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Stranger83 wrote:

I find it hard to believe that when you are spending £500/600 to start a hobby (presuming you are starting from scratch) that you will pick one game over another because the total cost of a "complete" force would be £30/40 more than the other game - I just don't see that happening. What you would do is pick the game your friends play or the models/rules that appeal to you most over an extra 5% on your total cost surely?

An average 50 pts army for Wamahordes (the upper point tier that people usually play), will cost you around £250-300, it will not cost you £500-600.

Fully functional "armies" for both Infinity and Malifaux will come bellow £100.

Another GW price rise thread?

People will continue to buy from GW while complaining about them.

People make a lot of noise and forum rants, but ultimately still keep opening their wallet.

Only a small minority of people actually follow through with their "I'm gonna play something else" forum post, but they are a largely insignificant number who will have absolutely zero impact on GW's bottom line of "sell toys to kids with rich parents who want to keep them away from video games/ computers/ TV for more than 2 seconds".

There's a LOT of parental desire for their offspring to be doing something that involves said offspring reading a book, painting, or socialising with other kids (wargaming in a nutshell!), and no amount of price grumbling from hoary old vets is going to change that fact.

If you want to remain happy with GW as a company, it is very important to accept that you are not the target audience. Doesn't mean you can't enjoy the stuff they make, but you do have to understand and accept their business model.

As an analogy, I enjoy MLP, but I am under no illusion that it is anything other than a 22-minute toy advertisement when it comes down to the business end of things, and that the target audience is children.

GW has exactly the same business model, selling plastic toys to kids.

"All of this has happened before, all of this will happen again."

 scarletsquig wrote:
Another GW price rise thread?

People will continue to buy from GW while complaining about them.

People make a lot of noise and forum rants, but ultimately still keep opening their wallet.

Only a small minority of people actually follow through with their "I'm gonna play something else" forum post, but they are a largely insignificant number who will have absolutely zero impact on GW's bottom line of "sell toys to kids with rich parents who want to keep them away from video games/ computers/ TV for more than 2 seconds".

(Citation needed)

PhantomViper wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:

I find it hard to believe that when you are spending £500/600 to start a hobby (presuming you are starting from scratch) that you will pick one game over another because the total cost of a "complete" force would be £30/40 more than the other game - I just don't see that happening. What you would do is pick the game your friends play or the models/rules that appeal to you most over an extra 5% on your total cost surely?

An average 50 pts army for Wamahordes (the upper point tier that people usually play), will cost you around £250-300, it will not cost you £500-600.

Fully functional "armies" for both Infinity and Malifaux will come bellow £100.

I put £500/600 as I was presuming you would want some degree of flexability in the army – plus the cost of boards and terrain. If you want to price up a simple playable army I could (probably) make a 2000 point CSM army for £250/300, certainly less than £340 anyway – but of cause I’d have to take the same army every game and play on my carpet – a far more normal spend for someone new to the hobby is to double your army cost on terrain (based on nothing more than my own personal experiance), which might not be classed as part of the “army” but is certainly needed for the hobby.

As I posted a couple of posts ago I played a fully legal CSM army of 1500 points (a reasonable game size) that came to around £120.

I had just got back into the swing of 40k under the new (to me) rules, with a new SM army and was having a blast, just starting to put my second army together...when:

A few decisions were made in the local store that I was not keen on
Getting a table to game on became tricky
Started being kicked to the side in favour of new players. Being a steady customer apparently makes for being a second class citizen
The prices jumped and my second army suddenly became a lot more expensive to complete
A new set of rules appeared on the horizon
GW wider business practices started to really rankle

It was not just the prices, but the vibe surrounding "The Hobby" that did it for me. It was just not fun any more. Which was a shame, because fr a brief period it was as awesome for me as it had been when I first started out as a kid. I started looking for alternatives. I found a HUGE array of games to choose from. There has been an explosion of choice (Funnily enough I spotted that many of the games were produced by former GW designers/sculptors). In the end I picked Warmachine/Hordes...

And at the same time, two of my friends and their kids started looking for alternatives. I showed them what I was up to, and now I am enjoying a rather cool, fledgling little tabletop gaming group. No stores, no politics...just dice and destruction, friendly games, plates of biscuits and big mugs of tea.

Was it prices that pushed me away from Games Workshop? Yes. But not on their own.

Stranger83 wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:

I find it hard to believe that when you are spending £500/600 to start a hobby (presuming you are starting from scratch) that you will pick one game over another because the total cost of a "complete" force would be £30/40 more than the other game - I just don't see that happening. What you would do is pick the game your friends play or the models/rules that appeal to you most over an extra 5% on your total cost surely?

An average 50 pts army for Wamahordes (the upper point tier that people usually play), will cost you around £250-300, it will not cost you £500-600.

Fully functional "armies" for both Infinity and Malifaux will come bellow £100.

I put £500/600 as I was presuming you would want some degree of flexability in the army – plus the cost of boards and terrain. If you want to price up a simple playable army I could (probably) make a 2000 point CSM army for £250/300, certainly less than £340 anyway – but of cause I’d have to take the same army every game and play on my carpet – a far more normal spend for someone new to the hobby is to double your army cost on terrain (based on nothing more than my own personal experiance), which might not be classed as part of the “army” but is certainly needed for the hobby.

Ok, lets make an exercise then. I don't know if you are a tournament player or not, but this is the army that I took to our last WM tournament. Its fairly representative of a middle of the road army in terms of units. I went to Firestormgames and took the price of every unit:

eHaley £8.06
- Squire £5.36
- Stormclad £16.16
- Thunderhead £26.96
Stormblades £24.26
- Stormblades UA £9.86
Black 13th £8.96
Anastasia Di Bray £4.46
Gorman di Wulfe £4.46

Total: 35 pts £108.54

Could you please do the same to the army that you took to your last 1500 pts 40k tournament? I could do it myself, but I used to play IG in 5th ed 40k so the comparison wouldn't be fair in any way...

Brother Gyoken wrote:


(Citation needed)

It's all there in the financial reports, GW has been posting healthy profit lately, as a result of their increased margins and new "no-rumours" policy.

They are in zero danger of going bankrupt, and their current business model is a highly efficient method of maximizing dividend yield for their shareholders, which, when it comes down to it , is the *only* goal of a publically-owned company.

If you don't like it, complaining on a forum will make no difference, only changing games will. Lots of good choices out there these days.

If you want to keep playing GW games, that's also fine, they're plenty of fun if you're a middle class person who can afford a luxury hobby. If you're working class then you're out of luck, but then that applies to a lot of things in life.

Comparing Malifaux and Warmachine prices to GW as a way of making GW seem affordable is not the best of ideas, as skirmish games, they have to operate on the understanding that their customers will only be buying a very small number of miniatures from them.

Try comparing them to a Mantic boxset with 110 minis for £50, or historicals and you soon start seeing exactly how overpriced they are.

 scarletsquig wrote:
Another GW price rise thread?

People will continue to buy from GW while complaining about them.

People make a lot of noise and forum rants, but ultimately still keep opening their wallet.

Only a small minority of people actually follow through with their "I'm gonna play something else" forum post, but they are a largely insignificant number who will have absolutely zero impact on GW's bottom line of "sell toys to kids with rich parents who want to keep them away from video games/ computers/ TV for more than 2 seconds".

There's a LOT of parental desire for their offspring to be doing something that involves said offspring reading a book, painting, or socialising with other kids (wargaming in a nutshell!), and no amount of price grumbling from hoary old vets is going to change that fact.

If you want to remain happy with GW as a company, it is very important to accept that you are not the target audience. Doesn't mean you can't enjoy the stuff they make, but you do have to understand and accept their business model.

As an analogy, I enjoy MLP, but I am under no illusion that it is anything other than a 22-minute toy advertisement when it comes down to the business end of things, and that the target audience is children.

GW has exactly the same business model, selling plastic toys to kids.

"All of this has happened before, all of this will happen again."

I believe this statement to be true to a degree...BUT....again what my point was this; Yes, I will open my wallet to buy chaos stuff and continue to grow my apoc force (7 defilers etc.), however while players will buy product for their existing armies, where this hurts the hobby is that veteran players will not start new armies and most likely sell off their "off" armies (again I went from 8 to 4 and really thinking about selling off 1 more). Also it hurts the player base as veteran players leave with no influx of new players to replace them due to price. Other than some new release stuff I buy almost all my models second hand off of ebay (and no I dont even really care anymore if they are chinese recast - I know I know I am a terrible person), or craigslist. Most Craigslist stuff ends up on ebay to fund other buys.

PhantomViper wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:

I find it hard to believe that when you are spending £500/600 to start a hobby (presuming you are starting from scratch) that you will pick one game over another because the total cost of a "complete" force would be £30/40 more than the other game - I just don't see that happening. What you would do is pick the game your friends play or the models/rules that appeal to you most over an extra 5% on your total cost surely?

An average 50 pts army for Wamahordes (the upper point tier that people usually play), will cost you around £250-300, it will not cost you £500-600.

Fully functional "armies" for both Infinity and Malifaux will come bellow £100.

I put £500/600 as I was presuming you would want some degree of flexability in the army – plus the cost of boards and terrain. If you want to price up a simple playable army I could (probably) make a 2000 point CSM army for £250/300, certainly less than £340 anyway – but of cause I’d have to take the same army every game and play on my carpet – a far more normal spend for someone new to the hobby is to double your army cost on terrain (based on nothing more than my own personal experiance), which might not be classed as part of the “army” but is certainly needed for the hobby.

Ok, lets make an exercise then. I don't know if you are a tournament player or not, but this is the army that I took to our last WM tournament. Its fairly representative of a middle of the road army in terms of units. I went to Firestormgames and took the price of every unit:

eHaley £8.06
- Squire £5.36
- Stormclad £16.16
- Thunderhead £26.96
Stormblades £24.26
- Stormblades UA £9.86
Black 13th £8.96
Anastasia Di Bray £4.46
Gorman di Wulfe £4.46

Total: 35 pts £108.54

Could you please do the same to the army that you took to your last 1500 pts 40k tournament? I could do it myself, but I used to play IG in 5th ed 40k so the comparison wouldn't be fair in any way...

I will take up your challenge as soon as I get home and have the codex to hand.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mutley wrote:
I had just got back into the swing of 40k under the new (to me) rules, with a new SM army and was having a blast, just starting to put my second army together...when:

A few decisions were made in the local store that I was not keen on
Getting a table to game on became tricky
Started being kicked to the side in favour of new players. Being a steady customer apparently makes for being a second class citizen
The prices jumped and my second army suddenly became a lot more expensive to complete
A new set of rules appeared on the horizon
GW wider business practices started to really rankle

It was not just the prices, but the vibe surrounding "The Hobby" that did it for me. It was just not fun any more. Which was a shame, because fr a brief period it was as awesome for me as it had been when I first started out as a kid. I started looking for alternatives. I found a HUGE array of games to choose from. There has been an explosion of choice (Funnily enough I spotted that many of the games were produced by former GW designers/sculptors). In the end I picked Warmachine/Hordes...

And at the same time, two of my friends and their kids started looking for alternatives. I showed them what I was up to, and now I am enjoying a rather cool, fledgling little tabletop gaming group. No stores, no politics...just dice and destruction, friendly games, plates of biscuits and big mugs of tea.

Was it prices that pushed me away from Games Workshop? Yes. But not on their own.

This is exactly it - you don't say how long you had been getting back into the hobby but you do say you had finished an army, am I right in thinking it was between 12 month and a year?

GW are quite open that they try to milk people for cash for a year/2 years then look to the next crop of player incoming. This makes some degree of financial sense as once you have your army you have no reason to buy another (ok, we all did but we didn't "have" to) After 18 month your going to get board of the same tabletop game all the time and start to look for others - which means you'll probably go away from GW anyway (bad move GW dropping specialist games, that is something I do not understand at all).

That is GW logic, and frankly it seems to be doing very well for them, I see no reason they would stop until it stops working for them.

 quickfuze wrote:
I believe this statement to be true to a degree...BUT....again what my point was this; Yes, I will open my wallet to buy chaos stuff and continue to grow my apoc force (7 defilers etc.), however while players will buy product for their existing armies, where this hurts the hobby is that veteran players will not start new armies and most likely sell off their "off" armies (again I went from 8 to 4 and really thinking about selling off 1 more). Also it hurts the player base as veteran players leave with no influx of new players to replace them due to price. Other than some new release stuff I buy almost all my models second hand off of ebay (and no I dont even really care anymore if they are chinese recast - I know I know I am a terrible person), or craigslist. Most Craigslist stuff ends up on ebay to fund other buys.

Veterans leaving doesn't matter to GW. At all.

They run a high-turnover business model where the ideal customer is an 8-year old kid with rich parents who buy him/her a ton of stuff which gets horrifically badly glued together, dunked in paint, then thrown in the bin 6 months later when they get bored of it.

That's the great thing about selling to children, no matter how many get fed up and leave as they get older, that doesn't matter because there's always more new ones who have no preconceptions and have no idea about what the prices used to be like and no knowledge of alternatives even existing (the careful marketing of "The Games Workshop Hobby" is designed to present GW as the only source of wargaming miniatures that exists).

Finecast is an excellent product from that perspective, as it is much harder to strip and re-sell than metal.

Instead of buying Chinese recasts, consider buying your miniatures from other, more affordable companies instead and using these to play 40k with. Admittedly, it's a lot easier to do this with warhammer fantasy at the moment, but give it a year and there will be plenty of good 40k alt stuff on the market, too, courtesy of Dreamforge and Mantic.

I didnt point it out as I dont have time, but it should be close I went with 1 HQ, 2 Troops, 1 Fast attack and 1 Heavy.
Chaos Lord
Squad of Plague MArines
Squad of Chaos Marines
Helldrake
Havoc Squad
$253.50 = $155.97 (in your goofy money)

Now that doesnt take into account that I am probably well under 1500 points AND that because of the Chaos boon table, you also need a demon prince model and a spawn model incase you roll and morph into one (otherwise your guy is removed as a casualty according to the rules) so add in another $82.50 (or $50.76 for you red coats), and again know I am WAY under 1500pts


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 scarletsquig wrote:

 quickfuze wrote:
I believe this statement to be true to a degree...BUT....again what my point was this; Yes, I will open my wallet to buy chaos stuff and continue to grow my apoc force (7 defilers etc.), however while players will buy product for their existing armies, where this hurts the hobby is that veteran players will not start new armies and most likely sell off their "off" armies (again I went from 8 to 4 and really thinking about selling off 1 more). Also it hurts the player base as veteran players leave with no influx of new players to replace them due to price. Other than some new release stuff I buy almost all my models second hand off of ebay (and no I dont even really care anymore if they are chinese recast - I know I know I am a terrible person), or craigslist. Most Craigslist stuff ends up on ebay to fund other buys.

Veterans leaving doesn't matter to GW. At all.

They run a high-turnover business model where the ideal customer is an 8-year old kid with rich parents who buy him/her a ton of stuff which gets horrifically badly glued together, dunked in paint, then thrown in the bin 6 months later when they get bored of it.

That's the great thing about selling to children, no matter how many get fed up and leave as they get older, that doesn't matter because there's always more new ones who have no preconceptions and have no idea about what the prices used to be like and no knowledge of alternatives even existing (the careful marketing of "The Games Workshop Hobby" is designed to present GW as the only source of wargaming miniatures that exists).

Finecast is an excellent product from that perspective, as it is much harder to strip and re-sell than metal.

Instead of buying Chinese recasts, consider buying your miniatures from other, more affordable companies instead and using these to play 40k with. Admittedly, it's a lot easier to do this with warhammer fantasy at the moment, but give it a year and there will be plenty of good 40k alt stuff on the market, too, courtesy of Dreamforge and Mantic.

Oh I would LOOOOVE to do this, as there are some companies out there making some really good looking models, but until the tournament scene decides to finally shed the GW miniature requirement to play, I will be forced to go the route I am.

I have most definately been priced out of GW games, well I've been priced out of most things at the moment but I'm going to do my best to not turn this post into a self-serving rant at my current net wealth, but hey I've got enough unpainted orks and skaven to keep me busy for years to come.

For me, I just don't see the 'bang for the buck' anymore, while their hobby range is quite nice (a little on the expensive side, but to be honest I only buy paints and brushes from them), and a majority of the new models look great, I just can't justify the expenditure on 'new' toys (such as starting a 2nd army) or updating my current army to be more 6th-friendly (as well as getting the rulebook) knowing full well that sooner or later something will be changed and I'll have to re-jig the whole thing and spend even more money. The only other thing I buy is White Dwarf, it's not as big a hit if you get it on subscription at £9 a quarter, but I'm considering ditching it as I just can't get the hype for it I used to.

For me, the shift has gone towards board games, mainly because a rather decent chap who's a bit of an addict always brings a bunch to games night, but they do seem to be the 'better buy' at the moment, mainly because they don't require constant investment, but I'm thinking of dabbling in some skirmish games (particularly malifaux or Infinity), just need to gauge how much local interest there is before I fork out.

 Breotan wrote:
According to BoLS, here are the prices for the new DA stuff coming in January:

Codex: Dark Angels (English) 104pp Colour Hardback $49.50
Ravenwing Dark Talon 1 Mini $75.00
Land Speeder Vengeance 1 Mini $65.00
Deathwing Command Squad 5 Minis $60.00
Ravenwing Command Squad 3 Minis $50.00
Dark Angels Battleforce 8 Minis $110.00

That's right. $75.00 for that flier and $50.00 for three bikes. Oh, and don't forget that awesome DA Battleforce with eight whole models.

I heavily rely on Dark Angels figures for my DYI chapter but I'm wondering if GW has finally hit that magical point where I simply can't justify the cost of their product. I have more disposable income than a lot of people out there so I expect that many of you have already hit this wall. If so, when did it happen for you? If you haven't hit it yet, how is your hobby future looking?

I don't call these "The Dark Angel prices". I call this "The June preview". I look forward to all the price 'adjustments' that we're sure to get bringing regular Termies (and Wolf Guard, and GKT's, and Chaos Termies) in line with these Terminators, and so on for every other like-type mini.

What fun!

Stranger83 wrote:
I’ve just looked at the online retailer that I use for the majority of my game shopping and looked at the cost of a starter box for 40k (i.e. DV) and a starter box for Warmachine (which is often given as a shining example of low cost models) The cost of DV was £46.13 the cost of Warmachine was £62.96 – so Warmachine costs more!! OK, so lets look at what is included, in DV you get a total 48 miniatures (I won’t count rulebooks and such as both games come with these), in the Warmachine one you get 17 miniatures so you get 31 more in the DV box!!! Now I don;t know the size of said miniatures, but the DV box looks a lot better value to me here.

Going by the price you quoted and the amount of models I'm guessing this is one of the two-player boxes that consists of a Warcaster battlegroup and unit of troops, something IIRC works out as 25 pts and can be used in standard battles and tournies since they're 'legal' armies straight out of the box. DV on the other hand despite having more models doesn't give you a 'legal' army straight out of the box and so extra models are typically required to get to a point where the army is 'legal'.

At the same time the single battlegroup boxes are roughly £30 and yet still give you a legal army straight out of the box.

Yeah on a model-by-model case Warmachine can be more expensive, but when you compare how much you have to pay in order to get a legal starting army in either game there is a big price difference.

I just want to know where these mythical eight-year-olds exist that are keeping GW funded. I managed a game store for several years and didn't meet a single minor that played. I've frequented 3 other game stores in a different area and met a single player that started when he was 17. Meanwhile, every CCG sold has a bunch of kids playing it, as well as adults, so it's not like my area just has no child gamers.

Are these 8-year-olds the same people posting in defense of GW everytime they raise prices? How are these 8-year-olds learning about GW? If GW does basically no advertising, where can this supposedly vast group of children even HEAR about the product?

Children being GW's core demo is just a ridiculous concept right on its face. They may claim that is true, but it just makes no logical sense. People are claiming that not only are children what keeps GW afloat, but a specific subset of children that have heard about the product, and a subset of THAT subset that have wealthy parents that will not balk at the prices and refuse. That makes NO MATHEMATICAL SENSE.

The more likely explanation is that young adults and veterans are keeping the company afloat as they open their wallet even whilst grumbling about the absolutely crazytown prices. And GW can claim their intended demographic is children and thus ignore anything their regular customers say.

Brother Gyoken wrote:
I just want to know where these mythical eight-year-olds exist that are keeping GW funded. I managed a game store for several years and didn't meet a single minor that played. I've frequented 3 other game stores in a different area and met a single player that started when he was 17. Meanwhile, every CCG sold has a bunch of kids playing it, as well as adults, so it's not like my area just has no child gamers.

Are these 8-year-olds the same people posting in defense of GW everytime they raise prices? How are these 8-year-olds learning about GW? If GW does basically no advertising, where can this supposedly vast group of children even HEAR about the product?

Children being GW's core demo is just a ridiculous concept right on its face. They may claim that is true, but it just makes no logical sense. People are claiming that not only are children what keeps GW afloat, but a specific subset of children that have heard about the product, and a subset of THAT subset that have wealthy parents that will not balk at the prices and refuse. That makes NO MATHEMATICAL SENSE.

The more likely explanation is that young adults and veterans are keeping the company afloat as they open their wallet even whilst grumbling about the absolutely crazytown prices. And GW can claim their intended demographic is children and thus ignore anything their regular customers say.

I don't think it's that young (as I've seen certain staff turn away anyone who was under 11 in the past); but typically in the UK, GW will run loads and loads of beginner courses this month for the influx of kiddies they've got over Christmas. Now relatively few will stop on but during January you'll see a spike in their numbers actually having a presence in GW stores. Then those that stop on will typically attend school clubs. I can't speak for wherever you're from; but this is how it appears to work in the UK.

GW has a few old timer "hangers-on" in what I like to call "GW towns" (as in the only place to play was the local GW and the gaming club is predominantly GW games (not through lack of trying I might add). This also appears to be a purely UK phenomenon.) that will never go to other games but for the most part when I go into my local GW to pick up some paints (pretty much all I do now) I barely see a single recognisable face. GW has done a very good job of scaring off it's long term fans with its various shenanigans.

We need a fact-checker thread which shows all the people who said they had quit or were quitting last thread, then crosschecks with the news threads or the modeling threads to show those people who had quit continue to buy new models as seen in modeling or claim they are going to buy 'that sexy model' in the news thread.

When you actually do the homework it is comical to see how dishonest people are about their purchasing habits most posters on Dakka are and how much of this is chest-thumping. My Favorite was seeing outspoken haters who quit 3 years ago playing Necron air force with Finecast HQs at tourneys after saying they would never buy GW or Finecast again.

This is why GW is not worried.

I definately plan out every single GW item that i need to purchase and almost never buy from GW directly in favor of discount retailers. Im still horrified at going to have to fork out a herrendous amount of cash for a stormraven or land raider for my blood angels...

there is a tiny little bit of an upside to all the price rising...it forces me to be a lot more creative when i need special characters for my armies as these days i usually end up kitbashing up all my special characters from bits. Had a few fun hours last night modeling a master of the fleet and an astropath for my IG command squad. also i've had to convert my own sanguanary priests and chaplains as the price for a single finecast mini is approaching the point of sheer ignorance...

like we say in holland... Elk nadeel heb zn voordeel... ( every disadvantage has its own advantage)

chrisjuuuh wrote:
I definately plan out every single GW item that i need to purchase and almost never buy from GW directly in favor of discount retailers. Im still horrified at going to have to fork out a herrendous amount of cash for a stormraven or land raider for my blood angels...

Pretty much. I got a 1850 list for tournaments finished and will not buy any other model from GW until 7th or a new Necron codex is released. I paid about 200€ for the force and given that this army is now valid for a few years, I'm fine with the cost.

There are so many armies that I would love to have but with these prices I can't justify it. I'm going to finish off the armies I have already started, stop buying any more and just play the game. I rarely buy codices/rule books now even though I prefer having hard copies, I just "acquire" pdf versions instead.

My local GW have just started a planetary empires campaign which sounds awesome and I would love to join in with but each participant has to have their own "planet" made out of the planetary empires box to play. No way I'm forking out £35 to play a campaign with no prize for the winner.

Yeah I have hit the wall - I now have thousands of models and dozens of books and I can't be bothered to buy them new anymore. The cost of the new codexes has killed it for me more than the models.

Ebay is now my main source of things I fancy................

 edbradders wrote:
There are so many armies that I would love to have but with these prices I can't justify it. I'm going to finish off the armies I have already started, stop buying any more and just play the game. I rarely buy codices/rule books now even though I prefer having hard copies, I just "acquire" pdf versions instead.

My local GW have just started a planetary empires campaign which sounds awesome and I would love to join in with but each participant has to have their own "planet" made out of the planetary empires box to play. No way I'm forking out £35 to play a campaign with no prize for the winner.

yeee.. GW stores don't seem to be organizing anything that wont earn them a quick buck. there's a "free" masterclass painting lesson going on in one of the local GW's with the mere stipulation that you are required to buy the Ork nob and 10 pots of paint that are needed in store.

nkelsch wrote:
We need a fact-checker thread which shows all the people who said they had quit or were quitting last thread, then crosschecks with the news threads or the modeling threads to show those people who had quit continue to buy new models as seen in modeling or claim they are going to buy 'that sexy model' in the news thread.

When you actually do the homework it is comical to see how dishonest people are about their purchasing habits most posters on Dakka are and how much of this is chest-thumping. My Favorite was seeing outspoken haters who quit 3 years ago playing Necron air force with Finecast HQs at tourneys after saying they would never buy GW or Finecast again.

This is why GW is not worried.

Hahaha "do the homework."

Please, by all means present your research "findings" to the class.

No doubt some people who swore they'd quit still buy. However, postings on message boards are not "research" or really indicative of the playerbase as a whole. I mean, if I were just using your postings as "research" I'd assume your lips were fimrly attached to...

Brother Gyoken wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
We need a fact-checker thread which shows all the people who said they had quit or were quitting last thread, then crosschecks with the news threads or the modeling threads to show those people who had quit continue to buy new models as seen in modeling or claim they are going to buy 'that sexy model' in the news thread.

When you actually do the homework it is comical to see how dishonest people are about their purchasing habits most posters on Dakka are and how much of this is chest-thumping. My Favorite was seeing outspoken haters who quit 3 years ago playing Necron air force with Finecast HQs at tourneys after saying they would never buy GW or Finecast again.

This is why GW is not worried.

Hahaha "do the homework."

Please, by all means present your research "findings" to the class.

No doubt some people who swore they'd quit still buy. However, postings on message boards are not "research" or really indicative of the playerbase as a whole. I mean, if I were just using your postings as "research" I'd assume your lips were fimrly attached to...

Nice... Personal attacks from an extreme low post count.

People already know who fake-quit a long time ago... it comes up every thread.

Addiction is bad for a reason and while people want to quit and have reasons to quit, it doesn't mean they do. I honestly thing the biggest thing that 'hurts' GW is bad models as the simple fact is if someone makes a model which someone wants... they will buy it. The same way people won't blindly buy cheap models which are ugly or poor sculpts.

Price is not and has never been the breaking point. Model design is. If they make something which is really well done and looks cool, people will buy it.

I reached my point earlier this year. I was seriously thinking about returning to the hobby, but the prices in combination with the lack luster rules pushed me away. I don't want to pay premium prices for inferior rule, even though the model quality is acceptable to me. GW has basically three options to bring me back.

1) Drop prices by 25% or more
2) Balance the rules for all armies at the same time and drop the price 10% or more
3) Go to the PP model of releasing stuff for all armies at the same time and drop the price 10% or more.

On the ever present Warmachine topic, the other issue everyone has missed is that GW doesn't typically package their boxes with all the options one needs to field a squad how they want it. If you want a lascannon and plasma gun in a IG squad, purchase both individually, driving up the cost even more and resulting in left over models. WM gives basically no options, so the unit is ready to field "out of the box" with one purchase. Granted there is less customization.

nkelsch wrote:

Nice... Personal attacks from an extreme low post count.

People already know who fake-quit a long time ago... it comes up every thread.

Addiction is bad for a reason and while people want to quit and have reasons to quit, it doesn't mean they do. I honestly thing the biggest thing that 'hurts' GW is bad models as the simple fact is if someone makes a model which someone wants... they will buy it. The same way people won't blindly buy cheap models which are ugly or poor sculpts.

Price is not and has never been the breaking point. Model design is. If they make something which is really well done and looks cool, people will buy it.

Painting everyone who claims to have quit as a liar is the same type of personal attack as what I said.

Also not sure what my post count has to do with anything. I'm not a big fan of the type of posting here, so I don't really say a lot except when it's egregiously bad.

When I see the new Chaos models I see the expense more. When I see the old models I love, I care a lot less

Barfolomew wrote:

On the ever present Warmachine topic, the other issue everyone has missed is that GW doesn't typically package their boxes with all the options one needs to field a squad how they want it. If you want a lascannon and plasma gun in a IG squad, purchase both individually, driving up the cost even more and resulting in left over models. WM gives basically no options, so the unit is ready to field "out of the box" with one purchase. Granted there is less customization.

That said, although I haven't played Warmachine, I have read the rulebook, and the armylists for several factions, and I have to say, it looks like Warmachine is much less homogenous than 40k. Sure, you don't have the tiny unit customizations, but the choices you do make in composition mean a lot more, especially warcasters. Switching a few models around can create a completely different playstyle. The same cannot be said about 40k, where switching entire armies sometimes doesn't even have that effect. Much of this stems from GW's insistence on using an extremely basic D6 system for everything, but there are many other layer of the game and its factions' design that encourages this. What's more, this homogenous and redundant nature of many units 40k only goes to encourage specific units always coming out on top of others (ie, Vendettas being the only IG fast attack unit, for all intents and purposes), and the mass spam lists popular in competitive play.

 derek wrote:

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:

I was shopping for my 2 year olds birthday today and while in toys are us I went to check out the cool new Star Wars toys I saw that the new millennium falcon is $250!! http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B000LRKTZ8/ref=mp_s_a_1?qid=1357173681&sr=8-36&pi=SL75 I was shocked! anyway I ended up buying my daughter a Woody from toy story which was $35 and Buzz cost $55 (both expensive IMO) I guess the price of everything has gone up a lot.

That is an extremely expensive Falcon. I remember getting something similar years ago for a Birthday/Christmas and it being in the $40-$50 range. It was around the time they started producing Star Wars 3.5 inch figures again. Looking at it, I'd be willing to bet that it is the same thing that has just been reissued over and over. Toys in general have gone up a lot. I remember looking at the action figures that used to be $3.99 - $4.99 and being shocked that they're now $9.99-$14.99.

Its actually a new mold. The one they put out when they started releasing the 3.5 inch figures again was the same mold from the 70's. The mold broke a few years back, so they completely redesigned it. Its now about 3 feet across. What is really crazy is that they were selling it for only $150 only two years ago (a price hick the likes of which GW could get behind).

Toy prices really haven't gone up that much (at least compared to inflation). My memory is a bit fuzzy, but I remember buying star wars guys in the early 80's for about $4 bucks, which roughly calculates to $9.50 (per the http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/), so they haven't really outpaced inflation. Some things have gone down in comparison too... a Nintendo cartridge was about $40 - 50 around release, which is comparable to most PS3 games now.

 Fafnir wrote:
That said, although I haven't played Warmachine, I have read the rulebook, and the armylists for several factions, and I have to say, it looks like Warmachine is much less homogenous than 40k. Sure, you don't have the tiny unit customizations, but the choices you do make in composition mean a lot more, especially warcasters. Switching a few models around can create a completely different playstyle. The same cannot be said about 40k, where switching entire armies sometimes doesn't even have that effect. Much of this stems from GW's insistence on using an extremely basic D6 system for everything, but there are many other layer of the game and its factions' design that encourages this. What's more, this homogenous and redundant nature of many units 40k only goes to encourage specific units always coming out on top of others (ie, Vendettas being the only IG fast attack unit, for all intents and purposes), and the mass spam lists popular in competitive play.

I concur. This means you can have an army which plays drastically different by changing one or a handful of models. Not to mention that WM used (may still) allows one to bring two lists from the same faction to a tournament, preventing a list being screwed by a bad match up.