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 Fafnir wrote:

Barfolomew wrote:

On the ever present Warmachine topic, the other issue everyone has missed is that GW doesn't typically package their boxes with all the options one needs to field a squad how they want it. If you want a lascannon and plasma gun in a IG squad, purchase both individually, driving up the cost even more and resulting in left over models. WM gives basically no options, so the unit is ready to field "out of the box" with one purchase. Granted there is less customization.

That said, although I haven't played Warmachine, I have read the rulebook, and the armylists for several factions, and I have to say, it looks like Warmachine is much less homogenous than 40k. Sure, you don't have the tiny unit customizations, but the choices you do make in composition mean a lot more, especially warcasters. Switching a few models around can create a completely different playstyle. The same cannot be said about 40k, where switching entire armies sometimes doesn't even have that effect. Much of this stems from GW's insistence on using an extremely basic D6 system for everything, but there are many other layer of the game and its factions' design that encourages this. What's more, this homogenous and redundant nature of many units 40k only goes to encourage specific units always coming out on top of others (ie, Vendettas being the only IG fast attack unit, for all intents and purposes), and the mass spam lists popular in competitive play.

Not quite. The homogeneity of statlines within a single codex/army book does much more to accomplish that - whether I shoot at a scout, a PA marine or something in TDA I'm gunning for T4 - the shots I'm getting back are (almost) all BS4 and either S4 or an exception whereas when I shoot at a Khador army both the DEF and ARM values of units can be all over the place, just like what's being shot back at me. Sure, that bell curve system is a bit different but you can achieve pretty much as much variation in a 40K like system by making units more distinct.
Take for example necrons: Immortals are just tougher warriors (not exactly, but close, compared to lots of choices to be made in WM/H army composition) with better guns; deathmarks just have a different gun and the T5 infantry isn't all that distinctive either (apart from not being that good, generally, and just not being taken all that much); there's three vehicle profiles with variants, two of which are remarkably similar to shoot at, and the monolith - and this all goes into perhaps two or three categories of internally very similar competitive builds. (and this is a modern codex with a lot of competitive variation!)
Not only is there not half as much variation in units as in, for example, that Khador forces book - often times half of the units aren't worth taking competitively and only two or three builds per book really 'work'.
I believe (and I'm not exactly a seasoned player... ) that WM/H has about 4 or 5 Tier A casters per book, most of which carry that much again distincly different possible highly competitive builds. I won't say it's the player, not the build because composition matters a lot - especially in a game in which you're basically expected to pull one more dirty trick than the other guy, which needs the right combos - but within the constraints of maintaining synergy within your builds there's going to be lots of wildly different builds to be played competitively - many of which play completely differently despite sharing perhaps half the models (especially if you magnetize your jacks. 2 'zerkers, 2 plastic kit one, 1 or 2 plastic kit 2, all magnetized? that's a lot of variation in the jacks you can deploy!) with many other builds in that list.

40K's system of having basic troop choices of which there's only a couple variations, usually all more or less alike, and requiring lots of those on the board, works against variety on the table.
It has its good points - MSU is fun for a lot of us, and after you learn about 10 or so possible stats you could be facing as troops models on the other side, you have the basics of the 'know your enemy' part of the game down.
WM/H? Good lord. You can play dozens of games and still have no clue as to how the opponent works you face next. There's just so much to memorize before you can really compete it can really divide casual from competitive players in a way no 40K player would ever see happening.
Give a casual 40K player a Tier A list to play and he'd probably not win, but at least be in the ball park, against a competitive player with a similar list.
WM/H however would see a player who can't anticipate what specific combo out of hundreds his opponent might pull get squished time and time again. It's more of a skill and experience based game in a lot of ways - and that doesn't necessarily have to be a good thing at all times

Stranger83 wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:

I find it hard to believe that when you are spending £500/600 to start a hobby (presuming you are starting from scratch) that you will pick one game over another because the total cost of a "complete" force would be £30/40 more than the other game - I just don't see that happening. What you would do is pick the game your friends play or the models/rules that appeal to you most over an extra 5% on your total cost surely?

An average 50 pts army for Wamahordes (the upper point tier that people usually play), will cost you around £250-300, it will not cost you £500-600.

Fully functional "armies" for both Infinity and Malifaux will come bellow £100.

I put £500/600 as I was presuming you would want some degree of flexability in the army – plus the cost of boards and terrain. If you want to price up a simple playable army I could (probably) make a 2000 point CSM army for £250/300, certainly less than £340 anyway – but of cause I’d have to take the same army every game and play on my carpet – a far more normal spend for someone new to the hobby is to double your army cost on terrain (based on nothing more than my own personal experiance), which might not be classed as part of the “army” but is certainly needed for the hobby.

As I posted a couple of posts ago I played a fully legal CSM army of 1500 points (a reasonable game size) that came to around £120.

Is that £120 including the cost of boards and terrain?

^- Arrow'd for truth.

EDIT: the one above, the one by Bolognesus.

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:

I find it hard to believe that when you are spending £500/600 to start a hobby (presuming you are starting from scratch) that you will pick one game over another because the total cost of a "complete" force would be £30/40 more than the other game - I just don't see that happening. What you would do is pick the game your friends play or the models/rules that appeal to you most over an extra 5% on your total cost surely?

An average 50 pts army for Wamahordes (the upper point tier that people usually play), will cost you around £250-300, it will not cost you £500-600.

Fully functional "armies" for both Infinity and Malifaux will come bellow £100.

I put £500/600 as I was presuming you would want some degree of flexability in the army – plus the cost of boards and terrain. If you want to price up a simple playable army I could (probably) make a 2000 point CSM army for £250/300, certainly less than £340 anyway – but of cause I’d have to take the same army every game and play on my carpet – a far more normal spend for someone new to the hobby is to double your army cost on terrain (based on nothing more than my own personal experiance), which might not be classed as part of the “army” but is certainly needed for the hobby.

As I posted a couple of posts ago I played a fully legal CSM army of 1500 points (a reasonable game size) that came to around £120.

Is that £120 including the cost of boards and terrain?

No, but then again neither is the army I have been posted to "compete" against, this is why I said it's a £500/600 in a much more standard "joining the hobby" cost, and that the simple cost of a playable army isn't the be all and end all of the hobby, but that is what I've been given to compete against and unless Warmachine can be played without a board or tarrain then it's only fair that that isn't included in the cost of the 40k army too. Incidentally I am heading home now - so should have my force ready in around 30-45 mins to show the comparative cost.

Stranger83 wrote:

No, but then again neither is the army I have been posted to "compete" against, this is why I said it's a £500/600 in a much more standard "joining the hobby" cost, and that the simple cost of a playable army isn't the be all and end all of the hobby, but that is what I've been given to compete against and unless Warmachine can be played without a board or tarrain then it's only fair that that isn't included in the cost of the 40k army too. Incidentally I am heading home now - so should have my force ready in around 30-45 mins to show the comparative cost.

That is a very incorrect assumption, I have been a part of the miniature war gaming hobby for close to 18 years and I've never owned a single piece of terrain... Guess I must have been doing it wrong...

Of course you don't have to play to this assumed standard of 2000 point games. 1 HQ and 2 troops is all you have to have, and when you're starting out that's more likely than dropping close to a grand on a Guard army, realm of battle and the entire paint set.

I know GW salesmen try and sell you that much - I sent my brother to buy me a chaos sorcerer to demonstrate it to him and they didn't fail. He said "I want a sorcerer lord for someone else" and they said "AOBR and a baneblade?".

GW priced me out their products about 2 years ago. Luckily, I'd bought about 8k worth of Orks which I'm almost finished painting. I was going to invest in a DE army, but just cannot justify to myself their stupidly high prices anymore. I've now turned to Piratebay for the new rulebook and Chaos Codex as I refuse to pay their prices. If they had kept their prices sensible, then I would have happily bought them (30 GBP for a Codex, seriously...........)

I did spend around 1k - 2k a year on GW, as did my 3 gaming buddies. Now its down to what I spend on paints and nothing else. So they've lost 4-5k's worth of business a year from me and my friends 2 years ago. I can't be on my own, and their solution to the problem seems to be to increase prices to counteract their lost sales and maintain profit levels.

In addittion, there is so much good stuff out there at the moment, for this hobby it really is a 'Golden Era'. We are now playing:

Firestorm Armada (Spartan Games). 30 GBP will get you a starter fleet, 100 will get you a really good fleet, 200 will buy you a really good fleet, rules book, campaign book, terrain and scenario ships like civilian vessels.
DUST Tactics (Fantasy Flight). So this one you can have the boxed game, 2 armies, all for under 60 GBP. This by far blows the socks off any other game I've played, and me and my friends love it. It is such a good game system I can't praise it enough. This is where most of my GW money has gone. It is extremely well supported and the same models will play DUST Warfare as well as Tactics.
Super Dungeon Explore (Sodapop). Not everyones cup of tea but again, 60 GBP buys you a boxed game with a decent amount of minis and the game is simple enough that newbies (and my Wife) love playing it, but in depth enough to keep veterans happy.
Sedition Wars (Studio Mc Vey). OK, so I invested about 300GBP in this but I'm getting +100 Mike Mc Vey models, a boxed game, and loads of other stuff. I can see Sedition Wars really expanding, can't wait to recieve it this month
Relic Knights (Sodapop). Again, a Kickstarter, but my 250GBP investment will bring in loads of diverse models and a box game. The rules are available on line now to download and play with existing models.
My final KS is now Kingdom Death which I can see being a very mature gamers game, but still, now the model count is +50 in the base game for $100 and is still expanding as the KS continues in its final days.

My point is, GW's competition in recent years has exploded. They are pushing veterans into different, better, and cheaper games systems (me and my friends being prime examples). The hobby is becoming unafordable for new entrants, Mummy & Daddy in these hard economic times can't afford to drop the money on it like they used to. There are so many better, cheaper alternatives out there its unreal, and GW seems to be on a path of doom. I can see in 5 years it becoming a primarily Mail Order business with a few flagship stores.

Thats my 50p worth anyway

 scarletsquig wrote:

Brother Gyoken wrote:


(Citation needed)

It's all there in the financial reports, GW has been posting healthy profit lately

While I don't necessarily disagree with some of your points I feel these need to be addressed. From last year to this year yes they posted a healthy profit considering they took a huge slump last year and made most of it up, but if you go back and look at data over time their revenue stream isn't even keeping up with inflation, and most of the *profit* increases in the last few years have been *cost cutting*, while revenue increases can be attributed in large part to price increases. Fundamentally what this means is that, at least for the last few years, GW position has been largely stagnant at best.

as a result of their increased margins and new "no-rumours" policy.

Keep in mind this comes from an address to shareholders, who largely are Hedge Funds, and GW executives. While the margins part is largely likely true (simply to mathematically explain a 9% increase in revenue after cranking up average prices by a similar amount), the 'no-rumors' part is...dubious at best.

I'm pretty price insensitive (within reason) on nearly all of my purchases. it's not that I'm a spendthrift, I just make a good living, and I'm willing to pay a little more for what I really want.

So, I wouldn't say that price is getting me out of the hobby.

What I would say is that the pricing is pricing me out of collecting armies that I'm not going to build, paint, and play. I've been in the wargaming hobby for just over 10 years, and I've collected plenty of armies. Eighth edition WFB killed the barely smouldering embers of my interested in fantasy, so I sold my (painted!) empire army. My interest in 40k was waning due to lack of time (I work 40-50 hours a week, have a girlfriend, and enjoy time with friends outside of gaming stores), and 6th edition was a pretty nasty shock. I haven't formally rage quit or anything, but in the last year or so I've sold a ~2000 points of tau, ~6000 points of Daemons, 3000 points of unpainted Marines, and 6000 points of painted Marines. All I have left is my massive IG army (my first and favorite 40k army), a smal Draigo wing, a huge, mostly 2nd edtion eldar army, and a nearly completely painted Ork battlewagon army that I started in late 5th edition...

I have also in the last sixth months began playing WM, and I'm enjoying collecting, building, painting, and playing something new. I don't care much about the price, what I like is the value. I could buy a $500 dark eldar army that will likely never see the light of day, or I could spend $500 and start a new game with a vibrant community at my FLGS.

I don't think I'm horribly unique among veterans, actually. I think that after a while, you either become fixated on whatever aspect of the hobby really intersts you. The only part that requires constant new purchases is tournament and competitive play (been there, found out I wasn't all that good, left). If you prefer campaigns, Apoc, modelling, or just beer and pretzels play, you can really get by with very little new purchases. And that's why GW doesn't cater to us. they aren't stupid. What percentage of people still in the hobby after five years have at least 1500 points of unpainted stuff in the closet? We all know guys with huge armies still in box!

So, the short answer to the question is: it's not going to price people out of the hobby. No one thing makes a person leave a hobby they've spent years and thousands of dollars on.

As for bringing in new people? I'm not a marketting expert. Even if anybody in this thread works in marketing, they don't have access to GW's internal figures. I have zero problem with complaining about prices (at least in the appropriate context). What does annoy me is the idea that somehow these prices are bad for GW. They might be, they might not. I'm sure GW has made a reasoned choice based on data and business expertise. Sure, at some point, GW will hit the point where they charge too much. But they haven't the last dozen times they've raised prices, so I'm going to wager that this isn't the time it will happen.

kb305 wrote:
considering i can buy new kits from online discounters for 35-50% off their website prices with free shipping, NO, i am far from priced out.

when i was a kid (in the 90s) forced to buy everything from the local GW store, i feel that was a much more massive rip off.

today because of online shopping, GW is dare i say, reasonably priced?

Please share some info on your online discounters with the rest of the thread as I'm sure they would appreciate finding out where they can order new stuff of their choice for 50% off.

PhantomViper wrote:


Ok, lets make an exercise then. I don't know if you are a tournament player or not, but this is the army that I took to our last WM tournament. Its fairly representative of a middle of the road army in terms of units. I went to Firestormgames and took the price of every unit:

eHaley £8.06
- Squire £5.36
- Stormclad £16.16
- Thunderhead £26.96
Stormblades £24.26
- Stormblades UA £9.86
Black 13th £8.96
Anastasia Di Bray £4.46
Gorman di Wulfe £4.46

Total: 35 pts £108.54

Could you please do the same to the army that you took to your last 1500 pts 40k tournament? I could do it myself, but I used to play IG in 5th ed 40k so the comparison wouldn't be fair in any way...

OK, I'm man enough to admit I was wrong, it apears that the 1500 point game I remember was infact only 1000 points, and that came to £122 for the models (everything below except the land raider and heldrake) but for the purpose of completeing the challenge here is my 1500 point army and it's total cost in pounds. – all Prices are based from buying the models at the time I post this direct from Darksphere.co.uk - running total in brackets after each unit


Tooled up Chaos Lord of Khorne £6.15

3 10 Man Marine Squad + Extra Gear (i.e marks weapon upgrades) £51.75 (£57.90)

Helbrute + gear – Little hard to price as you can’t buy alone but lets say £10 as that is a little over 1/5th of the DV box which considering there are other CSM stuff / all the DA stuff and the rulebook is probably over priced. (£67.90)

2 Rhinios £34 (£101.90)

5 Terminators + Gear £21 (£122.90)

Heldrake £37.75 (£160.65)

Land Raider + gear £37.75 (£198.40)

I will say that I could probably have made the total cost a little smaller if I had taken different fast attack/heavey support – but since I was already proven wrong in my assumption of cost I went for the "quick" answer.

I can see the point you made about spawns, and it’s a rule I don’t like. But you don’t really NEED one. It actually falls quite well into what I said about getting spending nearer £500, in a 1500 point force I might not have a spawn, but if I have a 3000 point force to choose from and switch stuff around between games then I probably would have 1 (though I suppose if I took it in the game I’d need 2 incase it’s still alive when/if the lord turns to spawn)

Obviously the above army is taking account of some pretty heavy discounting from GW standard retail price (25% off being the norm) but as I understand it the question was are GW prices so high that people are switching to other game systems – and anyone who has been in the hobby awhile would be getting these or similar discounts – it’s only new starters who pay the GW direct price – and they have nothing to compare it to.

So whilst I accept that a “standard” size force for 40k is twice the cost of a “standard” size force cost of Warmachine (the supposedly shining example of a cheap game) you have to remember that for that cost youi get a lot lot more plastic (which, weather you thing is good or bad does mean extra production costs).

I’d also like to say that, having now discovered more about what Warmachine/hordes and the other “GW cheap alternative games” are I think it’s a little unfair to compare them to Warhammer 40k – yes they are both wargames set in the future – but on a far different scale. It’s a little like complaining that your full English breakfast costs more than a couple of slices of toast. Now don’t get me wrong, sometimes I only want toast and sometimes I want a full English – but I wouldn’t dream of complaining that my full English costs more than my toast, even though they are both food that you eat for breakfast. Now if each individual component of my Full English cost a lot more than the toast I might complain and never buy it – but, to continue the analogy, here each component of my breakfast is cheaper than the cost of the toast, it’s only when I get it all together that it costs more.

OK, maybe not the greatest analogy in the world, but hopefully you see where I’m going with it - I know that might seem like I'm trying to flog a dead horse since I was wrong about the other stuff, but you should compare a spade with a spade.

Incidentally, some of the best games of 40k/Warhammer I’ve ever had were at 800 points, so you can quite easily enjoy GW games at under 1500 points, again I don’t know if you could drop skirmish games to the same level (after all at equivalent points it’s just be 1-2 models aside wouldn’t it?)

Perhaps what would be a better position for the hobby as a whole would be for the likes of Warmachine (and sorry to keep picking on Warmachine, I know there are plenty of alternatives out there – it’s just that that one is used a lot as the “much cheaper than GW” argument) to be the “entry” level game to the hobby and GW be a more “advanced” level due to it’s requirement for more stuff – this of cause would require the other companies to market to people who are not already involved in the hobby, something I have yet to see any of them do (though I suppose Kickstarter is helping here a little – many people look at Kickstarter and some of the largest ever have been mini games). Weather you like it or not GW stores are a form of marketing for GW, They look clean and wholesome (for the parents) and provide a sustainable hobby in the world of “quick fix” entertainment .If you’re walking past one and you’re the kind of person who might be interested (i.e. a geek) but has never seen wargaming before you’d probably go in, they also tend to be in central locations so that you would walk past one. Other companies only advertise on boards like this or wargaming magazines – and the 3rd party gaming stores tend (through a need for large space for gaming tables) to be in out of the way places that you would only find if you were looking for them, as a result you only find out these games exist AFTER you are in the hobby (i.e. you’ve had your GW phase)

I do think that if another company went after the “starter” audience in full force then the hobby would be in a better position, GW at the moment can charge what they like as they have no competition for the starter audience (though I still maintain that their prices arn’t THAT much higher than the competition) – start competing with them for that and things might change – it doesn’t have to be the full “store/hobby centre” thing that GW do, but adverts in (for example) computer game mags or (and I’ve never read one so I don’t know if they have them) comic books would be a good place to start. If you keep only going after GW castoffs then you are going to have trouble if GW ever price themselves out of the market (which nicely brings us back on topic at the end)

Humm, rambled on a little and got off topic – apologies about that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PhantomViper wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:

No, but then again neither is the army I have been posted to "compete" against, this is why I said it's a £500/600 in a much more standard "joining the hobby" cost, and that the simple cost of a playable army isn't the be all and end all of the hobby, but that is what I've been given to compete against and unless Warmachine can be played without a board or tarrain then it's only fair that that isn't included in the cost of the 40k army too. Incidentally I am heading home now - so should have my force ready in around 30-45 mins to show the comparative cost.

That is a very incorrect assumption, I have been a part of the miniature war gaming hobby for close to 18 years and I've never owned a single piece of terrain... Guess I must have been doing it wrong...

You don;t have to own it - but you do need to use it. therefore if you had to buy some for 40k would would also need to buy it for warmachine. The point is that they both need terrain so if you would need to buy for one you would need to buy for the other, therefore including it in the cost should either be for both armies or for neither.

Yes. It is too expensive. I play with my IG army of 10 years now, so I get my 40K in. I just won't buy any new stuff.

I spend my money on other games now... Blood Bowl,(second hand companies like Impact!) Malifaux, Infinity and boardgames.

GW gets a very small amount of my hobby money now thanks to their ridiculous price points required to start a new army... as much as I would love too.

I know my Tau army will be my last. 2 armies is enough. Im about to hit the "Maintenance Phase" where i stop buying things to bulk up an army and just buy them for fun or new shiny models.

I still don't think they are any more expensive as other wargames. I looked at warmachine the other day as some of their guys looked good for my vostroyans. The cost £35 for 12 plastic guys! Now I know GW is expensive but you do end up with a lot of spare bits and have a lot of extras to make your guys unique.

This is of course just my experience, I imagine warmahoards is cheaper in the US due to less shipping costs etc

I was priced out of the hobby since I started in 2000.

9 out of 10 of my hobby purchases since 2000 have been second hand.

Currently I have Blood Ravens, Deathwing & Eldar.

Theres no reason whatsoever for me to buy 5 plastic Deathwing Terminators for $50+ when I can easily get 10 metal Deathwing Terminators for around the same price.

The same goes for my Blood Ravens & Eldar.

Well I've left GW, but not finding Flames of War that much cheaper to be honest.

GW is still affordable if you stick to ebay and are prepared to "polish up" used minis.

Buying first hand though? Not a chance!

I was priced out two years ago. But like others it was not just the price that made me leave GW games. I took a break from 40k due to school and work and thought about getting back in for 6th, but due to the price and the prospect of having to get a flyer from forgeworld (former tau player) it was over for me. That and how long games where getting, the people in my area kept wanting to play bigger and bigger games and I did not have enough models, money or even spare time to keep up. Sad yes, I had a good run with 40k for a while. Time to move on and find something new. On the up side buy selling my 40k stuff I have purchased 3 infinity armies and some terrain. Less players for the game, up I love the minis, painting them, and we are trying to recruit more players.

I think that has to depend, to a great extent, upon what GW sees as its desired customer base. Clearly, they're not marketing the game to people who want to make a minimal investment, to say the least. I think they are marketing 40K and WFB as "elite" wargames, where the price point and army size requires a great deal of commitment to the game/hobby--both in terms of financial investment and in the time spent on modeling and painting your army.

I enjoy the modeling and painting process as part of the overall game experience. Part of what I pay for is the chance to model and paint the units I will put on the field. Granted, I have and still do my best to keep costs down (used models, salvaged parts, homemade conversion parts, etc.), but I stopped adding up what I'd spent on my Space Marines once I cracked $500 US. It wasn't relevant. I had decided to invest the time and money to build the army, and I believed (and still believe) that a year's worth of modeling, painting, and playing (once 6th dropped) totally justifies what I spent. At this point, my DIY Space Marine chapter is an emotional investment as well as an investment of time and effort.

I think that GW might be setting its price point a bit higher just to weed out people who are going to dabble and then drop the game. They want players who will spend months/years/decades on their army, because those are the kind of players who will not blink at the prices. There is a level for me on which it doesn't matter how much the hobby costs, so I would have to put myself into that group. But, I'm having fun doing it, so as long as it doesn't get in the way of paying for food and the electric bill, the cost is irrelevant.

So, as paradoxical as it sounds, I think they're pricing people into the hobby. It's basically the gaming equivalent of buying a luxury car.

 Kevin48220 wrote:
I think that has to depend, to a great extent, upon what GW sees as its desired customer base. Clearly, they're not marketing the game to people who want to make a minimal investment, to say the least. I think they are marketing 40K and WFB as "elite" wargames, where the price point and army size requires a great deal of commitment to the game/hobby--both in terms of financial investment and in the time spent on modeling and painting your army.

I enjoy the modeling and painting process as part of the overall game experience. Part of what I pay for is the chance to model and paint the units I will put on the field. Granted, I have and still do my best to keep costs down (used models, salvaged parts, homemade conversion parts, etc.), but I stopped adding up what I'd spent on my Space Marines once I cracked $500 US. It wasn't relevant. I had decided to invest the time and money to build the army, and I believed (and still believe) that a year's worth of modeling, painting, and playing (once 6th dropped) totally justifies what I spent. At this point, my DIY Space Marine chapter is an emotional investment as well as an investment of time and effort.

I think that GW might be setting its price point a bit higher just to weed out people who are going to dabble and then drop the game. They want players who will spend months/years/decades on their army, because those are the kind of players who will not blink at the prices. There is a level for me on which it doesn't matter how much the hobby costs, so I would have to put myself into that group. But, I'm having fun doing it, so as long as it doesn't get in the way of paying for food and the electric bill, the cost is irrelevant.

That is a beautiful sentiment, however is also one that is the complete opposite from the business model that myself and several other people right here on Dakka have heard from the mouth of GW employees...

Daston wrote:
I still don't think they are any more expensive as other wargames. I looked at warmachine the other day as some of their guys looked good for my vostroyans. The cost £35 for 12 plastic guys! Now I know GW is expensive but you do end up with a lot of spare bits and have a lot of extras to make your guys unique.

This is of course just my experience, I imagine warmahoards is cheaper in the US due to less shipping costs etc

Up until a certain point most of the metal models get made in the UK. Its the plastic ones, packaging and newer models as well as the books that get shipped over.

Not going to get into an argument over pricing, but I will say I tend to enjoy playing WM/H more and don't feel like I have to club together a large army in order to play.

If GW supported skirmish games more then that would be awesome, 40K In 40 Minutes/Combat Patrol was great but I haven't seen that much support for it from GW after 4th Ed.

Regardless I still wish to build a IG army when money permits, but I stopped buying GW about 5-6 years ago mainly because I don't like any of their current IG models and partially due to price. So I'm glad I managed to find models that I like for my IG, that are also metal and cost roughly £1 per model give or take. Also got a good officer model for 75p.

It pays to shop around.

That's unfortunate. Granted, my experience with all of this is much more limited (just over a year now). I suppose I haven't been around long enough to have seen as much of how GW does things as others have.

Either way, we're certainly all letting GW take advantage of whatever screw we have loose. I mean, seriously, we have to have a screw (or two) loose to have gotten into this...

Every price increase over inflation has caused GW to shed some existing/potential customers.

However, the rate of increase over inflation has to raise exponentialy due to the distribution of wealth.

Assuming an average wage of £25k PA.

About 60% of the population will be earning up to the average wage.

And less than 5% will be earning over £50K PA.

So as GW price them selves into ever higher income brackets they will have to radicaly increase prices just to maintain profits on ever diminishing start ups..

A sample wealth distribution.
up £12.5 K 25%
£12.5 to 25K 35%
£25k to £37.5 k 20%
£37.5k to £50k 15%
over £50k 5%

So competative marketing would give you 75% of the market affordability.
Currently GW are around the 40% of the market affordability...(Targeting those on above average earnings.)
Soon to drop to 20%....... then 5% of the market affordability.

With basic doubling and quadroupling of prices just to stand still....

EG Space Marine Tac Squad, would jump to £50 then £200!

Compared to Perry Minatures box of 40 fine quality multipose plastic minatures in 28mm for less than £20...GW plc pricing has been a bit excessive for a while.

 Kevin48220 wrote:
I think that GW might be setting its price point a bit higher just to weed out people who are going to dabble and then drop the game. They want players who will spend months/years/decades on their army, because those are the kind of players who will not blink at the prices. There is a level for me on which it doesn't matter how much the hobby costs, so I would have to put myself into that group. But, I'm having fun doing it, so as long as it doesn't get in the way of paying for food and the electric bill, the cost is irrelevant.

From conversations I have had with GW staff, this is not true. They want to sell starter boxes to as many 12-15 year olds as possible. If GW is lucky, the person will play a few games and then buy a unit that is actually OP (fliers currently) for an obnoxious price. 6 months later the person will loose interest or money and GW is on to the next person.

Well, that was my opinion of the matter, and I've already been corrected on that.

Again, it's unfortunate that GW stores seem to be pushing on new folks instead of developing a long-term player base.

I would have to say it has priced me out of the GW store and into FLGS during boxing week holidays in order to nab at ridiculous 50% off boxing week blow out sales. Which any enterprising, not myself as my morale compass points the good way, could just remove the stickers and trade back to a GW store for what they really want.

I havent bought directly from GW for the last few months or so, I never plan to do so again after June when they'll rise prices again.

The main problem is GW is just doing everything wrong for me. The new models look stupid, their new "fluff" is terrible, the gameplay is worse and dominated by overpowered Marines, their Stasi-esque secrecy and obnoxious marketing are frustrating, WD is gak, they treat their veteran fanbase terribly, and so on.

I've mainly stuck to BL as far as GW products go, but they've begun infecting that too...

Yeah I am in the boat too where I have been collecting / playing for over 20 years and I am enjoying the fact that I have a lot of older models to use with out having to start all over again but I have to admit GW is really taking advantage of the whole GW CRACK addiction.

PRICES, FINE CAST and SNAP TOGETHER models have really made me hesitant to buy anything more and just keep playing with vintage classic models. I really hate all these snap together models they have been doing it really makes it a pain to do conversions or just have different poses or swap parts with other models.

To answer the original poster's question; yes and no.

I moved from 40K to Flames of War this spring and haven't looked back. I did buy Dark Vengeance (from WarStore), opened it for the 6th edition rules, and put into storage. No 6th edition games yet played.

For me, its more that I already have everything I want and 6th edition (rules and models) has not called to me. 5th edition only needed a few tweaks IMO.

I haven't sold anything, but certainly haven't bought anything (other than DV) since spring.

Just a note - I love Flames of War. So happy to get into it. It's fun, and there are a number of 3rd party model providers, if you choose that route.

Mez

I for one have significantly dropped off my GW purchases since the 6th price hike. I just went back and started building/painting the old boxes I never got around to. Poor business practices and fanbase snubbing will most likely drive me towards another hobby. Ill let you know in the summer.

 Krellnus wrote:

 motyak wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
When I can build an entire IG army by buying 3rd party metal bitz from austrailia for only slightly more than buying a GW model in my hometown, something is wrong.

What?

Where is this wonderful place?

Indeed, do tell please.

Well, first of all, I suck at math, so I screwed up and misquoted the prices (I bought my bitz in lots and didn't realize how much I had spent, my bad) A plastic set in the US is still cheaper than buying Victoria Lamb minis (the ones I was referring to) but if you were to buy a full metal squad from GW, it would cost between 35 to 40 dollars ( http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1490651&prodId=prod1140077 ) for monopose, one piece miniatures, with or without shipping depending on how awesome your FLGS is.

Victoria lamb sells 10 man multipiece metal squads for 45$ ( http://victoriaminiatures.highwire.com/product/scout-complete-10-man-squad) and while the shipping is understandably a bit expensive for the US, I'm sure it would be a lot more reasonable in Austrailia. I'm not familiar with how much the plastic kits are in Austrailia, but you guys may well be able to buy a full squad of metal minis for cheaper than the GW plastic kits.

Either way, awesome minis. I've got a few highland guard put together on my desk right now and they look awesome. Sorry to get your hopes up for super cheap minis though. Like I said, I'm an idiot and lack of sleep doesn't help that. Going back to fix that now.