. The Spartan has 300% boosted reaction times that allow him to avoid hits and pick his own punches better.

In armour things get much more complicated and dependent on a wide variety of variables (too many, I'm glad this one went for two of them locked in a room without anything but their own natural augments).

But yeah, given what we know about the baseline physical abilities of both of them, a white-room weaponless brawl will see an even split in wins. Too close to call.

Now where would the human combat forms from Old Man's War fall in to this? Or a Culture SC Agent (probably unfair since most of them contain too many weapons)?

[Edit]

And Spartans are not trained from birth. They were all six years old when they started training. Important clarification. Too lazy to see when they finished training and did their first real mission though. I'll leave that to someone else.

 Ronin_eX wrote:
And Spartans are not trained from birth. They were all six years old when they started training. Important clarification. Too lazy to see when they finished training and did their first real mission though. I'll leave that to someone else.

14, I believe.