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@Meangreen

Two simple questions

Do you think the victim could have avoided the situation?
Do you think the victim acted foolish in any way?

MeanGreenStompa wrote:Pictorial evidence of her being unconscious and being abused not enough? Again, the abused is not on trial, the abuser is. We have pictures and lots of witnesses yet, again, some immediately demand further evidence from the victim, not the accused. This isn't the 50s...

I'm just looking for further evidence. I don't care about which "side" it's coming from.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:It is a responsibility of a man to not rape a woman.

Well I guess that's where some people differ. I don't put all my faith in people to act morally.

I guess it all comes down to opinion. Neither you or I will likely change our views on the subject, so no use fighting

There does seem to be a general issue with the idolisation of these school sports teams, it seems to go to the heads of those involved while others feel they need to be given a sizable slab of benefit-of-the-doubt when it comes to sex related allegations. Another thread currently in off topic is about a coach that abused kids, but people seem to come to his defence because he taught a good team. And a few months ago there was a similar story to this one where a girl was assaulted by a member of a sports team and she wasn't unconscious but people had to force their way into the room to stop the assault continuing IIRC. But it's the same stuff again, the girl gets shamed while the boy is protected so the team can keep going. This thing about idolising people in sports teams seems to give some the impression they can get away with anything, or that they have the right to. And then there's a spectacular lack of perspective from those involved with the teams to overlook some rather heinous behaviour so that the sport won't suffer.

 Necroshea wrote:
@Meangreen

Two simple questions

Do you think the victim could have avoided the situation?
Do you think the victim acted foolish in any way?

No and no.

I doubt many rape victims have the chance to avoid 'the situation' or they wouldn't be rape victims.

'Foolish in any way'? You mean, other than staying locked indoors in some sterile bunker? Don't be silly. Kids go out and get smashed. They don't deserve bad things happening to them, you seem to be continually insinuating that 'this sort of thing will happen if girls get drunk' and that's not the case, it's far more likely 'this sort of thing will happen if we continually justify it as something that happens to drunk girls as a punishment for being drunk and not something committed by poorly raised thugs who should be subject to the terrifying and draconian punishments of the law'.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mattman154 wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:It is a responsibility of a man to not rape a woman.

Well I guess that's where some people differ. I don't put all my faith in people to act morally.

I guess it all comes down to opinion. Neither you or I will likely change our views on the subject, so no use fighting

You ever cross the road on foot? Hope you don't get hit by a drunk driver, because, you know, you should have avoided crossing the road on foot and traveled a mile up the road to the bridge...

 Cheesecat wrote:
When is it okay to have sex with drunk people like if they only have a few drinks is it OK? What if they're a little woozy? Obviously fething a an unconscious person on the floor is a no-no.

I know in many states, Its considered rape if they are drunk.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
You ever cross the road on foot? Hope you don't get hit by a drunk driver, because, you know, you should have avoided crossing the road on foot and traveled a mile up the road to the bridge...

Is there a crosswalk where I'm crossing? If not I probably shouldn't be crossing there especially if there's a bridge to cross over.

And if I did get hit by a drunk driver and not killed, I hope I maintain my rationality and realize that while he committed a crime by driving drunk, I was being foolish by crossing at that particular spot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also please don't think I'm arguing that she deserved it. Nobody deserves something like that to happen.

I am arguing for personal responsibility and accountability.

Mattman154 wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
You ever cross the road on foot? Hope you don't get hit by a drunk driver, because, you know, you should have avoided crossing the road on foot and traveled a mile up the road to the bridge...

Is there a crosswalk where I'm crossing? If not I probably shouldn't be crossing there especially if there's a bridge to cross over.

And if I did get hit by a drunk driver and not killed, I hope I maintain my rationality and realize that while he committed a crime by driving drunk, I was being foolish by crossing at that particular spot.

Well then my answer is simple, the vast, vast majority of humanity, including this little girl, do not live to your dizzying standards and if you ascribe that level of fastidiousness to the rest of us in the expectation of following suite, you're going to live a very safe and long life in abject disappointment...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mattman154 wrote:

I am arguing for personal responsibility and accountability.

Pssst, your expectations are set ridiculously high...

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Mattman154 wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
You ever cross the road on foot? Hope you don't get hit by a drunk driver, because, you know, you should have avoided crossing the road on foot and traveled a mile up the road to the bridge...

Is there a crosswalk where I'm crossing? If not I probably shouldn't be crossing there especially if there's a bridge to cross over.

And if I did get hit by a drunk driver and not killed, I hope I maintain my rationality and realize that while he committed a crime by driving drunk, I was being foolish by crossing at that particular spot.

Well then my answer is simple, the vast, vast majority of humanity, including this little girl, do not live to your dizzying standards and if you ascribe that level of fastidiousness to the rest of us in the expectation of following suite, you're going to live a very safe and long life in abject disappointment...

Eh, if I know a neighborhood is dangerous and notorious for crime, I will avoid that neighborhood if I can. Whether other people follow suit with my opinion on that, eh.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:Pssst, your expectations are set ridiculously high...

Sure

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 Cheesecat wrote:
When is it okay to have sex with drunk people like if they only have a few drinks is it OK? What if they're a little woozy? Obviously fething a an unconscious person on the floor is a no-no.

I know in many states, Its considered rape if they are drunk.

I'm more asking morally not legally, like if some girl who was tipsy and incredibly hot had offered to have sex with me I would probably accept the offer.

 Cheesecat wrote:
When is it okay to have sex with drunk people like if they only have a few drinks is it OK? What if they're a little woozy? Obviously fething a an unconscious person on the floor is a no-no.

According to my rape/sexual assault awareness classes it's not. Period. Of course what can be considered rape and what will end up charged as rape largely depends on the individuals involved.

 Cheesecat wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 Cheesecat wrote:
When is it okay to have sex with drunk people like if they only have a few drinks is it OK? What if they're a little woozy? Obviously fething a an unconscious person on the floor is a no-no.

I know in many states, Its considered rape if they are drunk.

I'm more asking morally not legally, like if some girl who was tipsy and incredibly hot had offered to have sex with me I would probably accept the offer.

And some would call that rape oddly enough. Even if you yourself were a little tipsy you'd still likely be called a rapist.

Mattman154 wrote:

 Cheesecat wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 Cheesecat wrote:
When is it okay to have sex with drunk people like if they only have a few drinks is it OK? What if they're a little woozy? Obviously fething a an unconscious person on the floor is a no-no.

I know in many states, Its considered rape if they are drunk.

I'm more asking morally not legally, like if some girl who was tipsy and incredibly hot had offered to have sex with me I would probably accept the offer.

And some would call that rape oddly enough. Even if you yourself were a little tipsy you'd still likely be called a rapist.

Which is kinda bs, doesn't matter who the aggressive party was in a drunk random hook up, if you're male you can walk out of said hookup a rapist. "She started it" didn't work on the playground in elementary school and it really doesn't work in a court room.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

Mattman154 wrote:

 Cheesecat wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 Cheesecat wrote:
When is it okay to have sex with drunk people like if they only have a few drinks is it OK? What if they're a little woozy? Obviously fething a an unconscious person on the floor is a no-no.

I know in many states, Its considered rape if they are drunk.

I'm more asking morally not legally, like if some girl who was tipsy and incredibly hot had offered to have sex with me I would probably accept the offer.

And some would call that rape oddly enough. Even if you yourself were a little tipsy you'd still likely be called a rapist.

Which is kinda bs, doesn't matter who the aggressive party was in a drunk random hook up, if you're male you can walk out of said hookup a rapist. "She started it" didn't work on the playground in elementary school and it really doesn't work in a court room.

Call me stupid, but I'm not sure if you're agreeing or disagreeing with what I said.

Mattman154 wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Mattman154 wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
You ever cross the road on foot? Hope you don't get hit by a drunk driver, because, you know, you should have avoided crossing the road on foot and traveled a mile up the road to the bridge...

Is there a crosswalk where I'm crossing? If not I probably shouldn't be crossing there especially if there's a bridge to cross over.

And if I did get hit by a drunk driver and not killed, I hope I maintain my rationality and realize that while he committed a crime by driving drunk, I was being foolish by crossing at that particular spot.

Well then my answer is simple, the vast, vast majority of humanity, including this little girl, do not live to your dizzying standards and if you ascribe that level of fastidiousness to the rest of us in the expectation of following suite, you're going to live a very safe and long life in abject disappointment...

Eh, if I know a neighborhood is dangerous and notorious for crime, I will avoid that neighborhood if I can. Whether other people follow suit with my opinion on that, eh.

You seem to be inserting a precondition here, we have no idea and I'd estimate the chances were quite low, that this little girl was told 'this is a high rape risk party'. So, will you avoid all neighborhoods, because you seem to be expecting young women to avoid all parties due to the risk of rape.

Mattman154 wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:Pssst, your expectations are set ridiculously high...

Sure

You just said that a person going to a party was foolish for getting drunk. That's... well, optimistic is the least offensive thing I can come up with. You must be going to all the wrong parties mate.

According to my rape/sexual assault awareness classes it's not. Period. Of course what can be considered rape and what will end up charged as rape largely depends on the individuals involved.

Don't worry, in Canada as long as you say that she said yes and the other people at the party corroborate that she was indeed coming on to you then it doesn't matter what she says, it's highly unlikely that it would stand up in court.

My brother was reading Canadian Rape law on the couch last night and we were discussing it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Which is kinda bs, doesn't matter who the aggressive party was in a drunk random hook up, if you're male you can walk out of said hookup a rapist. "She started it" didn't work on the playground in elementary school and it really doesn't work in a court room.

Funnily enough "she started it" does indeed work in Canada when it comes to this.

Mattman154 wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

Mattman154 wrote:

 Cheesecat wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 Cheesecat wrote:
When is it okay to have sex with drunk people like if they only have a few drinks is it OK? What if they're a little woozy? Obviously fething a an unconscious person on the floor is a no-no.

I know in many states, Its considered rape if they are drunk.

I'm more asking morally not legally, like if some girl who was tipsy and incredibly hot had offered to have sex with me I would probably accept the offer.

And some would call that rape oddly enough. Even if you yourself were a little tipsy you'd still likely be called a rapist.

Which is kinda bs, doesn't matter who the aggressive party was in a drunk random hook up, if you're male you can walk out of said hookup a rapist. "She started it" didn't work on the playground in elementary school and it really doesn't work in a court room.

Call me stupid, but I'm not sure if you're agreeing or disagreeing with what I said.

I'm agreeing, and commenting on the intense bias a male receives in court when it comes to drunken hook ups.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ratbarf wrote:

According to my rape/sexual assault awareness classes it's not. Period. Of course what can be considered rape and what will end up charged as rape largely depends on the individuals involved.

Don't worry, in Canada as long as you say that she said yes and the other people at the party corroborate that she was indeed coming on to you then it doesn't matter what she says, it's highly unlikely that it would stand up in court.

My brother was reading Canadian Rape law on the couch last night and we were discussing it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Which is kinda bs, doesn't matter who the aggressive party was in a drunk random hook up, if you're male you can walk out of said hookup a rapist. "She started it" didn't work on the playground in elementary school and it really doesn't work in a court room.

Funnily enough "she started it" does indeed work in Canada when it comes to this.

Between this, the fact you still have hockey, and your law that stomps on people falsely wearing military rank/insignia they didn't earn, I think I need to send the Canada roses or something.

 Necroshea wrote:
Why do people assume that when you blame the victim for any sort of act of stupidity, you must automatically believe the accused are innocent of all wrongdoing?

Because people like producing false dichotomies based on emotional outrage?

I find it interesting Anonymous would pick up on this issue. Anyone want to put down money the hacker(s) might be local themselves or maybe from the area? Kind of breaks from what people identifying with that group usually do.

1. Whatever you put online lives forever, and can be seen by anyone

2. Just because you put on a uniform doesn’t make you king of the world

3. If you’re a nice person and do the right thing, issues No. 1 and 2 probably don’t matter

Can we put this on a plaque or something?

Don't worry, in Canada as long as you say that she said yes and the other people at the party corroborate that she was indeed coming on to you then it doesn't matter what she says, it's highly unlikely that it would stand up in court.

Really? What's the public opinion on that (if you know)? That seems like a bad way to investigate rape.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
You seem to be inserting a precondition here, we have no idea and I'd estimate the chances were quite low, that this little girl was told 'this is a high rape risk party'. So, will you avoid all neighborhoods, because you seem to be expecting young women to avoid all parties due to the risk of rape.

Women getting drunk and raped at parties isn't a new thing. Should she avoid all parties due to the risk of being raped? No. Should she not get drunk to the point where she can't make decisions for herself or protect herself in some way? Yes.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:You just said that a person going to a party was foolish for getting drunk. That's... well, optimistic is the least offensive thing I can come up with. You must be going to all the wrong parties mate.

Like I said, not everyone feels the same as me about personal responsibility or accountability.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Which is kinda bs, doesn't matter who the aggressive party was in a drunk random hook up, if you're male you can walk out of said hookup a rapist. "She started it" didn't work on the playground in elementary school and it really doesn't work in a court room.

Although it kind of makes up for the apparently very low reporting rate of rapes, and the low throughput of reported rapes to criminal investigations/charges. Though apparently the lowest incidence of reported rapes is women on men, followed by men on men (although being far less common than men on women rapes).

"The 2006-07 British Crime Survey reports that 1 in every 200 women suffered from rape in that period. It also showed that only 800 people were convicted of rape crimes that same year, meaning that less than 1 in every 100 rape survivors were able to convict their attacker."

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Which is kinda bs, doesn't matter who the aggressive party was in a drunk random hook up, if you're male you can walk out of said hookup a rapist. "She started it" didn't work on the playground in elementary school and it really doesn't work in a court room.

Although it kind of makes up for the apparently very low reporting rate of rapes, and the low throughput of reported rapes to criminal investigations/charges. Though apparently the lowest incidence of reported rapes is women on men, followed by men on men (although being far less common than men on women rapes).

"The 2006-07 British Crime Survey reports that 1 in every 200 women suffered from rape in that period. It also showed that only 800 people were convicted of rape crimes that same year, meaning that less than 1 in every 100 rape survivors were able to convict their attacker."

I wonder how many rapes in total involve drink and human stupidity as opposed to what I will for the lack of a better term call "aggressive rape" where the perp is targeting victims.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
I wonder how many rapes in total involve drink and human stupidity as opposed to what I will for the lack of a better term call "aggressive rape" where the perp is targeting victims.

There was a case recently in the UK where there was a group of men targeting women for rape and essentially passing them around between one another - it was very widely published. I am sure that the crime report would give an indication of the breakdown of the numbers - they often break down the overal crime stats into sub-catagories. I am going to bed now so will not sit and look through the report itself - it should be available online if you are interested in doing so yourself.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
I wonder how many rapes in total involve drink and human stupidity as opposed to what I will for the lack of a better term call "aggressive rape" where the perp is targeting victims.

Going simply off what is known, date rape is the most common form of rape afaik. EDIT: In the US.

 LordofHats wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
I wonder how many rapes in total involve drink and human stupidity as opposed to what I will for the lack of a better term call "aggressive rape" where the perp is targeting victims.

Going simply off what is known, date rape is the most common form of rape afaik. EDIT: In the US.

Define date rape? As in actively dropping a roofie on someone? Or just getting them intoxicated to the point of taking advantage?

Blegh I'm tired and terminology is confusing me.

One definition from the wiki of all pedias:

Wikipedia wrote:Commonly, date rape is referring to drug-facilitated sexual assault and/or acquaintance rape.

Based on this, I would assume that it would cover drunk sex.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Define date rape? As in actively dropping a roofie on someone? Or just getting them intoxicated to the point of taking advantage?

Blegh I'm tired and terminology is confusing me.

huh... I think date rape generally covers rape by someone known to the victim in the course of a social outing? I'm not sure how many happen at parties or involve alcohol or drugs.

Really? What's the public opinion on that (if you know)? That seems like a bad way to investigate rape.

I don't think people do know that particular one in general though, it takes a decent bit of interest and motivation. Heck just about everyone I know seems to think the legal age in Canada is 18 when it's actually 16...

People are ignorant.

Link for whoever wants it.

I don't understand why people are bringing up the fact that she was drunk. Yes, being drunk is bad according to some people. But it didn't make her being raped any less acceptable.

 LoneLictor wrote:
I don't understand why people are bringing up the fact that she was drunk. Yes, being drunk is bad according to some people. But it didn't make her being raped any less acceptable.

Except that alcohol lowers inhibitions and the ability to make rational decisions once consumed in large enough quantities. There are three lives being ruined here. The young lady's and the two football players. If they did indeed rape her, then yes they deserve to face the full brunt of the law. If all three of them were drunk, and they all entered into the idiotic choice to have sex while intoxicated, and the girl cried rape in order to save her skin, then this is a travesty. Football players or not, there is the chance that three lives are going to be ruined, which is EXACTLY why alcohol and the girl's level of sobriety is being brought into question.

 Alfndrate wrote:

 LoneLictor wrote:
I don't understand why people are bringing up the fact that she was drunk. Yes, being drunk is bad according to some people. But it didn't make her being raped any less acceptable.

Except that alcohol lowers inhibitions and the ability to make rational decisions once consumed in large enough quantities. There are three lives being ruined here. The young lady's and the two football players. If they did indeed rape her, then yes they deserve to face the full brunt of the law. If all three of them were drunk, and they all entered into the idiotic choice to have sex while intoxicated, and the girl cried rape in order to save her skin, then this is a travesty. Football players or not, there is the chance that three lives are going to be ruined, which is EXACTLY why alcohol and the girl's level of sobriety is being brought into question.

Yup... that's reasonable. Looks like the police will be investigating and will prosecute if necessary.

<stepping out out of the conversation>

 whembly wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

 LoneLictor wrote:
I don't understand why people are bringing up the fact that she was drunk. Yes, being drunk is bad according to some people. But it didn't make her being raped any less acceptable.

Except that alcohol lowers inhibitions and the ability to make rational decisions once consumed in large enough quantities. There are three lives being ruined here. The young lady's and the two football players. If they did indeed rape her, then yes they deserve to face the full brunt of the law. If all three of them were drunk, and they all entered into the idiotic choice to have sex while intoxicated, and the girl cried rape in order to save her skin, then this is a travesty. Football players or not, there is the chance that three lives are going to be ruined, which is EXACTLY why alcohol and the girl's level of sobriety is being brought into question.

Yup... that's reasonable. Looks like the police will be investigating and will prosecute if necessary.

<stepping out out of the conversation>

Same, I'm going to keep watching this thread, but I don't see much else taking place in here...