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Nucflash wrote:


Games Workshop, Fantasy/40k, LOTR, Hobbit etc.
- Rules that are a mess to play, you have to house rule and change them to make them work. Have to look through lots of books, and it still gets confusing LOLZ
- Cool LORE.. but when you get it on the battlefield it becomes Uncool and most of the time you are best off fielding the Cheapest thing in the codex and just spam it to win ( goes hand in hand with GWs policy of trying to sell you more stuff)
- Unbanced outdated codexes for example Vanilla marine cost 16 pts and has basic weapons, you can kit out gray knitghs cheaper with Force weapons lolz.. And the new dark Angels codex they Cost 14 pts.. and lets not get into what the Spacewolfs can field and use LOLZ....
- Latest 40k Ruleset is geard towards Shooting, leaving Nidz and many other close combat forces in the dust. But hey lets look at what codexes are coming this edition hmm.. TAU, Eldar and probably IPG.. so again it goes hand in hand with GWs scheems and Tricks.. feth I hate them...
- White dwarf magazine is a crappy Add thick piece of crap, that I would never spend my money on
- No offical forums, because they got so much hate on the one they had they shut it down.
- No offical Tournaments, I think this says it all! this company is not about making a balanced fun games to play, they are just about selling Miniatures..
- Are not keeping up with the Digital age at all...

I don't think you've actually played LOTR to make the judgement about the game. I have never had to houserule using the One Rulebook. You don't spam one unit because most armies only have a few units anyway (Gondor probably has the most) - you generally have standard guys, mounted standard guys and elite guys. For example, Khand has:
- Khandish Warriors (standard guys)
- Khandish Horsemen (mounted standard guys)
- Khandish Charioteers (elite standard guys)

And all armies are well-balanced (except Rohan, who are worse than the others, but even so they are a very good army).

I play Warmachine, 40k, Fantasy and LOTR and I must say that LOTR is the most tactical out of the lot of them. You can simulate real world tactics with the ruleset - guard your flanks with your cavalry, use phalanxes of warriors, you can't send your elites into battle alone, archery is not necessarily going to win you games, but it sure can help - it's very good. One mistake can change the tide of the battle. You forgot to call a heroic charge? That may have costed you the game as the Mumak tramples into your blocks of warriors. Your archers focused fire on the enemy's hero? That may have cost you the game as well. It's simple as well, but not overly simple either. Once your men start fleeing, they flee permanently - they won't come back, they're gone for good. You have to think so tactically about the battle. No army is left behind either. All the army books were released at once.

Last time I checked, No Quarter was no better than WD. I own both of the latest issues and I must say that there is very little difference between them. They both advertise like hell. The only real difference is that NQ is cheaper, is released bi-monthly and has fewer pages. I think the Throne of Skulls in Warhammer World is still going on, and that's officially supported. But I see your point.

In a few years, what will WM be like? Once their sales start to plateau, what next?

PhantomViper wrote:

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:

 Boggy Man wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
[ And yet you still do not see the fact it is (as HBMC so eloquently put to someone else) your favourite kind of food. The red herring.

Wargaming miniature prices should be compared to other wargaming miniature prices. Nothing else.

And yet so far in this thread I've seen GW minis compared to;
*Motorcycle helmets
*A high-end gaming computers
*Ski equipment
*World travel

Have you ever compared FW guard vehicles to collecting actual vintage tanks? Warhammer's mega cheap yo!

Compared to other hobbies GW isn't that expensive. I think that's what the people mean.

Which constitutes a Red Herring because people aren't interested in other hobbies, only in the tabletop wargaming hobby (considering that this is a tabletop wargaming forum), so couldn't care less what other hypothetical hobbies cost. I think that is what the other people mean.

And that if the game was fun you would buy it. It feels better in the soul maybe to say hmm it's gotten way to expencive to keep playing. When the real Reason, that we are avoiding here, is that the GAME REALY SUCKS and is not fun to play anymore? Because that is the main reason I personaly dont play anymore. Also Warmachine/hordes is less expensive in the long run Because you ONLY NEEED one army, because they update them regulary compared to GW. Most of my old 40k/fantasy buddies have lots of armies so they can pull out the one that is up to date. Another sick practice that we have let Games workshop get away with over the years. Lets face it people we have been screwed over by GW on so many levels over the years that its really time we stoped taking their gak.

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:

Nucflash wrote:


Games Workshop, Fantasy/40k, LOTR, Hobbit etc.
- Rules that are a mess to play, you have to house rule and change them to make them work. Have to look through lots of books, and it still gets confusing LOLZ
- Cool LORE.. but when you get it on the battlefield it becomes Uncool and most of the time you are best off fielding the Cheapest thing in the codex and just spam it to win ( goes hand in hand with GWs policy of trying to sell you more stuff)
- Unbanced outdated codexes for example Vanilla marine cost 16 pts and has basic weapons, you can kit out gray knitghs cheaper with Force weapons lolz.. And the new dark Angels codex they Cost 14 pts.. and lets not get into what the Spacewolfs can field and use LOLZ....
- Latest 40k Ruleset is geard towards Shooting, leaving Nidz and many other close combat forces in the dust. But hey lets look at what codexes are coming this edition hmm.. TAU, Eldar and probably IPG.. so again it goes hand in hand with GWs scheems and Tricks.. feth I hate them...
- White dwarf magazine is a crappy Add thick piece of crap, that I would never spend my money on
- No offical forums, because they got so much hate on the one they had they shut it down.
- No offical Tournaments, I think this says it all! this company is not about making a balanced fun games to play, they are just about selling Miniatures..
- Are not keeping up with the Digital age at all...

I don't think you've actually played LOTR to make the judgement about the game. I have never had to houserule using the One Rulebook. You don't spam one unit because most armies only have a few units anyway (Gondor probably has the most) - you generally have standard guys, mounted standard guys and elite guys. For example, Khand has:
- Khandish Warriors (standard guys)
- Khandish Horsemen (mounted standard guys)
- Khandish Charioteers (elite standard guys)

And all armies are well-balanced (except Rohan, who are worse than the others, but even so they are a very good army).

I play Warmachine, 40k, Fantasy and LOTR and I must say that LOTR is the most tactical out of the lot of them. You can simulate real world tactics with the ruleset - guard your flanks with your cavalry, use phalanxes of warriors, you can't send your elites into battle alone, archery is not necessarily going to win you games, but it sure can help - it's very good. One mistake can change the tide of the battle. You forgot to call a heroic charge? That may have costed you the game as the Mumak tramples into your blocks of warriors. Your archers focused fire on the enemy's hero? That may have cost you the game as well. It's simple as well, but not overly simple either. Once your men start fleeing, they flee permanently - they won't come back, they're gone for good. You have to think so tactically about the battle. No army is left behind either. All the army books were released at once.

Last time I checked, No Quarter was no better than WD. I own both of the latest issues and I must say that there is very little difference between them. They both advertise like hell. The only real difference is that NQ is cheaper, is released bi-monthly and has fewer pages. I think the Throne of Skulls in Warhammer World is still going on, and that's officially supported. But I see your point.

In a few years, what will WM be like? Once their sales start to plateau, what next?

LOTR IS different. Its statlines do not fit the normal GW mould of WS, BS, etc. so it will play extremely different. It's just not a lot of people saw this as LOTR players seemed to be divided into two distinct groups. The hordes of belligerent children inhabiting the local GW and the adults that played at home and were thus not visible.

So LOTR some kind of rep as the "kiddy game". At least round here anyway...


As for NQ. Of course the whole magazine is an ad. It's the company magazine FFS! However, how it differs from WD is many of those adverts are actually articles laden with content, something which WD lacks. To say they're the no better than on another is just objectively false.

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:

Nucflash wrote:


Games Workshop, Fantasy/40k, LOTR, Hobbit etc.
- Rules that are a mess to play, you have to house rule and change them to make them work. Have to look through lots of books, and it still gets confusing LOLZ
- Cool LORE.. but when you get it on the battlefield it becomes Uncool and most of the time you are best off fielding the Cheapest thing in the codex and just spam it to win ( goes hand in hand with GWs policy of trying to sell you more stuff)
- Unbanced outdated codexes for example Vanilla marine cost 16 pts and has basic weapons, you can kit out gray knitghs cheaper with Force weapons lolz.. And the new dark Angels codex they Cost 14 pts.. and lets not get into what the Spacewolfs can field and use LOLZ....
- Latest 40k Ruleset is geard towards Shooting, leaving Nidz and many other close combat forces in the dust. But hey lets look at what codexes are coming this edition hmm.. TAU, Eldar and probably IPG.. so again it goes hand in hand with GWs scheems and Tricks.. feth I hate them...
- White dwarf magazine is a crappy Add thick piece of crap, that I would never spend my money on
- No offical forums, because they got so much hate on the one they had they shut it down.
- No offical Tournaments, I think this says it all! this company is not about making a balanced fun games to play, they are just about selling Miniatures..
- Are not keeping up with the Digital age at all...

I don't think you've actually played LOTR to make the judgement about the game. I have never had to houserule using the One Rulebook. You don't spam one unit because most armies only have a few units anyway (Gondor probably has the most) - you generally have standard guys, mounted standard guys and elite guys. For example, Khand has:
- Khandish Warriors (standard guys)
- Khandish Horsemen (mounted standard guys)
- Khandish Charioteers (elite standard guys)

And all armies are well-balanced (except Rohan, who are worse than the others, but even so they are a very good army).

I play Warmachine, 40k, Fantasy and LOTR and I must say that LOTR is the most tactical out of the lot of them. You can simulate real world tactics with the ruleset - guard your flanks with your cavalry, use phalanxes of warriors, you can't send your elites into battle alone, archery is not necessarily going to win you games, but it sure can help - it's very good. One mistake can change the tide of the battle. You forgot to call a heroic charge? That may have costed you the game as the Mumak tramples into your blocks of warriors. Your archers focused fire on the enemy's hero? That may have cost you the game as well. It's simple as well, but not overly simple either. Once your men start fleeing, they flee permanently - they won't come back, they're gone for good. You have to think so tactically about the battle. No army is left behind either. All the army books were released at once.

Last time I checked, No Quarter was no better than WD. I own both of the latest issues and I must say that there is very little difference between them. They both advertise like hell. The only real difference is that NQ is cheaper, is released bi-monthly and has fewer pages. I think the Throne of Skulls in Warhammer World is still going on, and that's officially supported. But I see your point.

In a few years, what will WM be like? Once their sales start to plateau, what next?

You are correct never played LOTRO.. just threw it in there at the top, because GW makes it. But this is hard facts when people here in sweden talk about GW, its either Fantasy/40k the two other games are seen just like a gimic, nobody I know play them. And I have to take your word on it, that its tactical. But I personaly don't play video games based off Films, because they often have a low standard, and I must say I regard Table top games based of films the same way and that has made me stay away from LOTRO (dont really like the lore either to be honest). But the flagship games of GW are fantasy/40k and they are broken unblanced and not worth playing to be honest. Also every Former 40k/fantasy player that I have gotten to give Warmachine/hordes a decent chans, gone into it with an open mind have converted. And I'm talking about people who have played GW games for decades here. It's hands down a superior product. Sadly the models are not as well made as GWs, and GW still has the edge there. But as I have said before most people hate painting and just want to play and it is easier to get a decent looking Warmachine/hordes army (models are a bit bigger, more clear easly drybrushable areas, nicer looking bases) then it is to get a good looking GW army... And in the end for most people its about playing a game not painting models. Privateer press have understood this, GW is still living in the 1980s.. and their company is going to suffer for this if they dont do something about it soon..

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:


Last time I checked, No Quarter was no better than WD. I own both of the latest issues and I must say that there is very little difference between them. They both advertise like hell. The only real difference is that NQ is cheaper, is released bi-monthly and has fewer pages. I think the Throne of Skulls in Warhammer World is still going on, and that's officially supported. But I see your point.

You have got to be kidding? Right? did you miss a /sarcasm tag after this part of your post?

Looking at the latest NQ that I own (45), you have:

- A custom scenario and units for WMH hordes;
- Complete OFICIAL rules for upcoming models for WMH;
- Extra rules and supplements for the IK RPG;
- Original fluff that you can't get anywhere else;
- A complete tutorial on how to make smoke columns;
- A tutorial on how to make a gaming table.

Please tell me where are you seeing this type of content anywhere in the current crop of WDs?

PhantomViper wrote:

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:


Last time I checked, No Quarter was no better than WD. I own both of the latest issues and I must say that there is very little difference between them. They both advertise like hell. The only real difference is that NQ is cheaper, is released bi-monthly and has fewer pages. I think the Throne of Skulls in Warhammer World is still going on, and that's officially supported. But I see your point.

You have got to be kidding? Right? did you miss a /sarcasm tag after this part of your post?

Looking at the latest NQ that I own (45), you have:

- A custom scenario and units for WMH hordes;
- Complete OFICIAL rules for upcoming models for WMH;
- Extra rules and supplements for the IK RPG;
- Original fluff that you can't get anywhere else;
- A complete tutorial on how to make smoke columns;
- A tutorial on how to make a gaming table.

Please tell me where are you seeing this type of content anywhere in the current crop of WDs?

ExNoctemNacimur Just convert over to Warmachine/hordes.. GW is like a bandaid you just have to Rip it off fast and be rid of it. In the long run you wont regreat your decision, I have personaly Converted over 15 people, people I know and strangers and people have come up to me thanking me that I helped them see the light. So please get into the 21st centuary.. Rules made 2010 and core rules that were started in the 1980s (when rouge trader first came out) cant be compared. It's like comparing a car from the 1940s with a modern one. The 1940s car might look cool on the outside, nice design, classic etc.. but when you drive it you soon understand you miss all the comforts of a modern car...

As I said, I play WM/H (Circle FTW) and the 3 main GW games. In terms of preference, it goes something like:
1: LOTR (with Mordor, Easterlings, Harad and Arnor)
2: Fantasy (with Wood Elves)
3: WM/H (with Circle, maybe starting Menoth because knights are cool)
4: 40k (with CSM and Soon Dark Eldar)

Yes, I prefer Fantasy over WM. To me, balance doesn't really matter (unless it's clear that one faction is far better than the others). As long as I enjoy myself, I'm not bothered. It looks like they're gradually fixing Fantasy.

I like LOTR not only for the rules but for the aesthetic. Similarly, I like Fantasy for the aesthetic. I generally prefer hardcore high fantasy/sword and sorcery over steampunk and sci-fi. But also the ranks of warriors look very nice. WM doesn't scratch my itch for a game. 40k I play for the miniatures.

No, I'm not seeing that anywhere in NQ, but I still prefer WD. I read through my NQ issues in about two hours whilst the WD keeps me going for two and a half (not much better, but better). For the price, NQ is better, and there is a lot more stuff, but a lot of the stuff I don't really care about - I don't care about rules and supplements for IK RPG. WIth WD at least I know that one game that I play will be referenced.

IMHO when you factor in the hours of enjoyment painting and playing. The overall cost is fair. I personally compare it to a good dinner out your going to spend a 100 dollars easy and its gone. the games last as long as you play. For the younger crowd it means slowly builing a force over time and smaller games up front. I play 40k and fantasy but also play warmachine etc. I find I enjoy games workshop games much more just for the scale and seeing whole armies deployed. I will add also that as hobbies go its cheap. Like anyone I hope they dont go to crazy with prices and I am sure at some point it hurts there business. Anyway to each there own as long as your having fun:}

Having played and collected GW game and miniatures for years I never really let the cost get to me, its like buying a Hummer and crying every time you put gas in it; you know what your getting into. But recently I have spun down on my hobby spending in general because of its increasing cost. As a hobby its not my first financial decision of the month when figuring out bills, I have no "hobby budget" per-say, its my extra income.

On top of being a gamer I'm also a hobbyist for instance I will buy really cool looking models just for the sake of painting and the enjoyment of painting them (usually this will grow into an army at a much later date). But recently I've stopped buying the extra kits for enjoyment and only focus on what I need to army build. With the upcoming WOC release I would of jumped on "One of each please" from my local shop, but when I called my order in it was "...hmm, book and Chariot only please." I have to read the rules before I decide I want to sink $85.00 into this months cool large kit and see if I'll USE it and not just enjoy it.

So as a gamer they have not topped me out YET, but as a hobbyist yes, they have hit that magic number.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Kirby spoke of the 'price elasticity' the customer base would endure, basically saying 'these people can stand pricing abuse', elasticity has limits and many have already snapped.

Very true. I do all my shopping online, and even at the typical 20% (or higher) discount Im starting to cringe at the prices. Once I get my new army finished it will likely be about the last money GW sees from me. Even the singles like the new plastic hero/HQ minis coming out are getting past the "impulse buy" level of cost.

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:

I don't think you've actually played LOTR to make the judgement about the game. I have never had to houserule using the One Rulebook. You don't spam one unit because most armies only have a few units anyway (Gondor probably has the most) - you generally have standard guys, mounted standard guys and elite guys. For example, Khand has:
- Khandish Warriors (standard guys)
- Khandish Horsemen (mounted standard guys)
- Khandish Charioteers (elite standard guys)

And all armies are well-balanced (except Rohan, who are worse than the others, but even so they are a very good army).

LOTR is a good ruleset. However, it does have its flaws. For example, there are not adequate rules to govern setting up your army. I have not seen the most recent revision of points costs, but in the previous books, the armies were not balanced. Grey Co. was very strong, as they could take all archers.

warhammernut wrote:
IMHO when you factor in the hours of enjoyment painting and playing. The overall cost is fair. I personally compare it to a good dinner out your going to spend a 100 dollars easy and its gone. the games last as long as you play. For the younger crowd it means slowly builing a force over time and smaller games up front. I play 40k and fantasy but also play warmachine etc. I find I enjoy games workshop games much more just for the scale and seeing whole armies deployed. I will add also that as hobbies go its cheap. Like anyone I hope they dont go to crazy with prices and I am sure at some point it hurts there business. Anyway to each there own as long as your having fun:}

When I go out for a meal, and spent 100 pounds. I can normally expect a night of adult entertainment.
If I spend 100 pounds on GW models, I normally get a month of the silent treatment.
Some things are worth the money, some arn't. GW currently isn't.

Nucflash wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:


Last time I checked, No Quarter was no better than WD. I own both of the latest issues and I must say that there is very little difference between them. They both advertise like hell. The only real difference is that NQ is cheaper, is released bi-monthly and has fewer pages. I think the Throne of Skulls in Warhammer World is still going on, and that's officially supported. But I see your point.

You have got to be kidding? Right? did you miss a /sarcasm tag after this part of your post?

Looking at the latest NQ that I own (45), you have:

- A custom scenario and units for WMH hordes;
- Complete OFICIAL rules for upcoming models for WMH;
- Extra rules and supplements for the IK RPG;
- Original fluff that you can't get anywhere else;
- A complete tutorial on how to make smoke columns;
- A tutorial on how to make a gaming table.

Please tell me where are you seeing this type of content anywhere in the current crop of WDs?

ExNoctemNacimur Just convert over to Warmachine/hordes.. GW is like a bandaid you just have to Rip it off fast and be rid of it. In the long run you wont regreat your decision, I have personaly Converted over 15 people, people I know and strangers and people have come up to me thanking me that I helped them see the light. So please get into the 21st centuary.. Rules made 2010 and core rules that were started in the 1980s (when rouge trader first came out) cant be compared. It's like comparing a car from the 1940s with a modern one. The 1940s car might look cool on the outside, nice design, classic etc.. but when you drive it you soon understand you miss all the comforts of a modern car...

I wanna start Minions (I like the hordes armies more, and its really neat the two can cross over into eachother's game)

 Rainbow Dash wrote:

Nucflash wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:


Last time I checked, No Quarter was no better than WD. I own both of the latest issues and I must say that there is very little difference between them. They both advertise like hell. The only real difference is that NQ is cheaper, is released bi-monthly and has fewer pages. I think the Throne of Skulls in Warhammer World is still going on, and that's officially supported. But I see your point.

You have got to be kidding? Right? did you miss a /sarcasm tag after this part of your post?

Looking at the latest NQ that I own (45), you have:

- A custom scenario and units for WMH hordes;
- Complete OFICIAL rules for upcoming models for WMH;
- Extra rules and supplements for the IK RPG;
- Original fluff that you can't get anywhere else;
- A complete tutorial on how to make smoke columns;
- A tutorial on how to make a gaming table.

Please tell me where are you seeing this type of content anywhere in the current crop of WDs?

ExNoctemNacimur Just convert over to Warmachine/hordes.. GW is like a bandaid you just have to Rip it off fast and be rid of it. In the long run you wont regreat your decision, I have personaly Converted over 15 people, people I know and strangers and people have come up to me thanking me that I helped them see the light. So please get into the 21st centuary.. Rules made 2010 and core rules that were started in the 1980s (when rouge trader first came out) cant be compared. It's like comparing a car from the 1940s with a modern one. The 1940s car might look cool on the outside, nice design, classic etc.. but when you drive it you soon understand you miss all the comforts of a modern car...

I wanna start Minions (I like the hordes armies more, and its really neat the two can cross over into eachother's game)

Do it. What not to like? Anthropomorphic Voodoo Gators and Mad science pigmen with a special rule called "bacon".

We all know bacon makes everything better...

 spaceelf wrote:

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:

I don't think you've actually played LOTR to make the judgement about the game. I have never had to houserule using the One Rulebook. You don't spam one unit because most armies only have a few units anyway (Gondor probably has the most) - you generally have standard guys, mounted standard guys and elite guys. For example, Khand has:
- Khandish Warriors (standard guys)
- Khandish Horsemen (mounted standard guys)
- Khandish Charioteers (elite standard guys)

And all armies are well-balanced (except Rohan, who are worse than the others, but even so they are a very good army).

LOTR is a good ruleset. However, it does have its flaws. For example, there are not adequate rules to govern setting up your army. I have not seen the most recent revision of points costs, but in the previous books, the armies were not balanced. Grey Co. was very strong, as they could take all archers.

Grey Company wasn't that strong. Sure, before the enemy closes you're fine, but when they get into close combat, and your army starts dying due to low Defence, you start shouting expletives that aren't designed for children. I know, I played them! Each army had its own clear advantages and disadvantages. For example, for the Easterlings, they have high defence and have pikes but this also means that they're expensive and get trapped easily. For Harad, they're small in number and can swarm the enemy but with very little else (apart from the Mumak). Etc.

 spaceelf wrote:

LOTR is a good ruleset. However, it does have its flaws. For example, there are not adequate rules to govern setting up your army. I have not seen the most recent revision of points costs, but in the previous books, the armies were not balanced. Grey Co. was very strong, as they could take all archers.

Truth be said I've only heard good things about the original LOTR rules. I never tried it personally because the setting never interested me, but if even the historical gaming guys said it was good, then it must be really good!

P.S.- The same can be said about the Warmaster rules.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Rainbow Dash wrote:

Nucflash wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:


Last time I checked, No Quarter was no better than WD. I own both of the latest issues and I must say that there is very little difference between them. They both advertise like hell. The only real difference is that NQ is cheaper, is released bi-monthly and has fewer pages. I think the Throne of Skulls in Warhammer World is still going on, and that's officially supported. But I see your point.

You have got to be kidding? Right? did you miss a /sarcasm tag after this part of your post?

Looking at the latest NQ that I own (45), you have:

- A custom scenario and units for WMH hordes;
- Complete OFICIAL rules for upcoming models for WMH;
- Extra rules and supplements for the IK RPG;
- Original fluff that you can't get anywhere else;
- A complete tutorial on how to make smoke columns;
- A tutorial on how to make a gaming table.

Please tell me where are you seeing this type of content anywhere in the current crop of WDs?

ExNoctemNacimur Just convert over to Warmachine/hordes.. GW is like a bandaid you just have to Rip it off fast and be rid of it. In the long run you wont regreat your decision, I have personaly Converted over 15 people, people I know and strangers and people have come up to me thanking me that I helped them see the light. So please get into the 21st centuary.. Rules made 2010 and core rules that were started in the 1980s (when rouge trader first came out) cant be compared. It's like comparing a car from the 1940s with a modern one. The 1940s car might look cool on the outside, nice design, classic etc.. but when you drive it you soon understand you miss all the comforts of a modern car...

I wanna start Minions (I like the hordes armies more, and its really neat the two can cross over into eachother's game)

Do it. What not to like? Anthropomorphic Voodoo Gators and Mad science pigmen with a special rule called "bacon".

We all know bacon makes everything better...

also have some trollbloods that I think I will hang on to, they're less hilarious but good models none the less

 azreal13 wrote:

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
I read somewhere that in the 70s (I wasn't there, so I wouldn't know) a wargaming ruleset could cost 1.50 pounds? What the hell happened?

I can't say for sure, I only existed from the beginning of 1978! But I can say that during the eighties you could by a full price video game for 8 pounds and the likes of Codemasters specialised in making budget games for less than 3.

Not a fair comparison though, as, like video games, a modern, high profile war game is a massively more sophisticated affair.

Just wanted to point out that, at least as regards the last twenty (20) years, this is wrong: video games have in fact gotten cheaper, not more expensive.



In 1993, Super Mario Kart (for the Super Nintendo) $54.99, in 2008 Mario Kart Wii, $39.99(!).

Twenty years ago we paid about the same number of dollars for a video game as we do now... which means that adjusting for inflation, we now pay way, way less.

 Kingsley wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:
( and its getting silly the debates claiming plastic is superior, if you dont know the difference in detail buy a pair of glasses)

Plastic is superior for gaming peices. It's lighter and the material is easier to work with concerning contruction and conversions. Metal/resin is better for display peices, due to holding better detail, but has it's own drawbacks (metal is heavier making bulk transport harder, requires pinning, is harder to convert, resin is more brittle and easily damaged).

Yeah. The detail on a standard plastic piece is perfectly sufficient, especially at tabletop distances, and the ability to convert and pose your models makes them advantageous for normal units. Metal or resin can in some cases be preferable for characters, especially special characters, but even then I honestly prefer plastic.

Detail can be sufficient to you but it's inferior to metal... It's ok for maybe boardgames or other games but wargaming does (or did) pride by having the best detailed minis ( thats WHY we paint them, because they have detail in it)... converting your armies is also not the main thing about wargaming its an extra ( and this comes from someone who actually sculpts for companies and converts like hell)... the basic idea is to buy that perfect mini and you like it so much that there's no need to convert anything, just paint it. Going to smaller scales like 15mm troops, plastic is bad on most cases and does not hold half the detail metal does.... You can say at the distance all is good and I reply thats not an argument and thats not the point of wargaming miniatures.
You can also say you prefer plastic because its lighter, easier to convert if converting is your thing etc and that's legit and I respect that but saying its superior to metal its, sorry... ridiculous. I'ts pretty much commenting the quality of a racing car by looking at the stickers in it... it's part of the car but it's not the main or most important thing. Miniatures quality has always been about the detail first.

It is wrong to take only GW's examples of plastic minis as an example of what's possible.

Plastic (of the right sort) is entirely capable of taking as much detail as metal. Downside is you're not allowed undercuts, so you need either very clever mould making, or to design with that in mind.

GW's plastic production isn't the best in the world. It is, in my opinion merely objectively 'OK' to 'Good'. Some is actually from a technical standpoint pretty piss-poor.

In particular here I'm thinking of some 1/48 Italeri ground crew I used a while back. Extremely nice sculpts and cleverly arranged for moulding.

Perry's WotR plastics are also superbly arranged. No 'flats' as are common on GW designs. CMoN/McVey's Sedition Wars miniatures although in a slightly odd material (PVC) are also really quite well detailed.

Plastic has a design disadvantage over anything that can be cast in a soft mould, but the actual detail retension is a factor of the precise material used and the sophistication of the mouldmaking process.

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:

Grey Company wasn't that strong. Sure, before the enemy closes you're fine, but when they get into close combat, and your army starts dying due to low Defence, you start shouting expletives that aren't designed for children. I know, I played them! Each army had its own clear advantages and disadvantages. For example, for the Easterlings, they have high defence and have pikes but this also means that they're expensive and get trapped easily. For Harad, they're small in number and can swarm the enemy but with very little else (apart from the Mumak). Etc.

If I recall correctly, Grey Co. had higher fight than most other troops. All you had to do was roll equal or greater than your opponent and you would win combat, and thus not be hurt. By the time the enemy closed with your force, you would likely outnumber them thanks to shooting. Thus you would be rolling more dice, making the odds of rolling equal to or higher even greater. Grey Co. were very strong. Further they had lots of pseudo characters with might, to help them win combats. Armies like Harad were second tier. They could not swarm as well as goblins or hobbits.

In terms of the rules, there is no system of deployment. Although there are deployment zones, it does not say whether you or your opponent should set up first, deploy model by model, etc. It keeps the system from being truly great.

To get back on topic, despite having lots of LOTR minis, I did not buy the updated rules, or the new Hobbit releases because of the cost. My most recent purchases have been Heavy Gear and Infinity. I think that my next game will be Brushfire.

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:




Last time I checked, No Quarter was no better than WD. I own both of the latest issues and I must say that there is very little difference between them. They both advertise like hell. The only real difference is that NQ is cheaper, is released bi-monthly and has fewer pages. I think the Throne of Skulls in Warhammer World is still going on, and that's officially supported. But I see your point.

In a few years, what will WM be like? Once their sales start to plateau, what next?

If you dont notice any difference between NQ and WD, then I question your reading/comprehension ability. Because NQ has advanced models previews, WITH rules that you can proxy out long before the actual book hits. And has actual varient tier lists printed as well. Further rules in advance of release in the RPG releases.

Much better then WD, which no longer does that in advance in many years.

WD does have rules but after they are sold out there is no way to get any of them again
good luck playing sisters or having rules for that flier
trolololo

carmachu wrote:

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:




Last time I checked, No Quarter was no better than WD. I own both of the latest issues and I must say that there is very little difference between them. They both advertise like hell. The only real difference is that NQ is cheaper, is released bi-monthly and has fewer pages. I think the Throne of Skulls in Warhammer World is still going on, and that's officially supported. But I see your point.

In a few years, what will WM be like? Once their sales start to plateau, what next?

If you dont notice any difference between NQ and WD, then I question your reading/comprehension ability. Because NQ has advanced models previews, WITH rules that you can proxy out long before the actual book hits. And has actual varient tier lists printed as well. Further rules in advance of release in the RPG releases.

Much better then WD, which no longer does that in advance in many years.

He's already got an answer for that:

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:

No, I'm not seeing that anywhere in NQ, but I still prefer WD. I read through my NQ issues in about two hours whilst the WD keeps me going for two and a half (not much better, but better). For the price, NQ is better, and there is a lot more stuff, but a lot of the stuff I don't really care about - I don't care about rules and supplements for IK RPG. WIth WD at least I know that one game that I play will be referenced.

See the old irrelevant argument of "The content within is not something I'm interested in, therefore no content." It does not change the fact the mag is full of content and PP tell you well in advance what is in said issue, so you can choose to skip it if the content does not interest you.

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
WD does have rules but after they are sold out there is no way to get any of them again
good luck playing sisters or having rules for that flier
trolololo

The internet helped me get my flyer rules.

THE INTERNET HELPS ALL

Asked the local gaming group what they think.

Doesn't seem to be as a big of an issue here.
[img=http://s14.postimage.org/qpxfazr19/GW_price_increase.jpg]

 Deunstephe wrote:

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
WD does have rules but after they are sold out there is no way to get any of them again
good luck playing sisters or having rules for that flier
trolololo

The internet helped me get my flyer rules.

THE INTERNET HELPS ALL

true but by legal means there is no way
illegal means? well to hell with GW you never have to buy a codex or rulebook again!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Amaya wrote:
Asked the local gaming group what they think.

Doesn't seem to be as a big of an issue here.
[img=http://s14.postimage.org/qpxfazr19/GW_price_increase.jpg]

Prices are relative if you think you are getting a good value for what you are buying. I didn't buy an xbox 360 when it came out because I didn't think it was worth 600 dollars to me, I don't think The Hobbit starter set is worth 150 dollars to me.
it is for some, so they buy it, but not to me, so I don't buy it, if it was cheaper OR if GW actually had good support and gave a crap like they once did then I'd be more inclined
It was never about the money, it was about the model's worth to me!

I dislike the games so why should I pay full price for things I want to paint and sit atop a shelf?
those folks are still content with the game, and all power to them, I'm not-I don't feel my money goes far enough
I don't feel like blindly accepting GW's price increase along with decrease in quality, content and everything else. Its not just buying miniatures, if it was, so many other companies do that too, for cheaper, and have more options...
I wanted a half decent game to go along with all this crap I have to buy (like the rules) but no all I feel I get is Matt Ward taking a crap on a game I loved as a child.
I loved what they used to do, and do adore many of their models (most are OOP) but at the end of the day, after I come home from work, and think about if I want to buy that starter set, I want to look at it, when I bring it home, and know I didn't just waste however long it took me to earn that 150 or whatever it costs. It puts a new spin on things when you look at something and say to yourself, "my god it took me 16 hours of work to pay for this pile of crap, what was I thinking?!"

I think there are three types of people: People who pay for the hobby, people who pay for the hobby, the game and the game's aspects, and people who pay for game. For the players, many aren't just being priced out, they're being ruled out. Since they want to PLAY the game, they don't want to wait around for extra cash to build up their armies, so they switch to something else that's cheaper and more fun. When the rules just start getting unfair (GK, I'm looking at you!), they just give up and sell their old minis (or keep them for old time's sake). For the hobbyists, some are being priced out and just go to another game so they can keep the hobby. Others don't care and keep paying because they can take however long they want to make and paint something. Most also wind up having piles of bits to slap something together and keep them going while getting extra money to buy models. For the hobbyists who want the aspects and gameplay, once one part starts decreasing in quality, so do the others. For example someone who wants to play SoB because they're fun models with what was a cool background will decide not to because, thanks to Matt Ward turning them into a group of sissies instead of the battle-hardened fanatical space nuns they were, they don't want to waste their money on something that'll be considered weakling runts.

In retrospect, if you want to pay for the game and it's story it's probably outpriced, but if you're just paying for something that'll keep you occupied for a while then it's not.

help please wrote:


When I go out for a meal, and spent 100 pounds. I can normally expect a night of adult entertainment.
If I spend 100 pounds on GW models, I normally get a month of the silent treatment.
Some things are worth the money, some arn't. GW currently isn't.

This. The $100 I spend on a night out with my wife brings in priceless couple dividends. Happy wife = less stress in my wife. $100 spent on GW gets an eyebrow raise and a few nerd comments; wife isn't angry but she sure isn't as happy as the candle-lit dinner would have made her.

 agnosto wrote:

help please wrote:


When I go out for a meal, and spent 100 pounds. I can normally expect a night of adult entertainment.
If I spend 100 pounds on GW models, I normally get a month of the silent treatment.
Some things are worth the money, some arn't. GW currently isn't.

This. The $100 I spend on a night out with my wife brings in priceless couple dividends. Happy wife = less stress in my wife. $100 spent on GW gets an eyebrow raise and a few nerd comments; wife isn't angry but she sure isn't as happy as the candle-lit dinner would have made her.

what if you're single?
Rainbow Dash goes to GW
Rainbow Dash doesn't go to GW
either way...I'm not happy