Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Creeping Dementia wrote:
My recommendation... Start reading as many tactics articles as you can. Deployment. Movement. Gaining Cover. Ideal Assaulting. Shooting Priority. Playing the Mission. Adaptation and Decision making. There are a ton of aspects to the game that you need to be proficient at before blaming the army.

Excellent advice.

We all start out new at something man. It takes a long time to get good. You also learn more from losing than winning.
This is what I ask myself after any game I play -- especially if I lose.

1) Could I have deployed better?

2) What caused me the biggest problems?

3) What did I do that caused problems to my opponent?

4) How could I have done better on the mission?

5) Did I get sidetracked from the mission?

Break out your smartphone and take pictures of your games. Look at them later and think about them again, and what you did.
I've been playing this game for years. have won more than one tourney. I still ask myself those questions every time I lose. I still take pics and reflect on my games.

Even when you lose, you need to go over the game in your head, point by point, and talk to yourself about how and where you should improve next time. ALWAYS. Even when I win a match, for all of about 5 minutes Im glad I won. Then after that, its back to the same ol grind
Where did I mess up?
How can I improve?
What should I change next time?

Now Im not saying you should pick yourself apart on every single little thing, but these are nice questions to help build your skills up

What model do you like the most? When you ask your friends, do they hate playing against it? Buy lots of that.

And boyz.

And lootaz.

Orks by their very nature are spammy creatures. They find something they like and get a lot of it. Do the same.

Also, don't over-analyze your strategy. If you're having a hard time making a decision, just do what an ork would do and it either turns out good or ends up hilarious. For example: recent apocalypse game, I shot my shokk attack gun dangerously close to my stompa that only had 1 structure point left. I rolled "Oops!" and my opponent instead centered it on my Stompa. The scatter put it back on the models I needed dead. Gork and Mork favored my brashness and they will favor yours too!

I'd make sure to debrief after each game, asking my opponent what they think I did wrong, what I could have done to stop particular attacks from affecting me, etc...
A good player, and friend for that matter should be happy to help you get better. If they wont, I'd find new playing partners since they obviously just want to win, and not help.

If you face monstrous creatures with high toughness bring poisoned weapons. Orks don't have many but they do have them. Pain boys wound on 4+ regardless of toughness.

Just going over your games, i think it probably would have been better to focus your lootas on his hive guard. They are basically the nid's lootas, just fewer but stronger shots. However, if i remember their stats right, a good blasting with lootas should be good enough to take out most of the teeth of hive guard, seeing as they only come in threes. Every loss hurts a whole lot.

EDIT: also, remember that flying monstrous creatures can be grounded by small arms fire. Force it to ground with mass shoota fire at first, then chew it up with pks, or moore accurate loota shooting. Also remember to double assault them with boyz squads or single with nobz or manz. You can't let your pk get challenged, so bring more than one!

CYBORK wrote:
If you face monstrous creatures with high toughness bring poisoned weapons. Orks don't have many but they do have them. Pain boys wound on 4+ regardless of toughness.

Painboyz would be the only place we get them. And normal boyz kill MC just fine


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think short of detailed battle reports, or actually witnessing it via youtube, we honestly cant help you much farther then what has been posted. Just saying you lost badly doesnt really help us help you

 KingCracker wrote:

CYBORK wrote:
If you face monstrous creatures with high toughness bring poisoned weapons. Orks don't have many but they do have them. Pain boys wound on 4+ regardless of toughness.

Painboyz would be the only place we get them. And normal boyz kill MC just fine


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think short of detailed battle reports, or actually witnessing it via youtube, we honestly cant help you much farther then what has been posted. Just saying you lost badly doesnt really help us help you

Well... there is *pause* THE GROT PROD!!! *lightning & thunder*
Except... why would you?

Their are a lot of ork armylists that got a little bit of everything but the truth is:

1: footslogging doesnt cut it anymore because their are better rapid fire weapons , overwatch and a lousy assault range when charging true terrain.
2: Battlewagons are better then trukks but 1 will not cut it...get 3!
2: loota's are your best units...get them!!
3: shootaboyz are better then sluggaboyz.
4: Nobbikers cannot use their wound allocation trick anymore so are not that good. a few of them (with boss) dont cut it and a big unit gets to expensive.

My kind of list:

Mek with KFF and powerclaw
warboss with mega armour etc..

10 gretchins with runtherd
10 gretchins with runtherd
20 shootaboyz with Powerclaw Nob and 2 big shoota's
17 shootaboyz with Powerclaw Nob
20 shootaboyz with Powerclaw Nob and 2 big shoota's

10 loota's
10 loota's
10 loota's

battleweagon with rpj, extra armour, 2 big shoota's and deffrolla
battleweagon with rpj, extra armour, 2 big shoota's and deffrolla
battleweagon with rpj, extra armour, 2 big shoota's and deffrolla

defence line

about 1700 points.

loota's go behind defence line and mek with warboss go in (middle) Battlewagon with 17 shootaboyz. 3 battlewagons with KFF protection go flat out first turn (18 inch) and possible assault turn 2..

quote (Painboyz would be the only place we get them. And normal boyz kill MC just fine)

I was talking about his T8/T9 problem where boyz can't do anything.

Is there a T9 beasty in the game (outside of FW/APOC..not sure about them right now) ?

Only T 8 left that i recall is the Wraithlord.

This is what I ask myself after any game I play -- especially if I lose.

1) Could I have deployed better?

2) What caused me the biggest problems?

3) What did I do that caused problems to my opponent?

4) How could I have done better on the mission?

5) Did I get sidetracked from the mission?

This. After EVERY game, we always sit around and discuss what each of us did well/poorly. My opponents say things like "geeze that lootaz unit WRECKED my blah... but what were you doing with that shoota unit over there? They did nothing all game!"
Constructive criticism is a key point to becoming better at this game; it’s taken me nearly 2 years of lurking on these forums and learning about mathhammer, target priority, target saturation, cover, deployment, tactics, strategy, rules, codices and other important aspects of the game.
To paint it a little differently:
Since the thread started, you've approached the advise with an open mind and made some worthwhile changes, and from what I can tell you have played 2 games and came very close to winning 1 - that sounds like you've started travelling down the right path.
Read the other codices and learn what their army can and cannot do. Talk to people at your FLGS and watch some battles while you paint. Read battle reports posted here. Play more games.

Most of all have fun. There isn't a player on this site that still doesn't get their rear-end handed to them on a plate from time to time. It's what you can take away from the battle that will help you in the next one.

I'd say lootas are the main fear for my opponents. The few games i got where i wasnt relying on them they were like WOOOO. Im still scratchbuilding more of them, im up to 14 atm im still proxying with big shootas lol.

Against Nids i felt like what i needed to do was ditch the trukks, max out my boyz and lootas, and just sit there going "Come at me bro" since i usually have better range than he does. Not my style though, i think that then i dont do it cuz i seriously want to charge forward even if its a bad idea lol.
That first game was Purge the Aliens - it quickly made me not like trukks cuz that was 5 EASY points for him since trukks are usually 1shotted. Against what he brought and what i brought, i'd have to literally wipe him out to win (since points mean nothing if i got EVERYTHING killed).

Question though...if lootas are so powerful how do people bring dakkajets then? getting both is wayyyy too many points, and it seems like dakkajets are just harder to avoid since they basically have table-top range with their movement + guns. I ask cuz i have 3 dakkajets, love the model, cant seem to use them right without having a major flaw in my army (usually strength limitations, since Str6 cant take out much armor or high toughness).

Also on the poison note: Every poison weapon is a Character. Monstrous creatures are still characters, so he just challenges me and i do NOT want that fight as i dont even have enough attacks to kill it let alone survive to my turn. Grot prods would be about it, but if i had a monstrous creature seeing a mass of grots heading for me i'd try my damnest to sidestep that group cuz that would take forever to get out of that tarpit.
Grotsnik: Has a Pklaw so hes I1 and is chaotically insane so i cant control him.
Painboy: Any MC would plaster him before he got a turn.
Runt herder: Tarpit...avoid it NOW! (Granted i think it would work if i actually got them with it).

As for the model i like the most comment: i'd say Meganobz because theyre strong as hell, look awesome, and are hard to take out. Problem is they just dont move lol. The most i'd do in a 1500pt game is 2 groups of 4 split apart enough so i could cover more ground. As i said before my friend keeps trying to have me bring 10 in a BW cuz he thinks theyre nasty as hell - i see that as a kiteable deathstar.

Friday (for me, im in korea so thursday for most in the states) im going to play another game maybe 2. Not sure who im playing since it sounds like a party not a 1on1 match heh. I'll try to keep accurate track of whats going on and get pics so i can give a good battle report. Think im going to try the mass of lootas and shootas with some MANz camping around and just go "come at me bro" this time. EDIT: The reason my flag keeps changing is because if im at work, its an american flag since im military. At home it says korea.

EDIT2: I dont know if theres anything higher than T7 outside FW models, however his Hive Tyrants/Flyrants were using a spell (endurance? forget which) that adds a dice roll more toughness and strength. Think it was a D3 but not 100% sure on that one. It passes long as he doesnt roll higher than 10 on 2D6, then he rolls another to see what it does. Hes usually Str8/T8 instead of Str6/T6, sometimes gets lucky and goes to 9. Thats where my main issue came from, the Tervigons n such i know i can just mob down.

Nids can give my all comers list a problem sometimes one thing I have learned is to send my MANZ at the tervigon if my opponent leaves the opening I have taken them out several times on turn 2. Reason I send them there is the initiative 1 and stopping the free troops they are getting. I plan on losing some but if I get the charge it is usually dead and then my opponent is more worried about the remaining mega nobs than they are my lootas or boys. Flying MC's are a pain for my dakka jet and can take it out but I do try to fire my small arms at them to ground them before I shoot anything big at them and charge em if I have a big enough unit. If the unit nearby is a smaller one I might not charge it as there is a good chance of them getting wiped and I would be better off using them to ground it again in the next turn.

Kremlin wrote:
Read the other codices and learn what their army can and cannot do. Talk to people at your FLGS and watch some battles while you paint. Read battle reports posted here. Play more games.

When a new codex comes out, I make it a point to try and make army lists with it. I think to myself 'were I playing this, what would I do"

Often Illl even proxy a game with my friends. It does not matter is we use 'orks as eldar' or 'blue wolves'. Were testing to see how the new army plays.

Kremlin wrote:
There isn't a player on this site that still doesn't get their rear-end handed to them on a plate from time to time.

If your not gettting you arse handed to you every now and then, change where you play!

One of the biggest problems is getting stuck as 'the biggest fish in the little pond'. If your playing at your FLGS and always winning, you find a new place to play some games.
Check out some of the bigger tournaments like NOVA or the Bay Area Open. You might be really suprised at how much fun to you have and how much better your game gets.

Only reason i havent proxied an entire army with my orks to try another race is i think thatd be confusing as hell lol

Heya Vineheart, I just read through the thread and there's a couple of things that I can add here that have helped to my success with 6th ed Orks.

I had the same problem you're having now and I've gone from a pure mathhammer game to a bit of a shooty game and I owe it to these two units:

1 Big Mek with Shokk Attack Gun (stick him with a squad of 11 or 12 boyz in order to soak up casulties and make sure it's in ruins so that he's got a good field of fire and be sure to leave other units away from them. If you're unlucky enough to roll snake eyes on your STR roll for the shot, there goes everything within 6" of him).

and if you have to do any kind of footslogging across the board:

20 Shoota Boys with 'Eavy Armour (1 with a Big Shoota and 1 Nob with a Big Shoota). This gives them a 4+ save and with Mob Rule, they're fearless. I've taken out entire units on Overwatch with them just because my opponent didn't want them assaulting him on the next turn. Their 'Eavy Armour gets them a decent amount across the board if need be and if an objective is in ruins or some other piece of terrain, so much the better!

Mork and Gork have faith in you! Have faith in them and the glory of the WAAAGH!

Ehh...could give it a try. Im usually against heavy armor because that adds up fast on points and in my experience 4+ is nothing. Majority of weapons pen it anyway.

SAGs are awesome though i'll give ya that.

I'd also say no to orks in eavy armor. The best part of boyz is that they are cheap. Eavy armor gives you very little gain for a lot of cost.

I don't know about the exact math of ork lists, but I can see the utility of 4+ armor orks from a BA perspective. It makes them much more survivable in HTH and cover becomes very good for them, as nearly all "ignores cover" weapons don't pen 4+. The 4+ armor squad would really throw off my target prioritization scheme I use for orks. But if it takes away too many points from the list, I wouldn't do it.

Majority of *heavy* weapons penetrate it, but not regular flamers and small arms. I don't know. Try it and see.

It's a 66% increase in price per boy. Makes them as expensive as firewarriors.

The cost increase isn't so bad if its one unit of truck boyz.

But a unit of 12 ard Boyz is no harder to kill than a unit of 24 regular boyz. Assuming you don't break their armor. And there are plenty of weapons with AP4 out there.

If I were making a unit of Boyz Ard, I would make them 20 strong and riding in a Battlewagon.

If i were against the local necron player i would take some 'ard boyz for the sheer fact he LOVES his tesla guns. He usually has so-so results with them against me, but 6+ rarely saves more than 2-3 out of 10 wounds or more lol. Otherwise no point. Just from my Nob having it i learned theres too many AP4 out there to bother. Now, if AP was it must be betterthan the armor youre piercing, it would be damn good as then only larger weapons would pen that (or the typical 1 per squad weapon). MEQs tend to have a crapton of AP4 so forget that.
I dont even take it on my Meks or non-mega armor warboss because if theres any big weapons out there, pretty sure it can pen 4+ and WILL be aimed at my bosses. Meks are usually screwed if it ever is needed anyway, and i dont think ive ever ran a bikeless or armorless boss before.

 DieselJester wrote:
1 Big Mek with Shokk Attack Gun (stick him with a squad of 11 or 12 boyz in order to soak up casulties and make sure it's in ruins so that he's got a good field of fire and be sure to leave other units away from them. If you're unlucky enough to roll snake eyes on your STR roll for the shot, there goes everything within 6" of him).

its cheaper to add grotz instead of boyz. A lot of people forget to take a ammo runt. You really want that reroll once you got the right strength for the right enemy unit.

Same here, when I have the SAG out, he has a runt everytime. Its always paid for itself.

Aight, i think i found my issue. Its 1500pts.

I tried to piece together a loota camp lineup with some MANz in the middle to provide something scary to vehicles or tougher units that get close. Problem was i couldnt get the list out without cutting my boyz or my lootas (so NO WAY). So we went to 1750, and i ran this:



Went against Space Wolves drop pod army, so i just spread my boyz all over the place with the MANz in the middle so they could reach which side the drops landed that had the bigger threat. 23 Lootas along with the SAGMek and his Gretchin meat shield sat behind the ADL and a trench while the Kannons sat behind/next to that.

Granted, he bought frost axe termies, so my list was a bit favored since i had a turn of free 100+ dice throw at the 2 groups of 5 termies and blasts at the third group of regular marines with kombiflames and a ... ughhh forgot the bosses name he had a very annoying line attack that made you roll initiative tests.

After i took out the termies and most of his third group he called it cuz all he had left was 2 large troop choices footslogging it. Turn 3.

I say i think my problem was mostly 1500 because, thinking back, i always felt like i had a major flaw in every army being either 1) not enough toyz to make that toy worth it or 2) not enough boyz. It was always either my toyz did nothing, or i had no boyz. This list...damn that feels rock solid.
If i didnt want to camp out i could just ditch the kannons and MANz and get some BW for my 20shoota boyz, ditch the third 20man for nobs with klaws, and get 3 dakkajets and another SAG instead of the meganob boss.

Yea, think im going to avoid 1500 if i can. The closest i could get with a list like this was ~1550, which cutting that 50 hurts really really bad.

Thanks for the help guys, and sorry i got heated a few times.

Just remember, if youre wanting nobz with powerklaws, MANz are that but much better saves and cheaper for a PK platform.



But congrats on your win, sometimes you just suffer because of the game size

I wanted the MANz rather than nob pks in my shootas because they always get challenged out anyway, and most things i dont want to fight. MANz arent characters, the warboss is but you really wanna challenge him? lol unless you have hella good rolls or a LOT of hits you arent winning that challenge.

Grats on the win! The Waaagh is Proud of ya!