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KingDeath wrote: Horus was a fool, and so was the Emprah. The former could have simply burned the planet to crisp ( 30k weaponry is certainly capable of utterly devastating a planet especialy if we consider things like cyclonic torpedos and the like ) while the Carriongod, instead of acting like a braindamaged berserker, could have simply teleported a warhead on Horus now unshielded ship. Of course, epic duels are always preferable to efficiency in 40k and the "military genius" of most characters usualy tends to remain an informed ability.
I think possibly 'a good story' is what you're missing. Yes, the Horus Heresy story could be told by stating the number of men and munitions on each side and then stating who should have won, but that kind of misses the point of a story. Human stories are always more interesting to people than logistics - for the same reason that war movies don't have long scenes detailing every battleplans, strategy and supply train - just the bare minimum so that we can move on with the human story.
Saying 'Hur hur - Horus and the Emperor are idiots - they should have just done this' doesn't help. We know that Horus and the Emperor aren't idiotd, and we know that they didn't or couldn't do what you suggest, so we have to ask what reason there must have been to do something else.
The Emperor could have teleported aboard a warhead, but chose to go himself. We've been told that this was because of love for his son (why he was kinda pulling his punches to start with) or because it was the only way to be sure (Primarchs can survive the void, after all), or because it was the honourable thing to do. All of these make for better human stories than 'and then he blew up the barge - stupid Horus!!'. Besides, Horus could disrupt the teleport beam enough to scatter the Emperor's party throughout the ship - why do you think he wouldn't be able to move a warhead where he wanted?
As for the palace, we've been told the following things in the fluff so far..
- A very well defended world (defence lasers, etc) can kill a fleet that comes too close. - In Flight of the Eisenstien, we see that in order to commit Exterminatus, a spread of ships is required to move into low orbit around the whole world - one virus bomb isn't enough. - Terra and the Palace are the most well-defended place in the Imperium.
It's not difficult to see how, after fighting a massive void war and while under fire, the Traitor fleet cannot move into the correct position for Exterminatus, and that holding a stationary orbit above the Palace for a lance strike would be suicide. Hence, massed landing away from the palace (under fire, a bit like Guilliman's counterassault on Armatura in Betrayer), and then a siege.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/01/03 11:07:48
Quite simply, the traitors had so many hidden agendas that they undermined eachother until Horus's whole plan fell to pieces. I can already think of several things that went wrong and would have contributed to his defeat at Terra. Firstly the Iron hands were meant to turn, Fulgrim assured Horus that he would get Ferrus on the traitors side, by failing to do so Horus lost a whole legion before a shot had been fired. The Night Lords got mauled in the Thramas campaign, effectively losing their whole first company and most of their fleet. Most of the Nightlords took off into fringe space to raid and murder at the orders of Sevatar and very few actually joined the assualt on Terra. The Sons of Horus, Death Guard, Emperors Children and World Eaters lost far more than planned during the Istvaan 3 campaign, losing around a 3rd of their respective strengths. The 1k sons lost almost all of their legion to the fall of Prospero and even more to the subsequent flesh changes that ran rampant following the battle. The Iron Warriors lost huge numbers against the Imperial fists at Phall, then lost even more following Fulgrim on a selfish crusade to attain daemonhood. Kor Phaeron screwed up Calth, failing to kill Gulliman, not crushing the Ultramarines in one blow and losing half of his force when he fled without them. The World Eaters lost huge numbers following Lorgar into the Ultramar crusade, and both the Word Bearers and World Eaters took huge fleet losses at this time. From what we've seen so far only the Alpha's were remotely full strength and they were scattered around the galaxy tying up imperial resources and also fully pursuing their own agenda (it's not even clear if they wanted Horus to win. Not to mention Corax and Vulkan escaped the dropsite massacres, Sanguinius wasnt killed at Signus Prime and a host of other minor details that culminated in the traitors defeat.
Quite simply, the traitors had so many hidden agendas that they undermined eachother until Horus's whole plan fell to pieces. I can already think of several things that went wrong and would have contributed to his defeat at Terra. Firstly the Iron hands were meant to turn, Fulgrim assured Horus that he would get Ferrus on the traitors side, by failing to do so Horus lost a whole legion before a shot had been fired. The Night Lords got mauled in the Thramas campaign, effectively losing their whole first company and most of their fleet. Most of the Nightlords took off into fringe space to raid and murder at the orders of Sevatar and very few actually joined the assualt on Terra. The Sons of Horus, Death Guard, Emperors Children and World Eaters lost far more than planned during the Istvaan 3 campaign, losing around a 3rd of their respective strengths. The 1k sons lost almost all of their legion to the fall of Prospero and even more to the subsequent flesh changes that ran rampant following the battle. The Iron Warriors lost huge numbers against the Imperial fists at Phall, then lost even more following Fulgrim on a selfish crusade to attain daemonhood. Kor Phaeron screwed up Calth, failing to kill Gulliman, not crushing the Ultramarines in one blow and losing half of his force when he fled without them. The World Eaters lost huge numbers following Lorgar into the Ultramar crusade, and both the Word Bearers and World Eaters took huge fleet losses at this time. From what we've seen so far only the Alpha's were remotely full strength and they were scattered around the galaxy tying up imperial resources and also fully pursuing their own agenda (it's not even clear if they wanted Horus to win. Not to mention Corax and Vulkan escaped the dropsite massacres, Sanguinius wasnt killed at Signus Prime and a host of other minor details that culminated in the traitors defeat
.
This could do with a lot of spoilers methinks.
I agree with what you're saying though; Horus' plans were falling short from the start and often unsuccessful altogether. Although, despite this, the Traitors seemed to have the Imperials on the back-foot and some of his plans succeeeded at least partially: such as the Thousand Sons and Space Wolves both being effectively taken out of the picture, the Dark Angels kept from reaching Terra, and the Ultramarines being at least mauled and also kept from Terra. Additionally, it seemed to me like the Traitors were better organised than the loyalists in many cases (as well as not having to deal with the warp), with the Dark Angels situation being a perfect example of this to me:
Spoiler:
As The Night Lords follow the plan and keep the Dark Angels engaged (but further failures emerge within Horus' plans, as the Dark Angels escape, whilst the Night Lords are beaten and fragmented), but Lion El'Jonson is unaware of his brothers situations or greater picture feels he has to deal with Guilliman rather than heading straight for Terra.
My personal opinion is, although the loyalists were kept on the back-foot through-out, there were a lot of cracks that emerged within Horus' plans - as they fell through at some stages - that were truly opened up at the Siege of Terra.
"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of." - Roboute Guilliman
"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now." - Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
Rather than viewing Horus's plans in the sense of a man falling down a hill, I think it's better to view them as a man climbing up a mountain. He set himself an impossible task and came pretty damn near to accomplishing it. He arguably "won" the HH, considering the fethed up state of the Imperium ever since, even if he did not successfully replace the Emperor. I mean, if his goal really was "let the galaxy burn" then mission accomplished. It's been burning for 10,000 years. The fact that he did this in the face of nine brothers who outright opposed him and eight others that more often than not just got in his way is astounding.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/03 15:39:30
People mention how bad the losses of the traitors were but didn't they also practically wipe out 3 legions and the BA's... ravaged by a deamon host i believe (which must have been one of the biggest single deamonic incursions considering single Chapters seem to face deamons alone these days).
So although the traitors must have had big lossess prior to full scale outbreak it seems they had a lot going for them.
Zanderchief wrote: People mention how bad the losses of the traitors were but didn't they also practically wipe out 3 legions and the BA's... ravaged by a deamon host i believe (which must have been one of the biggest single deamonic incursions considering single Chapters seem to face deamons alone these days).
So although the traitors must have had big lossess prior to full scale outbreak it seems they had a lot going for them.
Btw did deamons help them on Terra?
The last question goes without saying. Sanguinius exchanged blows with one of the mightiest Bloodthirsters ever at the gate of the Imperial Palace, and was in quite bad condition when he was to fight Horus due to recently having broken his back. So demons made up the lack the traitors had in manpower (non-Astartes) compared to the loyalists.
If you have nothing nice to say then say frakking nothing.
Even with his brilliant opening move where he destroyed 3 loyal legions, it seems obvious that Horus didn't have the manpower in troops to wage a ballanced war against the loyalists. he had to win fast or risk losing to attrition, so the only option available to him was to take out Terra with what he had to hand before the loyalists could rally sufficient forces to defeat him.
His whole strategy at this point hung on using his smaller force to take the imperial palace quickly, and when he filed to do this due to stubborn defence, and with loyalist forces getting closer he had 2 choices.
Retreat, or try one last gambit to kill the emperor.
He chose the latter with the consequences we all know. It is hard to believe that had Horus had the forces to win a sustained war he would have attacked terra directly, so he must have known that was the only way he could win. So he made one last roll of the dice, and the emperor took the bait because if the emperor HAD known that help was almost there, he would have hung on, and waited for the reinforcements to arrive.
Fenrir Kitsune wrote: At the moment the Emperor teleported onto Horus' ship, Horus should have teleported down to Earth.
The warhead is a good idea though.
When did Girlyman start being the main person coordinating stuff against Horus? don't remember that in any of the old background stuff (dropped out of the HH series a while back, when it became obvious it was going nowhere fast)
Only always, since the Ultras organized the Scouring and rebuilding of the Imperium. Now we're starting to see the events during the Heresy.
Fenrir Kitsune wrote: At the moment the Emperor teleported onto Horus' ship, Horus should have teleported down to Earth.
The warhead is a good idea though.
When did Girlyman start being the main person coordinating stuff against Horus? don't remember that in any of the old background stuff (dropped out of the HH series a while back, when it became obvious it was going nowhere fast)
Only always, since the Ultras organized the Scouring and rebuilding of the Imperium. Now we're starting to see the events during the Heresy.
By always you mean `since the HH series`. Previously, the Scouring was a joint effort of the surviving Primarchs and their Legions, and so was rebuilding the Imperium, though I´d go so far as to call the two nearly synonymous. Resistance to Horus, however, was, and should be, all the Loyalist Legions scattered across the galaxy through Horus´ manipulations realising ´oh crap, the Warmaster has betrayed us and the Emperor. We must make our way to Terra to save daddy posthaste.`
With old fluff then having the Ultramarines, just like everyone else, trying to get there ASAP, but just being too far away and delayed too much by the Word Bearers and Alpha Legion to make the difference, while the combined forces of Dark Angels and Space Wolves were able to smash through everything just in time to force Horus into his final gambit.
Although which Legions actually arrived to force Horus´ hand is I suppose fairly immaterial, that´s the way it´s been since at least 2nd edition, and I can think of absolutely no effing reason whatsoever to change it for the HH series, aside from GW's continued hard-on for the Ultramarines.
Edit: grammar
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/03 22:15:57
A joint effort, with the Ultramarines primarch as the first High Lord of Terra dictating the organization and disposition of the Imperium's entire military.
That was after the Scouring, though, and *definitely* after the "everybody rush to Terra to save everything" bit.
And I don't recall it being said anywhere that Guilliman was ever a High Lord, nor any of the other Pirmarchs.
Though given the way things are going I can see it happening that he was the first, and said to his brothers: I have this piece of paper now that says I'm your boss so you have to do what I say, nya nya.
OK. Point conceded. That's one of 2 2e codices I don't yet possess.
[nitpick mode]It does, however, say "one of"; *not* the only one, and not the first. I'd imagine that when the new government structure was decided, all those granted a seat on the council became High Lord at the same time.[/nitpick]
Still, the point that this was after the Scouring still stands (unless the Codex states that the loyalist sat down after the siege for a nice little chat to determine who controlled what instead of securing their victory and keeping the defeated trators on the run.
All the Primarchs were consummate military leaders; I very much doubt they'd let the traitor legions have a chance to regroup.
Then again, BL's way of writing about intellgent and skilled people is to keep saying "yeah, he's so skilled at x and intelligent and supersmart" ad infinitum while the protagonist's actions keep giving them the lie.
Yes, you're definitely right about that. There were High Lords before Guilliman. The distinction, I guess, is that there weren't Lord Commanders of the Imperium before him as ... well, the Emperor was around. Guilliman didn't fill the Emperor's role mind (see the Moirae Schism thread for more on that ... sigh, much much more) but it was a novel thing. Guilliman's title was not "Warmaster" -- it's important to note that his position after the Heresy was entirely new. And what I really love about Guilliman is that he put it down and backed off. Can you imagine Horus saying, "okay Father, the Great Crusade is done, now I am no longer Warmaster." It's exactly because Horus couldn't say such a thing that he betrayed the Emperor. So Guilliman is super smart and all but his best quality IMO is this kind of honor where he could basically be the most powerful man in the Imperium and then voluntarily walk away from it.
Manchu wrote: Rather than viewing Horus's plans in the sense of a man falling down a hill, I think it's better to view them as a man climbing up a mountain. He set himself an impossible task and came pretty damn near to accomplishing it. He arguably "won" the HH, considering the fethed up state of the Imperium ever since, even if he did not successfully replace the Emperor. I mean, if his goal really was "let the galaxy burn" then mission accomplished. It's been burning for 10,000 years. The fact that he did this in the face of nine brothers who outright opposed him and eight others that more often than not just got in his way is astounding.
We also should keep in mind that no matter what, siding with Chaos in the 40K Galaxy is something that automatically puts you in the 'lose' category - right from the start!
There is no 'gray area' when it comes to Chaos - when you sign up, you lose...just about everything.
'Chaos' in 40K really has to be viewed as a barely controllable infection, because once you 'know' anything about it, I can't believe anyone would willingly embrace it.
Of course, part of the problem is the whole 'knowing' anything issue...
Horus had a goal and pretty well achieved it. Whether that was good for him ... well, he sure looks like the loser in this case, being dead and all. But he accomplished a good deal of what he set out to do. The issue comes up: did he really want to be "the New Emperor" or did he really just want the galaxy to burn? Maybe that's how he conceived of himself: presiding over an eternity of war. He would then truly be "the Warmaster." So he did succeed in bringing about 10,000 years of continuous war but he sure isn't presiding over it. It seems funny that Horus just died. What happened to his soul? If anyone deserves Daemon princehood it should be him right? Like I said, he sure looks like the loser in this case. But put that into context: it's not like there were any winners.
"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of." - Roboute Guilliman
"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now." - Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
Just Dave wrote: IIRC The Emperor destroyed his soul. And body...
Yeah Horus allowed Empy to destroy him utterly with that attack. If memory serves I think I remember something along the lines of Horus reverting to Empy's favorite son as Empy used the last attack to destroy him. Of course I might just as well be confusing this with Conan the Barbarian. Also the clones of Horus was destroyed by Abbaddon the Despoiler later on.
If you have nothing nice to say then say frakking nothing.
No, the body was not destroyed until later. The Black Legion had it in a temple but The Emperor's Children stole it and Fabius Bile made Horus clones. The Black Legion responded by soundly spanking the Emp's Kids, killing the clones, and destroying their Primarch's body.
Just Dave wrote: IIRC The Emperor destroyed his soul. And body...
Yeah Horus allowed Empy to destroy him utterly with that attack. If memory serves I think I remember something along the lines of Horus reverting to Empy's favorite son as Empy used the last attack to destroy him. Of course I might just as well be confusing this with Conan the Barbarian. Also the clones of Horus was destroyed by Abbaddon the Despoiler later on.
That's the old version - I hope they keep it!
Horus was winning, and maybe was momentarily stunned by an attack, suddenly realized what he had done, the mistakes he had made, and then allowed the Emperor to kill him.
The Emperor took it that next step further and additionally totally eradicated his presence on all planes of existence too, or some such.
His body, curiously, was not destroyed in all of that and was eventually cloned by the Emperor's Children (Fabius, was that you?).
Abbaddon eventually reclaimed the body and destroyed that, given that he went all pissy and claimed that Horus was a failure, blah blah blah.
First Horus evaporated a Guardsman or Custodian (depending on who you ask) by looking harshly at the fellow. Then Empy went nuts, and Horus went on his back faster than McNeely vs Mike Tyson.
Then Horus started to regret his actions just as Empy was killing him. His soul was then utterly destroyed.
And after that for comical reasons as far as I'm concerned the Imperials did nothing but emote over the dying Emperor and nothing about the dead body of Horus the Arch-Traitor. Eventually the Emperor's Children got hold of him and made an army of clones. And now we turn over to Arnold Swartznegger talking about cloanes. Casting him as the role as Horus.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/04 16:23:14
If you have nothing nice to say then say frakking nothing.
Manchu wrote: Yes, you're definitely right about that. There were High Lords before Guilliman. The distinction, I guess, is that there weren't Lord Commanders of the Imperium before him as ... well, the Emperor was around. Guilliman didn't fill the Emperor's role mind (see the Moirae Schism thread for more on that ... sigh, much much more) but it was a novel thing. Guilliman's title was not "Warmaster" -- it's important to note that his position after the Heresy was entirely new. And what I really love about Guilliman is that he put it down and backed off. Can you imagine Horus saying, "okay Father, the Great Crusade is done, now I am no longer Warmaster." It's exactly because Horus couldn't say such a thing that he betrayed the Emperor. So Guilliman is super smart and all but his best quality IMO is this kind of honor where he could basically be the most powerful man in the Imperium and then voluntarily walk away from it.
Yeah. As much as I don't like Guilliman, I do have to respect him for that.
Actually, I don't really dislike him all that much.
I dislike how he's portrayed, and I dislike even more how GW's hardon for the Ultramarines has them slowly stealing all the other Legions' and Primarchs' thunder.
Basically, the Word Bearers failed to defeat the Ultramarines at Calth. The Night Lords failed to bog down the Dark Angels in the Thrasmas Crusade. The Alpha Legion failed to stop the Space Wolves. All 3 legions were inbound for Terra and the Siege was taking too long for Horus to take the Palace before these reinforcements arrived. He let down the shields on his Battle Barge to lure the Emperor to him, knowing forcing a final confrontation was his only chance of victory by that point.
There was some plot induced stupidity yes, such as teleporting down to earth then blowing up his ship. But one could argue Horus wanted to confront the Emperor and crush him personally.
Zanderchief wrote:But weren't the UM's battered at Calth? Who was actually at Terra, in numbers, for the Loyalists during this time?
Calth didn't exist when the fluff was originally written.
DarthMarko wrote:UM weren't on route to Terra, only two legions (SW and the DA), but since BL is rewritting everything, Guiliman will battle Horus in the end....
This is 100% wrong.
The Ultramarines have always been one of the Chapters that was on the way to Terra, along with the Space Wolves and Dark Angels. This is supported by nearly every piece of fluff that has ever existed about the heresy dating back to when it was originally fleshed out. I fact, the only source that anyone has located that mentions the Space Wolves and Dark Angels, but leaves out the Ultramarines (and it doesn't specifically exclude them, it just doesn't mention them by name) is a single sentence in a single issue of White Dwarf.
Every other source that makes a mention of loyalist reinforcements by name includes the Ultramarines.
The important thing for people to understand is that we're not getting "new" information in this novel series. The Black Library is literally rewriting the story from scratch. When stuff with the new fluff conflicts with the old, it is because the Black Library doesn't care. You can't pick and choose sources from the past and use them with sources from the present. There are events in the current novels that so ridiculously conflict with old fluff it's funny. So just take the books as they are. What you know about the Heresy from old fluff is irrelevant to these novels. You can suppose or guess all you want.
Horus's reasons for dropping the shields, according to the original fluff, was always described in two ways.
1: "Nobody knows why". In all of the old Chaos Codex army books. Literally, more or less in that exact language. Suggestions that it was a mistake, suggestions that he was baiting the Emprah, suggestions that he had a stroke of regret even.
2: "Reinforcements were on the way". In a lot of the other fluff, such as the codex books of other armies, and the Index Astartes articles. It has always been the Space Wolves, Dark Angles, and Ultramarines. Always those three, never excluding them. The Black Library didn't add the Ultramarines. Mat Ward didn't add the Ultramarines. All those guys who created the game, Priestley, Jervis, etc. They wrote the original Heresy story.
However, it's irrelevant what happened in the original story. Again for example, the Battle of Calth didn't exist in the original story. The Ultramarines had just been so successful in war that they had been on the far edge of the galaxy doing their thing and didn't make it to Terra in time. When the Battle of Calth was originally written, it wasn't that big of a deal. Angry Word Bearers attack Calth, poison its sun, and get driven off by reinforcements from Macragge. But now, in this modern retelling, Calth was a major blow to the Ultramarines. That's the version in the new story. It's completely different from the old story. So if you can't reconcile the fluff with the Ultramarines and Word Bearers, obviously trying to reconcile the old fluff about the Battle of Terra is going to be impossible since it hasn't been written yet.
Edited by Manchu.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/04 17:49:31
Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?
ArbitorIan wrote: That leaves the Alpha Legion and Night Lords (both at full strength but whose 'loyalty' to Horus & Chaos is pretty questionable) and the Iron Warriors (who were just betrayed by Fulgrim and have no love of Chaos anyway).
Didn't the entire Night Lords legion head to galactic east to...massacre everyone?
Or have I missed something?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/04 19:05:13
Defeating the 2nd biggest legion
Creating a 2nd empire (just in case)
Whilst also on the way to Terra (probably with a fully written codex astartes and plans for rebuilding already Xerox'd to hand out)
This is not an attack on Gman more of a "how much stuff does BL want this guy to be doing???"
Mind you GW suck at numbers (Chapter sizes for instance), timings (Horus suddenly getting a Chaos boner after one incident) and keep a track of what it writes down.
The Unremembered Empire thing is what really has me interested. When did this happen, you know? How long did this go on? Plus, I guess Guilliman and Sanguinius are going to throw down in the book. Should be fun. The ancient battle of red versus blue.
Fluff for the Fluff God! 
