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 Sidstyler wrote:
Not sure I like the 'stache, really.

It's still not something I care to own, but I think the shaved head + moustache looks quite interesting. It certainly makes him stand out as a special character.

Oh please, at least you weren't frozen today!

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
This kickstarter is in many ways different from others. Most of the other KS did show us no, few or limited game rules. i.e. the nature of the games limited them to not as many pages for the core rules as the usual TT has. And this is a full-blown

The problem i see: how else can you transfer that much information without loosing the interest of of the gamers and don´t be mistaken, gamers are a fickle crowd that goes for the TT of the week if it is shiny and new. I`ve wittnessed this much too often.

So, starting the info-campaign earlier might have been possible, but if you do not have anything at stake you normally don´t care as much. But if you invest money into something you much more care that it turns out positive. There might be some mistakes in this campaign. But since it is the first of its kind (a full-blown gaming universe and TT) there had to be some mistakes.

Also: We do have 2 months to go and in my opinion there is no need to break records, it just needs to reach its goal. Suddenly there seems to be a competition going on on KS to be the next one KS that sets the bar higher. I don´t see the need for this. So, if we somehow hit the 300.000 or just a little more that wil kickstart the engine of this company. And from what I know it has everything in it to run from then on without too many problems.

What many don´t see: DSC has made its homwork in the not so shiny areas of gaming, that is thorrough financial plans, logistics and core game structure. Problem is: that´s hard to sell. Tentacle Bento might have been quite successfull, but to be honest the game is absolutly boring and only shines through its graphics and theme. Maybe we sometimes let us too much be fooled by shiny things.

But Duncan, its the shiny things that sell games. I play Miniature wargames, without the miniatures I personally won't play the game, and I'm not alone in this. If all you are looking for is a concept of something cool, I can probably sell you a bridge from London?

Duncan - are you an 'official' member of this team?

And by that I mean more than any of us are who choose to back this thing and get to 'have a hand in it'?

A

Well, Kicktraq changed their projections to reflect the previous day in pledges.

By the pledges this is currently getting, it will not get there. Fact.

Kicktraq's trending 323.000 GDP, somewhat over the goal. But it obviously includes the first few days and has been falling since. I expect it to fall below the goal tomorrow or the day after tomorrow.

Yes, I know that many, if not most Kickstarters get a "final days rally". But that is where the problem is. Those final-days rallies are an expression of the cascade of an ever-better-deal fueled by Stretch-goals and the "entertainment" of being glued to the screen, figuring out what the next "stretch-goal" might be.

Without a stretch-goal in sight, except for the final days, and with stretch goals being rather abstract, rather than "OMG! OMG! OMG! What could it be?", it will (in my humble opinion) not get that final-days-rally.


More of my thoughts on this in my sig.

And no, I don't want this project to fail. Yes, I am a backer. Thus, I am worried because I believe it will fail, not because I want it too.

Nope, not a member of this team, but after over a decade in the gaming business as a freelancer that has worked for quite some of the small, middle and big companies I simply do my homework.

Sadly still way enough TT companies are still gamers/artists and do not pay as much attenttion to the business side. So I am quite happy when I discover a company that gets the not so shiny parts right. This will allow them to be around quite longer.

And to be honest, I do have my doubts that some of the more successful KS will be as positive for the companies involved as they intended. For several reasons I will not give any names, but anyone who has some production background and knows the numbers normally involved can do the math. That does not mean that I think the KS product will not be delievered, but it might hurt those companies in a way they did not expect.

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:


And to be honest, I do have my doubts that some of the more successful KS will be as positive for the companies involved as they intended. For several reasons I will not give any names, but anyone who has some production background and knows the numbers normally involved can do the math. That does not mean that I think the KS product will not be delievered, but it might hurt those companies in a way they did not expect.

That sounds like a good quality to have, if you're offering your "backers" equity in your company or a solid annual ROI

Seems largely irrelevant if you are offering your "backers" shiny products in return for their pledge.

For a company that wants to convince "investors" with sound accounting, rather than "shiny-toys", Kickstarter.com seems an odd place to go instead of .. for example., www.rbs.co.uk or www.hsbc.co.uk/

For all the business smarts you see in them, they might've simply picked the wrong place to pitch their project based on their own internal SWOT-analysis or whatever.

mustache is not doing it for me, neither are the butt plates. I would rather see him with a huge grizzly Adams beard and a mohawk.

Oh I love the Sam Elliott and Wyatt Earp mustache.

He looks like a badass space cowboy/veteran.

With the latest update, all I can see is Wilford Brimley.

Cannot unsee the diabetes.

And PLEASE tell me those round pads aren't the final armour on his rear end...

The mustache is nice!

I like the direction Hansa is going in, love the moustache, do not love the round buttplates. ^^ But Kev can and likely will change those.

All in all, the prospect of influencing the project leave me quite cold, I play what I like and there is no lack of choice nowadays. And in case I wanted a certain ruleset, I´d do it myself. But I am lazy and as I said there are soooo many good rules out there, I don´t care. So I am in the boat of give me more miniature goodness or the like, the project being closer to the real intent of kickstarter or not.

Round buttplates are bad. I'm really not sure why they were thinking watching this miniature develop would bring in the pledges. It's very niche and has elements that can easily turn people off.

So... does this mean he's a Spaceball? Cause those buttplates tell me he is.

agustin wrote:
Round buttplates are bad. I'm really not sure why they were thinking watching this miniature develop would bring in the pledges. It's very niche and has elements that can easily turn people off.

Well, the cynical part of me wonders if it isn't because they really don't have anything else to show us at the moment so they're forced to feed us one miniature drip by drip so as to distract us with the 'oooh shiny' part.

Sining wrote:

agustin wrote:
Round buttplates are bad. I'm really not sure why they were thinking watching this miniature develop would bring in the pledges. It's very niche and has elements that can easily turn people off.

Well, the cynical part of me wonders if it isn't because they really don't have anything else to show us at the moment so they're forced to feed us one miniature drip by drip so as to distract us with the 'oooh shiny' part.

According to Rick they really did not have anything to show us other than the concept art you see. He has just now got a loan to begin getting stuff together to show us, I trust in his vision, however, Hansa is kind of proof that they are not taking player feedback seriously. Most player feedback I saw he was leaning toward being a Han Solo/Malcolm Reynolds kind of smaller yet smarter and more cunning than brawny mix, yet he is turning into a Arnold Schwarzenegger/Wyatt Earp mix. I am going to keep my feeder pledge locked in however if they do not get more concept art and gameplay videos + provide proof of player feedback making a difference I am going to pull my pledge.

They need a loan to get a few bits of concept art done?

You'd think they'd have a few hundred quid in the kitty to get some concepts done, that's all that's really needed... if they're having to borrow money to make progress on something as dirt cheap as concepts then that's a bit sad. :(

For £100 I could happily knock out concept sketches for an entire faction in the space of a day. It's just pencil + paper, not rocket science.

Freelance illustrators are not that expensive and can get an insane amount of work done in a single day if given a strong brief.

Surprised they didn't get an illustrator on day 1 as soon as people started asking for more concepts of the minis. We could be looking at a complete rough set of concept art for all the minis in all the factions at this point, for backers to get excited about and discuss.

primalexile wrote:


According to Rick they really did not have anything to show us other than the concept art you see. He has just now got a loan to begin getting stuff together to show us,

Which is kinda odd in itself.

These guys, after all, aren't 18-year-olds starting up in dad's basement. Most of them are in some way involved in professional miniature companies out there. The entire branding - e.g. the videos, logos, graphics, website, etc.. - is all spotless and finished to a high polish. Allegedly, a whole team of seasoned pro's has been working on this for half a year or so (if without pay). And yet, there are no sculpts, while every "give-me-2000-dollar-for-my-niche-mini-indiegogo" ever has no issue coughing up a handful of WIP-sculpts?

primalexile wrote:

Sining wrote:

agustin wrote:
Round buttplates are bad. I'm really not sure why they were thinking watching this miniature develop would bring in the pledges. It's very niche and has elements that can easily turn people off.

Well, the cynical part of me wonders if it isn't because they really don't have anything else to show us at the moment so they're forced to feed us one miniature drip by drip so as to distract us with the 'oooh shiny' part.

According to Rick they really did not have anything to show us other than the concept art you see. He has just now got a loan to begin getting stuff together to show us, I trust in his vision, however, Hansa is kind of proof that they are not taking player feedback seriously. Most player feedback I saw he was leaning toward being a Han Solo/Malcolm Reynolds kind of smaller yet smarter and more cunning than brawny mix, yet he is turning into a Arnold Schwarzenegger/Wyatt Earp mix. I am going to keep my feeder pledge locked in however if they do not get more concept art and gameplay videos + provide proof of player feedback making a difference I am going to pull my pledge.

Isn't he partnered with an established company? I would imagine that if they were so confident in his vision, they would have fronted the money for some concept art/miniatures

As it is, I'm not sure he should get the loan since I'm not sure he would actually be able to fund the project

 Zweischneid wrote:

primalexile wrote:


According to Rick they really did not have anything to show us other than the concept art you see. He has just now got a loan to begin getting stuff together to show us,

Which is kinda odd in itself.

These guys, after all, aren't 18-year-olds starting up in dad's basement. Most of them are in some way involved in professional miniature companies out there. The entire branding - e.g. the videos, logos, graphics, website, etc.. - is all spotless and finished to a high polish. Allegedly, a whole team of seasoned pro's has been working on this for half a year or so (if without pay). And yet, there are no sculpts, while every "give-me-2000-dollar-for-my-niche-mini-indiegogo" ever has no issue coughing up a handful of WIP-sculpts?

This, your earlier comments, and your blog (linked in sig) are all spot-on. If they had spent half of the time and effort put into the website on just a handful of greens, I really think things would be going much better. As it is, I see this project plateauing, quite a distance from the goal. I would like to be proven wrong, since I would love to see a viable 40K alternative (that isn't Privateer Press, which is fine, I just don't like their design sensibility), but I am not going to bet money that it will.

Hopefully this won't be a fatal mistake for Priestley's efforts, but a lesson learned. Perhaps he and his team can come back with a more cohesive and developed (in-progress) product for a proper Kickstarter soon.

 scarletsquig wrote:
They need a loan to get a few bits of concept art done?
.

The central premise of the KS, and one that people keep missing, is that it is feedback-dependent. Hansa has been designed with feedback concerning what people want to see, at each stage of his sculpting for instance.

That being said, it might have made sense to have had a couple of mock-concept art and miniature greens made up in advance (perhaps 3 or 4 variations on a theme?) which then people could vote on.

I'm seriously considering putting a substantial amount on this. I believe strongly that if this KS succeeds, then it will give the whole industry the kick in the bum that it might well need if it is going to continue to prosper into the future. And, well a lot of my time is spent with the wargaming hobby - I guess I should put my money where my mouth is, so to speak.

 Pacific wrote:


The central premise of the KS, and one that people keep missing, is that it is feedback-dependent. Hansa has been designed with feedback concerning what people want to see, at each stage of his sculpting for instance.

No.

People are not missing the central premise of this KS.

People are pointing out that this central premise is setting the KS up for failure.

People are pointing this out, because they generally sympathize with the goals/ambitions of this KS as much as you do and do not want it to fail.

Lol, those butt-plates are funny, lets hope its not done at that end! I love the mustach, I do hope he is bald, but it sounds like they'll be adding hair. I hope they add detail to the base, I love it when they have something to the base, a dead alien head maybe...

I can't hep but compare BGoA to Rivet Wars Kickstarter. I know they are really different games but the Rivet Wars has been taking in 19k a day on average, and the only sculpts seen were the ones in the game play video from the box. The rest of the stretch goals are in cartoony art drawings. BGoA would benefit greatly from some kind of visual goal for some of the factions. If they end up looking different in the end from fan feedback well and good. At least we know there was a vision everyone could share.

Rivet wars was pretty much "done" when before the kick starter launched. As I believe the game play video was up on the second day or so they already had the game pieces, cards and board.. In addition to that the first few stretch goals were more of the same figures added to the pledges. I'm not bashing rivet wars at all since it is on my list to back on kick starter just that the only thing both kick starters have in common is that they run the same time more or less.

If the kick starter fails I hope that Rick tries again maybe with limited factions aim for the book and a few miniatures. With the stretch goals being other forces or more models.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 Pacific wrote:


The central premise of the KS, and one that people keep missing, is that it is feedback-dependent. Hansa has been designed with feedback concerning what people want to see, at each stage of his sculpting for instance.

No.

People are not missing the central premise of this KS.

People are pointing out that this central premise is setting the KS up for failure.

People are pointing this out, because they generally sympathize with the goals/ambitions of this KS as much as you do and do not want it to fail.

You say that, but look back over this thread and you will see an awful lot of 'why didn't this KS start with a range of concept drawings and miniatures already completed?' Which is to miss the object of what this project was trying to accomplish.

The benefit of hindsight will show whether this was a good idea or not, or Rick and the other guys should have done more of the development/fan input bits and pieces prior to the kickstarter taking place.

 Pacific wrote:

 scarletsquig wrote:
They need a loan to get a few bits of concept art done?
.

The central premise of the KS, and one that people keep missing, is that it is feedback-dependent. Hansa has been designed with feedback concerning what people want to see, at each stage of his sculpting for instance.

Game design and miniature design by committee are bad ideas, particularly from the ground up. You disenfranchise some people who don't like the direction, and don't think they're being heard, or a vocal minority drive the ship (wargames factory greatcoats, I'm looking at you).

They need more greens and concepts, and more of the rules fleshed out for people to respond to. I feel like they're dropping the ball in that regard.

When I first saw this this thread (and linked website) before the KS went live I was really excited about the idea. I still love the concept and really like the Hansa model, I have about £250 ready to drop on the double feeder set, but the reason I have not and I am sure it is similar for a lot of people is as follows -

I have three kids, not the cheapest of things at the best of times, and run most of my 'little men' purchases as the missus calls them past her. I get the usual complaining and eye rolling every time I go into GW as she knows I will usually buy something. I managed to convince her to let me spend about £250 on SW as I could actually show her the figures, what the boxed game looks like and the concept sketches. basically she could see I was going to get (I think) value for money and a high quality end product.

Now before everyone starts quoting "this is not that kind of KS...etc...", the problem I have is selling this to the missus, she has asked to see the models and at this stage I can show her only one incomplete figure, ok she said "what are the rest going to look like?"....erm...."humans, possibly cat people, possibly something like planet of the apes"...."so you have no idea" was the reply. "Well the collective gaming community has not decided on the exact details yet" argument did not work either.

I mentioned 3D renderings earlier in this thread and was quoted with the usual snipey comments, I did know that this was not how these sculptors work, but at least I would have something to show the missus and therefore gained permission to back this KS. As others have mentioned, some greens, anything would really have helped. For once I think my missus is right (does not happen often), when she said "Would you be happy if I spent £250 on some clothes, that I have not seen, have not been designed or even properly described, but the dressmaker is a great person and I'm sure it will work out in the end".

I REALLY hope this KS will run, and my £250 is still waiting, but please Rick and the rest of the team, give my missus a reason to say yes beyond a great concept and a good reputation. I think this is where a lot of people are balking at, in these hard economic times putting money into something on faith alone is hard.