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 Tigerone wrote:
No, they are not pricing people out of the Hobby at all. Most hobbies are expensive and people understand that going into it. Pricing the people that have to find every loop hole in the rules or the newest maxed-out army is a different story. A person in the hobby understands the amount of time that you spend gluing and painting has a “value” to them that far exceeds that purchase price. They also understand that most models can be used for YEARS of gamming after painting. To the person that just wants to play a game and cares little or nothing about the “hobby” that changes armies every time the new super list comes out and also wants a 2000 point army right now. Then the answer is yes they are going to be priced out and good riddance to them!

I'm sorry, but I'm far from the person your claiming is going to be priced out. And yet, I'm getting priced out. Looking at the warrior price increases, I have absolutely no interest in it anymore. I was considering coming back to Warriors after I finished my Daemon's army, but the prices are just rediculous.

I'm a painter. I'm a converter. I'm a modeller. Yeah, I play for time to time. I'm one of those guys who won't play it unless its painted. The purchase price has exceeded its "value" to me. However, that isn't a bad thing anymore. By pricing GW's models so high, they've forced me to look at other game systems. Other companies, and even the second hand market. I'm still buying my miniatures at the "value" I have for them. Its just hurting GW's own bottom line.

 mattyrm wrote:
Just so your all aware, we don't actually drink warm beer.

And that's not just me by the way.. It's literally ever.

The closest you will get is cellar temperature.. And considering this country is fething freezing, it's closer to fridge than room temperature!

you don't know what cold is

edited by Manchu

 Rainbow Dash wrote:

 mattyrm wrote:
Just so your all aware, we don't actually drink warm beer.

And that's not just me by the way.. It's literally ever.

The closest you will get is cellar temperature.. And considering this country is fething freezing, it's closer to fridge than room temperature!

you don't know what cold is

This is cold enough thank you.
I,m trying to change the rear suspension on my mates car.
It's so cold, I can't feel my hands, and it's snowing again.

 loki old fart wrote:

 Rainbow Dash wrote:

 mattyrm wrote:
Just so your all aware, we don't actually drink warm beer.

And that's not just me by the way.. It's literally ever.

The closest you will get is cellar temperature.. And considering this country is fething freezing, it's closer to fridge than room temperature!

you don't know what cold is

This is cold enough thank you.
I,m trying to change the rear suspension on my mates car.
It's so cold, I can't feel my hands, and it's snowing again.

yeah that's average here, more so more up north where I used to live, averages -20 to -30 there in the winter (with or without wind, though better with wind)
and the snow, ahh the snow, I have pictures of it, where I live now we don't get much and it saddens me. Makes me feel like mother nature just isn't trying... Doesn't feel Canadian do not have to shovel your walkway twice a day in many cases, or to hear a parking garage collapse because of it.
I miss my hometown partly because of winter, though not all of it was good (I remember the coldest temperature I saw was -53, needless to say I didn't go out that day)

Well, a quick and informal poll among the folks I know that play fantasy wargames.... twelve people questioned.

All of them bought into the Reaper Bones Kickstarter.

All already have some Bones.

Seven of them bought into the Mantic Kings of War Kickstarter.

All seven already have some Kings of War.

Six use their KoW figures for WHFB.

Four also play Kings of War.

One plays KoW but not WHFB, but does play Mordheim.

Only two play the current edition of WHFB.

All seven have pretty much stopped buying GW, averaging one or two boxes over a year for three years.

None care whether it is an 'official' miniature or not. Reaper character models seem common.

I have more Mantic figures than any two other players combined....

Undead and dwarfs seem to have more Mantic figures than the elf player does - and the orc player is split 50/45/5 GW/Mantic/Reaper.

Five play WARMACHINE and/or Hordes.

So, priced out or not, sales of GW are down for this group.

The Auld Grump

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
Well, a quick and informal poll among the folks I know that play fantasy wargames.... twelve people questioned.

All of them bought into the Reaper Bones Kickstarter.

All already have some Bones.

Seven of them bought into the Mantic Kings of War Kickstarter.

All seven already have some Kings of War.

Six use their KoW figures for WHFB.

Four also play Kings of War.

One plays KoW but not WHFB, but does play Mordheim.

Only two play the current edition of WHFB.

All seven have pretty much stopped buying GW, averaging one or two boxes over a year for three years.

None care whether it is an 'official' miniature or not. Reaper character models seem common.

I have more Mantic figures than any two other players combined....

Undead and dwarfs seem to have more Mantic figures than the elf player does - and the orc player is split 50/45/5 GW/Mantic/Reaper.

Five play WARMACHINE and/or Hordes.

So, priced out or not, sales of GW are down for this group.

The Auld Grump

This sounds like a really good way of going about it, if you still want to play GW games. But I would really recomend you pick up Warmachine/hordes, I dont think you will be sorry. Its way way better then any WHFB has ever been.. And much more competative..

I use WHFB for many things, and I invested in the Bones kickstarter, as I am convinced it was A. A good product B. A good value C. Gives me a greater assortment of figures for my own fantasy skirmish game (30mm base y'all, holla, woot, and other highly juvenile buzz-words).

Oh and by the way, in Canada summertime comes once a year... Last year it came on a Tuesday.

Did the weirdest thing today, went to Chapters and bought a over sized 200 page full colour hard cover book for $32. Kind of odd a book half its size costs double despite having a higher print run. I guess thats all part of the "value" in reading eh Tigerone?

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
Well, a quick and informal poll among the folks I know that play fantasy wargames.... twelve people questioned.

All of them bought into the Reaper Bones Kickstarter.

All already have some Bones.

Seven of them bought into the Mantic Kings of War Kickstarter.

All seven already have some Kings of War.

Six use their KoW figures for WHFB.

Four also play Kings of War.

One plays KoW but not WHFB, but does play Mordheim.

Only two play the current edition of WHFB.

All seven have pretty much stopped buying GW, averaging one or two boxes over a year for three years.

None care whether it is an 'official' miniature or not. Reaper character models seem common.

I have more Mantic figures than any two other players combined....

Undead and dwarfs seem to have more Mantic figures than the elf player does - and the orc player is split 50/45/5 GW/Mantic/Reaper.

Five play WARMACHINE and/or Hordes.

So, priced out or not, sales of GW are down for this group.

The Auld Grump

So you questioned a group of general fantasy wargame players about their buying habits of general fantasy wargame products in a market that is ever expanding, and found out they are buying from a wider range of manufacturers.

That doesn't necessarily mean they're concerned about price, just that the phenomenal range of fantasy models that in recent years has popped up is getting attention. General fantasy wargame players would be stupid to ignore the likes of Reaper Bones and Mantic. Not to mention, if they've been playing for years, chances are they have large armies for Warhammer and are branching out into systems they haven't looked at until recently.

It would have been more relevant to this thread if you had, you know, asked them if the reason they stopped buying Warhammer product is because they're priced out.

Nucflash wrote:

This sounds like a really good way of going about it, if you still want to play GW games. But I would really recomend you pick up Warmachine/hordes, I dont think you will be sorry. Its way way better then any WHFB has ever been.. And much more competative..

Is that really a good thing? Do you not want your games to be relaxing?

It didn't take my group long at all to find out that competitive games just aren't fun enough to be worth the bother. It was around the second time we drew blood over Monopoly. What I'm saying is, please explain how the cut-throat nature of Warmahordes is a positive, because I just don't see it.


Of course, it could be the most cooperative-play game in the world and I still wouldn't play it. "Play like you've got a pair!"? Really?

 Ravenous D wrote:
Did the weirdest thing today, went to Chapters and bought a over sized 200 page full colour hard cover book for $32. Kind of odd a book half its size costs double despite having a higher print run. I guess thats all part of the "value" in reading eh Tigerone?

I bought all 3 Infinity books for less than the Warhammer Fantasy rulebook costs in Australia. Good thing I paid half that from the UK.

I don't think GW can ever hit a number to price people out of THE hobby. But they proper question more so is are they pricing their own selves out of the hobby.

GW used to focus very heavily on getting new players into the hobby, and then encouraging them to grow their armies (or play multiple armies). Currently, I think existing owners are their new targets and thus the strategy appears to be to milk as much from existing players as possible. But their current strategy seems to be very close to alienating both new and existing.

For existing players, I mean among those that haven't finally given up on GW, you have players not looking to expand beyond current armies because of the sheer cost of starting new armies. I remember when I started playing just as third edition Warhammer was released, many players wanted to play multiple armies. In addition, you are dealing with a ruleset that hasn't really changed a lot at it's core level for almost thirty years. In other words, there is not much new and exciting. Finally, longer term players are just plain worn out on the new edition/new army book/obsolete existing army units to introduce new ones treadmill that GW just can't seem to get out of. At least they used to have specialist games, but now the seem to have abandoned that as well.

As for getting newer players into the hobby, Warmachine and Flames of War seem to be the biggest competitors here followed by a smattering of skirmish level games (Infinity and Malifaux to name a couple). Let's look at some 16-year old looking to get into the hobby and what they see today to enter into a new game:

Warhammer $248.50 (Rulebook @ $74.25, Army Book @ $45.50, 4 State Troops @$99 and Empire General @29.75)
Warmachine: $79.99 (Rulebook@$29.99 and Battlegroup@$49.99) - You don't need army book really because all relevant information in included on cards with model.
Flames of War: $108.00 (Rulebooks@$60.00 and Rifle Company@$58)
Infinity: $83.98 (Rulebook@$44.99 and Starter Box@$38.99)

There is already a pretty hefty disparity in the entry level pricing above, but it gets even worse if you consider expanding to the recommended play levels for a viable (not starter force). For all three except GW, not much more is needed to expand what you started with to have a viable competitive force. In fact, most can reach that for about another $100 investment. For GW, you are talking about $400-$600 more to reach a viable size for a competitive army. Heck, the GW rulebook and army book alone cost more than starting up all the other games with models (I personally believe the $75 rulebook was the dumbest idea I have ever seen in this business).

There are those that would argue you could buy the basic starter sets for Warhammer, for example and get started for $100. But, as a shop owner recently said to me, that only works if you want to play Skaven or High Elves... Two choices among 15. So the odds are far greater that the player will want something other than those two. In the case of all GW competitors mentioned above, that starting cost is close to the same for ANY army you want to start (i.e., whatever faction/army the player has an interest in).

I think GW's view of THE HOBBY, has become tainted by their own stores. When executives walk into one of their stores and see only GW, it is so easy to forget there are now very strong competitive offering today compared to what it was like just ten years ago. First, GW is not THE HOBBY (contrary to their distorted views) and they are not the only ones producing good games and miniatures anymore.

Not to mention they seem to be making a serious of decisions lately (one man stores, no playing tables in stores, eliminating tournaments, cutting of Oceania region from regional prices, moving to finecrap, etc.) that all seem to be contrary to conducting good business. No, I think GW suffers from a very insular view of their position in the market now (much like Kodak did with camera film) that is starting to come home to roost. The new WoC prices are scary in that they seem to reflect where the next price increase will be headed (I mean $60 for a troll model, you can't get anymore insane than that) and that is very close, I believe, to breaking the back of many GW supporters.

For me personally, I am one who could easily afford the new GW prices, but have chosen to finally give up on them. I am just as happy painting a unit of Chaos Warriors, as a platoon of Shermans, a group of Warjacks or a warband from Oceania. I personally like to eventually play with what I paint, and it is getting increasingly harder in my area to find anyone playing GW regularly anymore, but can get a pick up game of Warmachine or Flames of War any night of the week. Even if GW was played regularly, as long as the alternative stay as well, I would choose the alternatives over GW.

Honestly, up until WoC, I was still a little on the fence. But when I see a $25 plastic foot model, $60 troll, and $85 beast or even a $40 chariot (when the elf one is under $30), I realize that GW is not reaching a point of just overpricing, but pricing insanity. For comparison, look at any Ogre Kingdoms named character for $40 (vs. the $60 troll) or the Ogre Kingdoms Thundertusk at $57.75 (versus $85 for the Chaos Beast) just to see how the pricing doesn't make any sense whatsoever except to gouge existing players. No one will convince me that Ogre Kingdoms outsells Chaos, yet GW is really sticking it to Chaos players with this new release.

No, my friends, I think the release of WoC and the insane pricing is a foreshadowing of the price increase that will be hitting later this year across the board. GW executives are losing sight of reality (much like Kodak executives did) and really do believe they can set the price at any level and people will lap it up because the are the ONLY company that produces good wargaming miniatures.

Just to note - infinitys entry price is only the cost of a starter. The rules are free.

Technically, so are Malifaux's.

A playable box set costs about $35.00 retail and the rules are downloadable free from Wyrd.

Just to note: GW still sells specialist games, they just don't get advertised. There are a lot of D&D players who would probably get into those games if GW realized there was a much larger audience than hobbyists and people who like to roll dice. They also need to cater to EVERYONE who follows their lines, new and old players alike.

There are a few reasons why I'm sticking with GW, and a major one is accessability. There aren't that many LGS in NYC other than GW, so it's hard to buy Warmahordes or Malifaux since shipping will make it harder to pay for, and there's no guarantee that the minis will arrive completely safe. The one advantage GW has over other mini companies is currently accessibility. If you want to go buy Warmahordes, you must order online or be lucky enough to live/be in travel distance of a LGS. However, if any other companies get shops like GW, then they're going to boom while GW lurks in the gutters, begging for $100 dollars.

My apologies for any terrible repetition.

 -Loki- wrote:

So you questioned a group of general fantasy wargame players about their buying habits of general fantasy wargame products in a market that is ever expanding, and found out they are buying from a wider range of manufacturers.

That doesn't necessarily mean they're concerned about price, just that the phenomenal range of fantasy models that in recent years has popped up is getting attention. General fantasy wargame players would be stupid to ignore the likes of Reaper Bones and Mantic. Not to mention, if they've been playing for years, chances are they have large armies for Warhammer and are branching out into systems they haven't looked at until recently.

It would have been more relevant to this thread if you had, you know, asked them if the reason they stopped buying Warhammer product is because they're priced out.

Maybe they aren't concerned about the price, and just prefer the aesthetics of the other companies, or are just saturated with GW figures and expanding for variety.

However, there's a reasonable trend that they are buying less from GW and more from other companies, and it's a reasonable assumption that that may be because of value; they are seeing more value from other companies. Especially if they are still playing WHF but using figures from elsewhere (and potentially half of the cost).

It definitely shows that GW is losing the market dominance it's enjoyed for so long.

Nucflash wrote:

This sounds like a really good way of going about it, if you still want to play GW games. But I would really recomend you pick up Warmachine/hordes, I dont think you will be sorry. Its way way better then any WHFB has ever been.. And much more competative..

Does it have blocks of units and armies in ranks? I thought WM/H was a skirmish game?

Being much more competetive than WFB is a bad thing to me!

 -Loki- wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
Well, a quick and informal poll among the folks I know that play fantasy wargames.... twelve people questioned.

All of them bought into the Reaper Bones Kickstarter.

All already have some Bones.

Seven of them bought into the Mantic Kings of War Kickstarter.

All seven already have some Kings of War.

Six use their KoW figures for WHFB.

Four also play Kings of War.

One plays KoW but not WHFB, but does play Mordheim.

Only two play the current edition of WHFB.

All seven have pretty much stopped buying GW, averaging one or two boxes over a year for three years.

None care whether it is an 'official' miniature or not. Reaper character models seem common.

I have more Mantic figures than any two other players combined....

Undead and dwarfs seem to have more Mantic figures than the elf player does - and the orc player is split 50/45/5 GW/Mantic/Reaper.

Five play WARMACHINE and/or Hordes.

So, priced out or not, sales of GW are down for this group.

The Auld Grump

So you questioned a group of general fantasy wargame players about their buying habits of general fantasy wargame products in a market that is ever expanding, and found out they are buying from a wider range of manufacturers.

That doesn't necessarily mean they're concerned about price, just that the phenomenal range of fantasy models that in recent years has popped up is getting attention. General fantasy wargame players would be stupid to ignore the likes of Reaper Bones and Mantic. Not to mention, if they've been playing for years, chances are they have large armies for Warhammer and are branching out into systems they haven't looked at until recently.

It would have been more relevant to this thread if you had, you know, asked them if the reason they stopped buying Warhammer product is because they're priced out.

I did ask them - and they all said that the reason they don't buy GW is the price.

All twelve.

The reason that I did not post that is because I thought that it was obvious. But, just to make you happy, there you go, consider it posted.

However, to put it on a more accurate scale - the most popular game among half this group is not WHFB, nor is it KoW, but the ancient TSR Battlesystem. They still meet every week to play a massive game in the basement of an old Armory (now a restaurant). *EDIT* Those six players are all over sixty, some are in their seventies. They consider me a Young Grump.... And I will never see fifty again.

HotT is making inroads with them. (I have never played Hordes of the Things, and know nothing about it, but it is keeping folks that have been gaming longer than I have happy, so it bears mention....)

Four of them have most of their units pure Ral Partha. (They still have the Steam Cannon and the War Machine.) Modern fantasy miniatures would look out of scale. Nekkid orcs have their own units....

Odd figures include Foundry and some minifigs.

The unusual thing for those four was not that they were not buying GW but that they are buying Mantic and Bones.
At a guess they were low enough in price to trigger a nostalgia reaction.

Some had not bought any GW since the 'nineties. And cited price as their reason, way back then. (Yes, folks have been complaining about GW prices for twenty years, but enough have continued buying to keep GW in business.)

The Auld Grump


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Deunstephe wrote:
Just to note: GW still sells specialist games, they just don't get advertised. There are a lot of D&D players who would probably get into those games if GW realized there was a much larger audience than hobbyists and people who like to roll dice. They also need to cater to EVERYONE who follows their lines, new and old players alike.

There are a few reasons why I'm sticking with GW, and a major one is accessability. There aren't that many LGS in NYC other than GW, so it's hard to buy Warmahordes or Malifaux since shipping will make it harder to pay for, and there's no guarantee that the minis will arrive completely safe. The one advantage GW has over other mini companies is currently accessibility. If you want to go buy Warmahordes, you must order online or be lucky enough to live/be in travel distance of a LGS. However, if any other companies get shops like GW, then they're going to boom while GW lurks in the gutters, begging for $100 dollars.

My apologies for any terrible repetition.

Heck - some of the Specialist games are available as free downloads - I run Mordheim and Necromunda on a regular basis.

I think that GW should use them as entry points. They are the (in my not at all humble opinion) the best games that GW has. And the rules are excellent for running campaigns, so it is a part of the hobby that can stick around.

I have not played the new WHFB at all, but I ran a Mordheim league on Saturday. Six players, all under the age of twenty.

Admittedly, most were using my miniatures, but two brought their own - undead and orcs.

The Auld Grump

 Deunstephe wrote:
Just to note: GW still sells specialist games, they just don't get advertised. There are a lot of D&D players who would probably get into those games if GW realized there was a much larger audience than hobbyists and people who like to roll dice. They also need to cater to EVERYONE who follows their lines, new and old players alike.

There are a few reasons why I'm sticking with GW, and a major one is accessability. There aren't that many LGS in NYC other than GW, so it's hard to buy Warmahordes or Malifaux since shipping will make it harder to pay for, and there's no guarantee that the minis will arrive completely safe. The one advantage GW has over other mini companies is currently accessibility. If you want to go buy Warmahordes, you must order online or be lucky enough to live/be in travel distance of a LGS. However, if any other companies get shops like GW, then they're going to boom while GW lurks in the gutters, begging for $100 dollars.

My apologies for any terrible repetition.

I don't think you will see too many RPG gamers - especially D&D - moving to GW games in general, though largely it is because GW's design is at odds with D&D. That has always been the anchor for WHFB in the US. The artwork just doesn't mesh up with what most of them feel fantasy should look like.

Regarding the game store - I don't think you will see any other company even think of doing stores like GW, especially in the US. They just don't make sense here, and if you are unable to find LGS in NYC...I think you might need to double check things. In addition to a half dozen or so stores in the city itself, you have the Warstore out on Long Island (bit of a drive for an urbanite I guess) and some of the bigger game clubs like Metro Wargamers. Stores like the Compleat Strategist even offer a discount card to help make them more competitive with online stores.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
However, to put it on a more accurate scale - the most popular game among half this group is not WHFB, nor is it KoW, but the ancient TSR Battlesystem.

Still one of the best games out there.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
However, to put it on a more accurate scale - the most popular game among half this group is not WHFB, nor is it KoW, but the ancient TSR Battlesystem.

Still one of the best games out there.

'T's how I know the group.

Specifically the second edition of Battlesystem - the one that uses the 'bucket full of dice' method. Still lots of fun.

The Auld Grump

I don't think you will see too many RPG gamers - especially D&D - moving to GW games in general, though largely it is because GW's design is at odds with D&D. That has always been the anchor for WHFB in the US. The artwork just doesn't mesh up with what most of them feel fantasy should look like.

What?! I have never heard a gamer say this. I know tons of folks who play DnD that don't play anything GW, and they say that table top war gaming just isn't there thing. What I have found is a great number who've never really played it, or tried it out. GW investing more into specialist games, and other avenues besides WH, 40k, LotR might bridge some into table top war gaming, but at the very least could help expand their basket of services, and customer base.

Warhammer $248.50 (Rulebook @ $74.25, Army Book @ $45.50, 4 State Troops @$99 and Empire General @29.75)
Warmachine: $79.99 (Rulebook@$29.99 and Battlegroup@$49.99) - You don't need army book really because all relevant information in included on cards with model.
Flames of War: $108.00 (Rulebooks@$60.00 and Rifle Company@$58)
Infinity: $83.98 (Rulebook@$44.99 and Starter Box@$38.99)

Couple of take aways... This proves just how out of step GW is on rule books costs. They are beyond asinine. They are also the highest on start up costs, but still competitive, if barely. It's also worth pointing out that WMH models are the same price as GW, but you don't need as many. However over time you can easily spend just as much. This is a clever approach, make a skirmish game that needs fewer models, but price them as much as GW.

Worked for me with Confrontation - tiny expenditure to get into it, ended up with 13 warbands, several of them fairly massive.

There were so many sculpts I jut couldn't say no to...

I personally feel like GW has priced me out of the hobby. I haven't played GW's flagship games for several years. My primary game became Flames of War with a bit of Hordes to spice things up now and then. I would still buy some GW models now and then to fill out some of my old armies, but now I'm not even interested in doing that. It's not that I couldn't necessarily afford to buy a few GW boxes, it's just that I feel like the other games I like give me such a higher ratio of enjoyment to cost that I can't really justify buying GW stuff anymore.

The one GW thing I do still like to play and might actually spend a small amount of money on would be Specialist Games, specifically Battlefleet Gothic. I also really like the ForgeWorld Death Korps of Krieg miniatures, so if I was going to buy anything it would probably some of them (especially now that regular GW minis are now resin and in some cases just as expensive as ForgeWorld items).

 MisterMoon wrote:
It's also worth pointing out that WMH models are the same price as GW, but you don't need as many. However over time you can easily spend just as much.

While your statement is true, it is also highly misleading by leaving out several important pieces of information.

1. You don't need to spend GW money in WMH to play.
2. You don't need to spend GW money in WMH to play competitively.
3. If one is spending GW levels in WMH, due to (as you correctly indicate) needing fewer models, you will have either:
(a) - Most options in one faction.
(b) - Multiple faction armies.
Ergo: If one is spending GW levels in WMH, the player is far more invested into the system than a player spending GW money at the one army mark. Most likely, they liked the system enough, and felt that despite price, the product was providing enough value to buy a second (or third) army!.

-edit- fixed quotes.

 MisterMoon wrote:
Couple of take aways... This proves just how out of step GW is on rule books costs. They are beyond asinine. They are also the highest on start up costs, but still competitive, if barely. It's also worth pointing out that WMH models are the same price as GW, but you don't need as many. However over time you can easily spend just as much. This is a clever approach, make a skirmish game that needs fewer models, but price them as much as GW.

Exactly. GW seems to forget what Battlefront (Flames of War) has not - that the books are there to help sell models.

Let's look at Flames of War third edition, for example. First, when they released it if you had the 2nd edition hardcover rules you got a third edition mini rulebook (the one in Open Fire boxed set) for FREE. Yes, free. Secondly, the core third edition rules is three books - A hardcover rulebook, soft-cvoer forces book for 1944 (their version of an army book) and a softcover hobby book. GW could have done a similar things with rulebook, background book, and hobby book. Instead, you have to lug around a 15lb. tome that is heavier than a dictionary to play you games. If you want the connivance of a smaller book, you have to buy a $100 box set to get it.

The $45 for the army book is in line with other manufacturer's... Flames of War hardcovers are $45 as are Warmahordes. The difference, however, is you don't need them to start the game since FoW comes with the generic 1944 forces book and Warmahordes has the unit cards.

At GWs scale, they should undercut everyone on the books and make it back on the minis. Better yet, a lot of 40k players I know (us old timers) actually got into 40k because of the original version of Space Hulk. A lot of Warhammer players got there from Mordheim. Perhaps GW overlooks how these stand alone games can have an impact on getting people into the wider hobby and they should consider that in the future.

1. You don't need to spend GW money in WMH to play.

This is basically what I said.

2. You don't need to spend GW money in WMH to play competitively.

Besides the point, but yeah. If playing a competitively is really your thing, WMH is a better choice for a laundry list of reasons other than price.

3. If one is spending GW levels in WMH, due to (as you correctly indicate) needing fewer models, you will have either:
(a) - Most options in one faction.
(b) - Multiple faction armies.
Ergo: If one is spending GW levels in WMH, the player is far more invested into the system than a player spending GW money at the one army mark. Most likely, they liked the system enough, and felt that despite price, the product was providing enough value to buy a second (or third) army!.

I think this falls into line with the "over time" bit; in that you CAN spend just as much, but no, you don't have to. This is also falling into derived value. Since WMH and WH/40k are different games, with a different scope and depth, someone might feel X dollars of GW is always better than X dollars of WMH, and vice versa.

In the end there is nothing escaping the fact that the box of plastic in both games is pretty much the same price. What value you get out of the same money spent in either is up to the gamer. There are some structural issues with GW price which are the main issue to me. Start up, and rules books prices are key imo.

 MisterMoon wrote:
In the end there is nothing escaping the fact that the box of plastic in both games is pretty much the same price. What value you get out of the same money spent in either is up to the gamer. There are some structural issues with GW price which are the main issue to me. Start up, and rules books prices are key imo.

They won't be the same price for long if the new WoC prices are the new standard. Hell, I'm not sure you'll find a 40mm based model going for $60 anywhere besides GW.

 MisterMoon wrote:
...

3. If one is spending GW levels in WMH, due to (as you correctly indicate) needing fewer models, you will have either:
(a) - Most options in one faction.
(b) - Multiple faction armies.
Ergo: If one is spending GW levels in WMH, the player is far more invested into the system than a player spending GW money at the one army mark. Most likely, they liked the system enough, and felt that despite price, the product was providing enough value to buy a second (or third) army!.

I think this falls into line with the "over time" bit; in that you CAN spend just as much, but no, you don't have to. This is also falling into derived value. Since WMH and WH/40k are different games, with a different scope and depth, someone might feel X dollars of GW is always better than X dollars of WMH, and vice versa.

In the end there is nothing escaping the fact that the box of plastic in both games is pretty much the same price. What value you get out of the same money spent in either is up to the gamer. There are some structural issues with GW price which are the main issue to me. Start up, and rules books prices are key imo.

This tangentially brings up a very important point about the difference between GW and other companies such as PP or CB: it's almost impossible to compare like to like, because their competitors generally don't sell the same thing. We tend to lump a lot of things together that are functionally similar, but the costs to design and manufacture are very different.

GW produces (mainly) injection molded hard plastics (certainly for all major troop units now). Expensive to make the molds, such plastics are also very, very cheap to produce once the initial costs have been expended to make the steel molds as the medium is a pittance.

PP and CB (among others) produce either metal models or non-injection molded "soft" plastics (restic, trollcast, etc). These are both more expensive to make in terms of far more perishable molds (rubber molds, unlike steel molds, wear out quite quickly), and more expensive in terms of materials (metal certainly, others less so).

Now, it's clear that GW and their competitors write their rules to accommodate these things: PP doesn't release units in injection molded plastic as any given army of a given faction will generally not include duplicate units. GW games generally feature substantial duplication of units.

Note that there is a wrinkle in the traditional answer that "well, you can't compare skirmish games to mass battle games"; a number of newer companies are poised to begin encroaching on the mas battle territory as the cost to produce injection molded kits has dropped substantially.

Compare like for like then. Perry hard plastic (styrene) wars of the roses infantry against warhammer empire free company, both sculpted by the Perry brothers. Very similar subject material.

One comes in at 40 men for £18 with no discount.
The other is 20 men for £20.50 and is one of the cheaper GW box sets at present.